Sega Saturn HDTV cable?

[the_steadster]

RGB carries video signals separately preserving ALL the quality your machine can display.

No, it can't. RGB, as with all SDTV conections is limited by the resolution of the Television. Without using VGA or DVI (Which both transmit colour information seperately as RGB, albeit rather differently in DVI) you cannot get greater than 480/576 lines. Even if the saturn can run at 6 megapixels, you cannot possibly have more than 480 lines displayed, as that is all that the saturns encoder chip supports.

It also loses some quality over what is being internally processed - Excluding DVI, the RGB information is being transmitted via an analogue signal - so there must be a D->A conversion somewhere along the line, and everytime something is converted from D->A, or vice versa, some quality is lost.

RGB is mighty good quality, but a lot of stuff spoken about it is plain wrong. Yes it's the best quality many consoles can practically display, but in theory there are better solutions, which simply aren't implemented

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

We all know that the Saturn doesn't do real Hi-Def but you can tell the difference in Saturn resolution from game to game. There are over 20 games that run in the Saturn's highest resolution. On a normal TV via RGB this looks stunning sort of like the image from a DVD player. The RGB on or Off option does do something as the image quality on Vampire Savoir changes. I have no idea since I'm not tech nut when it comes to RGB (I know what it is though) but it does alter the image. I now play me Saturn on a TFT VGA monitor with some amazing results with the high resolution games such as Dead or Alive (higher than the PS version), VF2, Winter Heat, Hi-ten bomberman (Saturn Bomberman) and so on. Low resolution games or standard resolution games look normal though :(

Anyway, forget all specs and go from your eyes and you'll find that the bottom line is that the Saturn can produce a higher looking resolution image than the PS or N64. As for the interlacing it really does make stuff look nicer but for some odd reason the interlacing on Sonic Wings Special squashes the image down in to a box.

Okay, I decided to do some looking into this since I realized i didn't really know what I was talking about. Sorry I didn't keep track of the websites I found so that I could provide links, but if anyone's interested they should be able to find things themselves with Google.

The first thing I discovered is that there's just a ton of confusion, not only about the Saturn's resolutions, but all systems. I don't really know where people are ultimately getting their information, but there's a lot of contradictory stuff out there. The 704x480 spec was common enough, though, that I'm sure it's true, however some specs sheets assigned the 704x480 resolution specifically to the VDP2, which is the the graphics processor that handled backgrounds. Of course, the backgrounds make up a signficant portion of many games, so games that used that resolution even for the background would look good. And I found that a lot of games *MAY* use that resolution. There's plenty of disagreement over which ones do, but yeah, probably Virtua Fighter 2 or Dead Or Alive would be the best games to look at.

I also found that the Playstation can indeed do 640x480 and this was used in-game in a number of games. Tobal No.1 is a good example since it's a 3D fighter like the examples from the Saturn.

Some N64 games also used the 640x480 resolution in-game. There's not really any 3D fighters on the N64, but Perfect Dark and Star Wars: Rogue Squadron both use 640x480 in-game, with the expansion pak.

In my own experience, I'd say it's really hard to tell these things. Many Saturn games really do look really great, but that seems more like a product of well drawn stuff and good color-choice. It's really the Saturn's 2D games that I think look best and those ones generally seem to use the lower resolutions. The N64's 2D games usually don't look as good--even even when I compare both systems through s-video since I can't get RGB out of my N64--even though they're using very similar resolutions; they just have worse art design. For 3D stuff, I find that Saturn game soften look very messy and have horribly blocky textures, whereas on the N64 while things are often blurry they still look cleaner and more attractive. This is all on average, though; I could easily come up with examples on either system that would be exceptions, which is why I think it comes down to art design more than to technical specs. The Saturn just had more of those pretty games from companies like Sega and Capcom, the N64 had more shitty looking games from Rare and Activision. I don't have a Playstation, so I really can't say how I think it compares.


...word is bondage...

[Phinn]

So, have I got this right...

The various resolutions quoted for the Saturn and other consoles refer the capabilities of the machine's graphic card, not the display resolution.

For instance, according to GameFAQs, the Mega Drive outputted a resolution of 320x224 and the Super Famicom did 512x448. However, these resolutions are 'upscaled' or 'downscaled' for SD video output. If, like the Saturn, the internal graphics resolution is however, then the picture will look more detailed. The best you can hope for, however, is standard definition with progressive scan (480p (NTSC) or 576p (PAL)) since non-next gen consoles cannot output HD video signals. This then would also include the Gamecube, PS2 and Xbox.

[the_steadster]

So, have I got this right...

The various resolutions quoted for the Saturn and other consoles refer the capabilities of the machine's graphic card, not the display resolution.

For instance, according to GameFAQs, the Mega Drive outputted a resolution of 320x224 and the Super Famicom did 512x448. However, these resolutions are 'upscaled' or 'downscaled' for SD video output. If, like the Saturn, the internal graphics resolution is however, then the picture will look more detailed. The best you can hope for, however, is standard definition with progressive scan (480p (NTSC) or 576p (PAL)) since non-next gen consoles cannot output HD video signals. This then would also include the Gamecube, PS2 and Xbox.

Your pretty much there, except that using component the XBOX can do 720/1080, and the PS2 can somehow do "fake" 1080(I don't know the details of this however).

Excluding Component though, You're correct.

[Iggy]

Yeh, Gran Turismo 4 can run in 1080 but it looks pretty terrible, but, extremly sharp, I don't see how that can be faked though.

[Sally]

Yeh, Gran Turismo 4 can run in 1080 but it looks pretty terrible, but, extremly sharp, I don't see how that can be faked though.

It's actually 480i upscaled to 1080i. The ps2 doesn't actually have enough ram to hold 2 1080i images in memory. What they do is line double a 480i image. So they basicly make 4 copies of each pixel before it's broadcast.

[Phinn]

Your pretty much there, except that using component the XBOX can do 720/1080, and the PS2 can somehow do "fake" 1080(I don't know the details of this however).

Excluding Component though, You're correct.

Okay, here goes...

4th gen (MD, SFC): 480i RGB
5th gen (PS1, SS, N64): 480i RGB

6th gen:
Dreamcast: 480i RGB (640x480 VGA with adaptor)
PlayStation2: 480p Component (Gran Turismo 4 is upscaled to do 1080i Component)
Gamecube: 480p Component (DOL-001 models only)
Xbox: 720p/1080i Component

7th gen:
Xbox 360: 720p/1080i Component
PlayStation3: Up to 1080p x 2 HDMI (apparently)
Revolution: ?

[the_steadster]

Okay, here goes...

4th gen (MD, SFC): 480i RGB
5th gen (PS1, SS, N64): 480i RGB

6th gen:
Dreamcast: 480i RGB (640x480 VGA with adaptor)
PlayStation2: 480p Component (Gran Turismo 4 is upscaled to do 1080i Component)
Gamecube: 480p Component (DOL-001 models only)
Xbox: 720p/1080i Component

7th gen:
Xbox 360: 720p/1080i Component
PlayStation3: Up to 1080p x 2 HDMI (apparently)
Revolution: ?

Yup, except that
Dreamcast (640x480)p VGA RGB is actually the best the dreamcast can do - the VGA output isn't interlaced

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

To clarify what the_steadster just said: VGA = 480p RGB

The N64 doesn't output RGB stadard, it needs to be modded. A mod for the Gamecube (or its cable actually) allows it to output VGA (480p RGB).

Also, I'm of the opinion that your "generations" are one short. Back when the Colecovision and Atari 5200 were coming out, they were called "third wave" systems; the first wave, I assume, were the discrete logic consoles. Most people don't see things that way these days, though.


...word is bondage...

[the_steadster]

To clarify what the_steadster just said: VGA = 480p RGB

The N64 doesn't output RGB stadard, it needs to be modded. A mod for the Gamecube (or its cable actually) allows it to output VGA (480p RGB).

The reason I left the VGA as 640x480 is that As I understand it, VGA has a definate horizontal and vertical resolution (640 pixels by 480 pixels) whereas 480i, as in RGB scart, only has a definate number of lines (480)

[GaijinPunch]

I now play me Saturn on a TFT VGA monitor with some amazing results with the high resolution games such as Dead or Alive (higher than the PS version), VF2, Winter Heat, Hi-ten bomberman (Saturn Bomberman) and so on. Low resolution games or standard resolution games look normal though :(

2D games look like absolute ass though... speakign from experience. No TFT can handle the 15khz signal, so haas to modify it, and do a pretty terrible job on 15khz non-interlaced games (basically all Saturn 2D games get pixelated). W/ the PS2 and other current gem machines, older 2D remakes (Metal Slug 3-4, all the Sonic Remakes, Mushihime-sama, Ibara) are running in interlaced mode which looks superior on the medium it was intended for (an RGB monitor) but not as bad as it would look on a TFT in non-interlaced mode.

It's really hard to be a retro gamer and "properly" display old games. It is impossible to do it with one TV, AFAIK. Do they have any CRT HDTV's in the UK that handle 15khz non-interlaced and 31khz progressive signals with SCART? I don't keep up w/ European TVs as they're out of my grasp. I would imagine a 16:9 CRT would be a bitch to TATE properly.

[Calpis]

I haven't heard of a CRT HDTVs that doesn't handle 15-31KHz, even here in the US.

[GaijinPunch]

EDIT: made it make a bit more sense.

[Yakumo]

2D games look like absolute ass though... speakign from experience. No TFT can handle the 15khz signal, so haas to modify it, and do a pretty terrible job on 15khz non-interlaced games (basically all Saturn 2D games get pixelated).

That's what I thought until I bought my new Mitsubish monitor. Here's a picture of the Mega CD running on it. Not pixelated at all.

The Saturn looks better since it doesn't have those boarders around the image like the Meag Drive/ Mega CD.

Yakumo

[GaijinPunch]

Not pixelated at all.

Yeah, but where are the scalines?

[sayin999]

yakumo is that by anychance a multi sync monitor? Cause mine can actually do that.

[Yakumo]

Yeah, but where are the scalines?

Ah, well you got a point there but it does honestly look good. I do prefear the scanlines though

yakumo is that by anychance a multi sync monitor? Cause mine can actually do that.

Yes it is but it can be a pain in the arse with Saturn games that change resolution during the game. The screen will shoot off to one side then re-center its self every time the resolution changes. Sort of how old wide screen TVs would keep changing the image every time a wide screen TV add would come on.

Yakumo

[Sweater Fish Deluxe]

The reason I left the VGA as 640x480 is that As I understand it, VGA has a definate horizontal and vertical resolution (640 pixels by 480 pixels) whereas 480i, as in RGB scart, only has a definate number of lines (480)

Yeah, I guess that's true, but again that's internal resolution just like 320x224 is for the Saturn. The actual output to the monitor is 480p, with no particular horizontal resolution just like for any other analog screen.

Yeah, but where are the scalines?

That's what's nice about the XRGB converters, they have a virtual scanlines option that looks pretty good. An XRGB makes a real nice progressive image out of RGB signals, s-video and composite look considerably worse.


...word is bondage...

[GaijinPunch]

That's what's nice about the XRGB converters, they have a virtual scanlines option that looks pretty good. An XRGB makes a real nice progressive image out of RGB signals, s-video and composite look considerably worse.

Yeah, I've seen those. They are very nice for true 15khz signals on a 31khz monitor (like what Yakumo's doing). The down side is trying to add scanlines to a 15khz interlaced signal (like most PS2 ports of older games) through an XRGB. It will blind you @_@.

[Anthaemia.]

If the highest resolution was used in game, it probably would have been for a background layer. Like possibly Virtua Fighter 3 would have used that mode for the backgrounds. The guy in that link that Iggy posted seems to imply that Virtua Fighter 2 uses 704x480 in the backgrounds.

I was always under the impression that all of Virtua Fighter 2 ran in the Saturn's high resolution mode, and if memory serves me correctly this also applies to the backgrounds in later AM2 conversions such as Fighting Vipers - only the characters were of a lower resolution in those later titles.

As for VF3, nothing has ever been officially confirmed regarding its exact performance levels. However, it's been suggested (by an inside source, perhaps?) that it was pushing 750,000 polygons per second in 320x224. However, the frame rate was half its predecessor, but with figures like that who really cares? After all, was Tekken 3 on the PlayStation truly arcade perfect?

While this may seem a disappointment on paper, the fact is that Model 3 didn't exactly have a massive advantage in its resolution over the Saturn (wasn't it 496x384?), which makes VF2 and those high resolution console games look all the more remarkable for their time... and considering the difficulty of programming for the system! Does anybody feel bad for criticising the missing bridge in Shun's stage now?