Megadrive SVP games

[StarWolf]

I was reading the artice on the 32X over at Sega Base, and it mentions the SVP chip.

Although Virtua Racing was the only SVP chip game released, Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA were also in development, apparently.

So, does anyone know how far they got with Daytona or VF? It'd be pretty impressive to see these running on a MD. Any old magazine screen shots or anything out there in the world?

[Yakumo]

daytona and VF were in development for the 32X. VF actually came out and there are very early shots of what's said to be the 32X version but nothing on the Mega Drive.

yakumo

[Johnny]

I remember reading something about a Daytona USA port to 32X on an old UK Sega Power magazine.

Actually, i promised to take pics of that mag some time ago. Gonna try to find it this week.

EDITED: I remember now that i already posted the pics. It's on the same topic i posted pics about early Gran Turismo 2000 pics.

[kingofthelobster]

I've been searching all around and have yet to turn up anything, so I figured I'd post this question of mine in a topic like this. Does anyone know the specs on the SVP processor? Was it actually designed for outputting polygon graphics or was it just a general purpose processor that was powerful enough to push some polys?

[socialdrone]

i have read that Star Wars Arcade might have been worked on as well. its also possible Wing War or Tecwar / Netmerc might have been planned or in development?....since they both use the sega model 1 board. virtua fighter 2 was released on the genesis, but it was more of a 2d street fighter knock off than anything else.

I've been searching all around and have yet to turn up anything, so I figured I'd post this question of mine in a topic like this. Does anyone know the specs on the SVP processor? Was it actually designed for outputting polygon graphics or was it just a general purpose processor that was powerful enough to push some polys?

the SVP is a Hitachi SH-1 32-bit risc processor, i think. the saturn has a sh1 chip, but not the 32x.

[kingofthelobster]

the SVP is a Hitachi SH-1 32-bit risc processor, i think. the saturn has a sh1 chip, but not the 32x.

The Saturn used dual SH-2's in conjunction with a single SH-1, the 32x used dual SH-2's as well.

[Yakumo]

I've been searching all around and have yet to turn up anything, so I figured I'd post this question of mine in a topic like this. Does anyone know the specs on the SVP processor? Was it actually designed for outputting polygon graphics or was it just a general purpose processor that was powerful enough to push some polys?

The specs are written on the back of the Japanese box to Virtual Racing. It says it can push up to 9000 polygons per second plus adds 12 channels of sound. I'm sure there's more to it but that's all it says on the back of the box.

Yakumo

[ccovell]

I read in the magazines back in the day that the SVP was merely a DSP, and not a RISC processor or co-processor.

Here are some specs I took off a site; don't know if it's accurate. Other sites say the SVP uses an SH-1; perhaps they're confusing it with the 32x.

Chip Command Type: DSP, 1 command, 1 clock
Speed / Instruction per second: 23MHz (23 mips)
ROM: I-ram (instruction RAM) 2048 bytes
Polygons per second 300-500 (16 colours) with 4 interrupts
RAM: D-RAM (optional installation)
Sound expansion: 2 channels PWM (pulse wave Modulation)
Data BUS bandwidth: internal / external 16 bits

[socialdrone]

I read in the magazines back in the day that the SVP was merely a DSP, and not a RISC processor or co-processor.

Here are some specs I took off a site; don't know if it's accurate. Other sites say the SVP uses an SH-1; perhaps they're confusing it with the 32x.

Chip Command Type: DSP, 1 command, 1 clock
Speed / Instruction per second: 23MHz (23 mips)
ROM: I-ram (instruction RAM) 2048 bytes
Polygons per second 300-500 (16 colours) with 4 interrupts
RAM: D-RAM (optional installation)
Sound expansion: 2 channels PWM (pulse wave Modulation)
Data BUS bandwidth: internal / external 16 bits

i read somewhere that in australia the SVP was marketed as the DSP.
also i found an old thread here, http://eidolon.dnsalias.net/ta/20020...ges/11696.html , which touches on the whole dsp vs risc issue.

personally i think the virtua racing cart might have been created to emulate/copy the model 1 board. in my opinion the SVP could be hitachi's attempt to make something like the NEC V60 to use with the genesis..be it sh-1, sh-2...or some thing else.

from what ive read, i take the main reason people have had trouble emulating the model 1 board is lack information on Fujitsu's TGP MB86233...which i think handles the 3d graphics.

and from the above link one of the reasons people (or at least one person) have had trouble emulating the genesis virtua racing is there is a lack of information reguarding the MPR-16420-T

so maybe its possible that the tgp mb86233 and the mpr-16420-t serve a similar function?




i also read somewhere that the model 1 and virtua racing was co-developed with General Electric Aerospace...who is now owned by Lockheed...that might be one of the reasons information on these chips are so scarce.

[RyanGamerGoneGrazy]

i read somewhere that in australia the SVP was marketed as the DSP.
also i found an old thread here, http://eidolon.dnsalias.net/ta/20020...ges/11696.html , which touches on the whole dsp vs risc issue.

personally i think the virtua racing cart might have been created to emulate/copy the model 1 board. in my opinion the SVP could be hitachi's attempt to make something like the NEC V60 to use with the genesis..be it sh-1, sh-2...or some thing else.

from what ive read, i take the main reason people have had trouble emulating the model 1 board is lack information on Fujitsu's TGP MB86233...which i think handles the 3d graphics.

and from the above link one of the reasons people (or at least one person) have had trouble emulating the genesis virtua racing is there is a lack of information reguarding the MPR-16420-T

so maybe its possible that the tgp mb86233 and the mpr-16420-t serve a similar function?




i also read somewhere that the model 1 and virtua racing was co-developed with General Electric Aerospace...who is now owned by Lockheed...that might be one of the reasons information on these chips are so scarce.

Did they not also have a hand in the creation of the chips for one of the proposed Dural systems?. or was that just a myth

[Anthaemia.]

Lockheed was involved with SOA's pitch for the Saturn follow-up, if memory serves me correctly. I'm not completely sure what the difference was between the Dural and Blackbelt designs (apart from one boasting 3DFX technology prior to that company's death), but what I do know is that - surprise, surprise! - SOJ had its own Katana system put into production instead of what promised to be superior hardware! Then again, unlike its predecessor, I doubt many people outside of PS2 fanboy circles had much to say against the final Dreamcast specification. They also provided the chipset for its Eclipse cartridge upgrade project, though I've heard conflicting stories regarding whether this technology ever made it to a working prototype stage as no games have been confirmed as being in development for it... so far, at least!

[Anyway, isn't this thread about unreleased SVP titles?]

Daytona USA was definitely in progress as the intended follow-up to Virtua Racing, but if there was also a conversion of Virtua Fighter on the cards it's odd that such a high profile game didn't get as much coverage - unless it was either cancelled very early or not good, that is! As with SCUD Race two generations later, it was a real shame that Wing War and Star Wars Arcade were never given proper home conversions, though the latter did show up on the 32X while the former was given a spiritual successor in the form of Wing Arms.

P.S. One thing I could never understand is why Sega never took advantage of the Saturn's processors, including the otherwise relatively unused SH1 chip, to give the console some well-needed backwards compatibility with their established 16-bit catalogue. Finally, as if you hadn't already noticed, does anybody else feel that the "Model" series of arcade boards were way ahead of their times? How early titles such as Virtua Fighter and Daytona were considered possible on the MegaDrive - albeit with some extra power - shows the pure ambition of Sega, even if later efforts like VF3 and SCUD Race would have been asking perhaps a little too much (which is quite an understatement, unless you believe that old "Genesis VF3" hoax from a few years back)!

[Fonzie]

Umm,

Afaik, VR's SVP chip isn't a SH1, and isn't a pure DSP.

From a discuss i had with a dev-friend (who worked a bit around SVP emulation):
The SVP really execute/draw full parts of the game.
For, exemple, the sega logo sequence (full animation, rotation) is 100% rulled by the SVP, the genesis just upload the rendered picture to VRAM and clear the framebuffer each frame.
I don't know about the other part of the game but I think the genesis just send the cars and camera coordinates to the SVP (certainely a few other things) and let the SVP calculate all (polys screen coordinates...) and the drawing.

He also told me that VirtuaRacing do not use any extra sound possibility (althought it is technicaly possible to add sound source from cartridge port)... strange.

I read somewhere that the SVP was initialy planned to host virtua racing AND let the possibility to be controlled from segacd for disc based games (cheaper).
Advantages were:
-Game cost reduction
-Adding 3D to the 2D (segacd rendered) with same fps.
-blabla :P

The actual cart cannot be controlled from segacd without HW modification (on the cart) so i think the idea was canned when the 32x idea came out.

[ASSEMbler]

I have a megadrive magazine with a real detailed article. If someone volunteers to translate it ( I cant read kanji) I'll scan it. It also talks about the saturn, and it using a SH2, then two SH2.

Another thing is it shows most of the early saturn titles as being cart, and what looks like a 32x verison of clockwork knight.

[Anthaemia.]

I'm not entirely ruling out the possibility of Clockwork Knight existing on the 32X, but wasn't this always intended by Sega as one of three specially-developed Saturn launch titles (along with Panzer Dragoon and International Victory Goal)? If there really is an earlier version - and not just the SGI tech demo, as featured at the 1994 Winter CES - then I'd love to see this...

[Yakumo]

There is no 32X version of Clockwork knight. Those images shown on the net and the ones I posted pictures of ages ago were for the Saturn version. Panzer Dragoon may have been for the 32X but I had and actually know what happened to it now, a video of a very early real time CG demo of Panzer Dragoon. It looks nothing like the final version in fact more like the so called 32X version. The dragon was flying down a shallow canyon then entered a cave. I remember it looked pretty retarded quite like the so called 32X shots. Anyway, that video which also had a Daytona car demo driving in circles around a mode 7 floor, and very early Virtua Fighter tech demo was given to someone who was once a good friend but turned out to be a right git after knowing him for years. That's who has the video tape. I haven't talked to him in years and I doubt he still has that tape so it is as good as lost forever unless someone at Sega Japan leaks it. The tape I had originated from Sega Japan which was then sent to Sega Europe in London which then ended up in the hands of a very big name in the fan subtitled anime ring who gave me a copy. If I knew then how important that tape was I would have never of gave it way.

Yakumo

[Anthaemia.]

Well, thanks to your typically great ability to remember specific details, not all is lost. I'm still confused as to just how many variants on the first generation Saturn titles actually exist, since developers within Sega were clearly experimenting on several platforms and interim designs before finally settling on what became that console. Daytona USA and Panzer Dragoon are linked to the 32X in some ways, though it's almost certain now that Clockwork Knight started off as a Saturn-exclusive project. Having recently seen the original animated sequence pitched by STI for the infamous Sonic X-Treme, I can see plenty of similarities with what has been seen of the early Panzer Dragoon prototype you mentioned. If only more people took an interest in these pieces of software, as they're infinitely more valuable when it comes to filling in the blanks regarding Saturn's genesis (no pun intended).

P.S. Has anybody ever come across the early build of Daytona USA that ran in the Saturn's high resolution display mode? This was pictured once in the UK's official magazine, but since I don't have many back issues of its predecessor (Official Sega Magazine) then I've no idea if more images exist. As part of the Saturn development timeline, it would be great to see how this compared with the version that was ultimately rushed onto shelves.

[Yakumo]

P.S. Has anybody ever come across the early build of Daytona USA that ran in the Saturn's high resolution display mode?

Yeah, I had it on video. It's not Daytona but just one Dayton car driving around a mode 7 floor like I mentioned above. The car looks far more impressive than the ones used in the final game.

yakumo

[Anthaemia.]

From the one small pitcure I've seen in SSM it's hard to really tell just how detailed the backgrounds are - or NOT as the case seems to be! - in the high resolution prototype of Daytona, but the Hornet car looked stunning. I've no doubt that AM2 could easily have got the entire conversion looking that good (since they did the same with Virtua Fighter 2 just a few months later), were it not for a certain Sega executive's ultimately foolish decision to bring the console's release forward as a way of stealing early consumers away from the PlayStation. The same idiotic choice also ruined Virtua Fighter, though to be honest both titles maintained their brilliant gameplay. If only more people were able to see past their obvious graphical flaws and realise this...

[Shadowlayer]

I don't know much about the SVP, I only heard once that the very early Model1 units were in fact like a board with one hundred SVPs running in parallel, what would explained the high cost of R&D at the time.

About the MODEL series being ahead of time, undoubtedly they were, if you take a look at the kind of crap others companies were pulling off in the arcades (things like KI had nothing against VF) but on the other hand that put pressure on other companies into developing more advanced systems and at the same time that pressure went back to SEGA.

Yeah, I had it on video. It's not Daytona but just one Dayton car driving around a mode 7 floor like I mentioned above. The car looks far more impressive than the ones used in the final game.

But impressive as in the original arcade? or even more?

I think that's easy to pull off if the only thing to render is the car...

[Yakumo]

THe car from what I remember looked just as good as the original arcade. remember though that it's only 1 car so I don't see any reason why the Saturn couldn't do it. Can't see 1 car having more than 200'000 textured polygons.

Yakumo