ServiceGames: Open discussion regarding Propeller Arena.

[ServiceGames]

I have returned to apologize for the mistakes that have been made on my part.
I have done my best to reconcile any debts and disagreements that have occured.

To those whom I have wronged and anyone who feels that they have been harmed in any way by my actions I would ask you to please talk them through with me so that we can put this behind us.

-ServiceGames-

[virtual alan]

I forwaded some $ for a copy but never received a copy or $ back ($40 I think)

Sure it was sent to GSL and he forwarded it to you but would have to check on this as so long ago!!

[Greatsaintlouis]

I don't think I was the middleman, I only sent in my donation...

I guess the best thing to ask of ServiceGames is just what the heck happened. Although it is admirable that you came back and made this post, you disappeared with a lot of money from different people, and made no real attempt to contact anyone about it. I think an explanation is the least we deserve.

A little less pressing currently in my mind: what are the odds of the goodies (manual, case, etc.) promised to those who donated being finally sent out? A lot of people paid specifically for that, so I'm wondering if there's plans to go through with the original transaction, or offer refunds, or what.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing the whole story; you did finally return and I think for now you are at least deserving of the benefit of the doubt. I'll try to keep any flames that may pop up to a minimum, and I hope the other mods will help.

[virtual alan]

No worries GSL it was so long ago I can`t rememeber

Thinking about it, it may have been Yakumo but still not 100% sure.

But I know it was from one side of the pacific to the other so wherever ServiceGames was at the time.

Also the details were in the original (pre-lost/sabotaged) news group and also my paypal account details have changed so a bit of a pain :-)

Wasn`t the original donation about $20....and I am sure I sent $30....or it was a $30 donation and I sent $40

But by the by.....I agree with GSL

A little less pressing currently in my mind: what are the odds of the goodies (manual, case, etc.) promised to those who donated being finally sent out? A lot of people paid specifically for that, so I'm wondering if there's plans to go through with the original transaction, or offer refunds, or what.

[LeGIt]

I didn't donate, mostly because I really couldn't give 2 shits about playing the game and I was poor :P But I wasn't too impressed when people started handing out your personal details for hate campaigns when you atleast did 1 of the promises: you got PA dumped so people could play it.

[Paulo]

I wanna know what happened to the GDR. You said u had alot of bad luck once you got it back... Did you burn the disc? throw it off a bridge? cut it in half?

[Yakumo]

No worries GSL it was so long ago I can`t rememeber

Thinking about it, it may have been Yakumo but still not 100% sure.

Yes, I think it was through me but to be honest it was that long ago I don't know who I took donations for. Needless to say that I never got any refunds at all. I did get a PM from Service Games "sister" over at Dreamcast History twice or three times but nothing was ever said about P.A. or the refunds :(

Yakumo

[ServiceGames]

Here is my account of what happened. It is not a complete retelling and I must be a bit
brief at the moment so some detail will be left out.

At the time of the purchase of Propeller Arena I was doing alright financially and the cost
of funding such an endeavor was within my budget. The GDR itself had a cost of $1500.00.
On top of this I was required to buy supplies such as printable cdrs, jewel, cases,
photo paper, etc. my total cost without shipping the completed product was roughly $1800.00

As the project progressed I was cast upon a bit of a rough spot in my life and the financial
situation was reduced to a level I could not live with. At this point I had taken in roughly
$600.00 in donations.

As anyone who has attempted anything like this can agree, this was a stressful and time
consuming project. Getting all of the layouts together figuring out the print details
and finding the proper supplies to produce a quality product is no easy task.
I had finally finished the packaging, but I did not posess a playable copy of the game.

It had been a couple months since the project had started and people were getting a bit
impatient. I was met with quite a bit of hostility for taking to long to produce a
finished product. People seemed to assume that I was making a great deal of money
from selling copies of this game. I have even seen a few people making ridiculous claims
that I had pulled in thousands of dollars in pre-ship donations.
By the time the game was completed I was very weary and demoralized.

To add insult to injury, people who were neither on the team nor in any way involved with
my efforts had received playable copies before I did. When I received my copy in the mail,
I briefly tested it and began the duplication process. Before I was able to make an adequate
number of discs the ame had already been released on torrents. At this point I had to face a
tidal wave of backlash from angered donators who did not understand why tightass timmy who
had refused to donate was playing the game before them.

I am only human and the stress from this project was killing me. I worked all day in a feeble
attempt to provide myself a living, spent all night working on this project, responded to
emails as often as I could, I had no money to ship the products when
I had finally finished them. I was falling apart.


People began requesting that their donations be returned, because they had already
downloaded the game and I returned quite a bit of money without asking any questions,
although i was very disheartened.

Flash forward to present day and I am not doing to much better financially. I still have
little means by which to ship any products, even though they are sitting neatly stacked
on my desk along with the original GDR. All of this time I have planned on shipping them
out. I am going to finish this even if I have to ship them one at a time.

Virtual Alan:
I did keep a record book of donations and you sent $30,00 through Yakumo.
Let me know what you would like me to do to reconcile this.

[einbebop44]

This was all a bit before my time, about a month prior to registering on Dreamcast History. Anyhow, I think the point many people missed (after reading tons of past posts on the matter across a variety of boards) was that this was a donation. Most people made this donation, but considered it a "purchase" of a very nice product. This was where everything got all screwed up. Certain members got very, very pissed off, and felt like you were stealing from them--shopping them, essentially.

If I had donated, I would've been glad in knowing that the game had been released, and that I had helped. An unreleased game is nice, especially on DC, and not everyone will rip it (in fact, most who own GD-Rs/betas won't dump them =() Props for that.

[Paulo]

Yeah i kinda feel annoyed but not specialy at SG. I felt very annoyed by Bellok and who ever else managed to make it all about their little warez group...

Also at the end of the day i felt hey you given the donation you got the game to play finaly... is a cd and a printed case all that great? I mean no insult to SG but its just some guy sitting a desk making some illegal copies for you....

[Greatsaintlouis]

This was all a bit before my time, about a month prior to registering on Dreamcast History. Anyhow, I think the point many people missed (after reading tons of past posts on the matter across a variety of boards) was that this was a donation.

Actually, as you weren't here, you should have searched for the relevant topic (unless it was deleted) before saying anything. The 'donation' was indeed a donation - everyone would have access to the game, but the donators were to have the extra privilege of A) being able to play it before the general public and B) getting a professionally printed case and 'manual' for their copy.

I didn't donate, mostly because I really couldn't give 2 shits about playing the game and I was poor :P But I wasn't too impressed when people started handing out your personal details for hate campaigns when you atleast did 1 of the promises: you got PA dumped so people could play it.

Well, maybe you don't think it's all that important, but a lot of people believe in recieving for what they pay for, or at least hearing why they didn't. Anyways, as you said, you didn't donate, so it really shouldn't concern you a whole lot either way.

As for Service Games, I think Paulo said it best at the beginning of his post: I'm rather irritated about how the whole thing turned out, but the early release by belokk and the ripping goons was far more disappointing than the eventual disappearance of SG. I was rather disappointed in not having the case and such, but the game was ripped and playable, and I figured there was most likely a monetary reason for SG's disappearance. At that time, I just wrote it off - the $20 was a donation to the project, and he'll most likely never show up again, so there's no use in getting all pent-up about it. Now that he's back, I still consider it a donation, but if there is any chance of the deal being fulfilled, I'd love to take it, even if I'd have to pay for postage. Sure, I could go down to Kinko's and print the cover that Yakumo made, but it's just the entire issue of a business transaction that went unfulfilled.

I just think again the big issue for a lot of people wasn't so much the money as it was just not hearing from SG for so long as to what happened. Again, it was good form for him to reappear and explain things.

[hl718]

If I had donated, I would've been glad in knowing that the game had been released, and that I had helped. An unreleased game is nice, especially on DC, and not everyone will rip it (in fact, most who own GD-Rs/betas won't dump them =() Props for that.

There are two main reasons why collectors won't dump unreleased games:

1) Because there will always be people trying to make money off the endeavour
2) Because it drastically lowers the value of the original


If you need proof of number one just look at what happened on eBay and here when PA was ripped. As for the second, now that it is out, an original GDR copy isn't going to sell for $1500 anywhere.

-hl718

[Greatsaintlouis]

Of course, because GD-R copies are so common nowadays. But that's rather outside the scope of this thread.

[einbebop44]

Actually, as you weren't here, you should have searched for the relevant topic (unless it was deleted) before saying anything. The 'donation' was indeed a donation - everyone would have access to the game, but the donators were to have the extra privilege of A) being able to play it before the general public and B) getting a professionally printed case and 'manual' for their copy.

I know the details surrounding it. It was, in essence, supposed to be a donation. Unfortunately, a lot of people viewed it as a purchase. And then things went downhill. I understand people were angry about it, but at least the game came out--which was more than most are willing to do.

There are two main reasons why collectors won't dump unreleased games:

1) Because there will always be people trying to make money off the endeavour
2) Because it drastically lowers the value of the original


If you need proof of number one just look at what happened on eBay and here when PA was ripped. As for the second, now that it is out, an original GDR copy isn't going to sell for $1500 anywhere.

-hl718

That's just bollocks. I won't get into this in any sort of great detail, but for one example: Flintstones was ripped, and released. About a week or so afterwards, a white label--a professionally printed disc, so nowhere near the rarity of a burned off GD-R of PA/Half Life--sold for around $700-$800. Previous discs had gone for $100, at the maximum.

I've gone off topic enough.

I think it's good that you've come back to explain yourself. Takes balls to that, and shows that you weren't hosing everyone down. Kudos for that.

[koolkid13]

I dont care how it happened. I was just happy with the fact that now everyone can play PA. I wish the same could happen to take the bullet or Geist Force, but Kron will not respond to my PM's.

[Yakumo]

I dont care how it happened. I was just happy with the fact that now everyone can play PA. I wish the same could happen to take the bullet or Geist Force, but Kron will not respond to my PM's.

Geist Force is mine, MINE, MINE I tell you :smt033 Oh, one day I will own it :( I've been waiting 7 years or so now. At least I have a video of it from hl718 that people are welcome to see.

Yakumo

[ServiceGames]

As odd as it may sound, Geist Force was one of my most anticipated DC games EveR.. I'd trade the PA disc for it, but I doubt it would be accepted as an even trade.

[hl718]

As odd as it may sound, Geist Force was one of my most anticipated DC games EveR.. I'd trade the PA disc for it, but I doubt it would be accepted as an even trade.

Before you copied PA and distributed it to the world there was at least one person out there who considered GF an even trade for a PA disc. In fact, the owner of GF was the one who asked me to do the trade when he/she found out I had PA. :)

After the release, not so much. Heh.

That's the double edged sword of collecting and one of the many reasons why I'll let folks play any of my rare titles, but refuse to copy/dump them. Sometimes you have to use one rare title to trade for another.

-hl718