Component Out - How easy is it to accomplish?

[Trenton_net]

Hey Everyone,

Does anyone know how difficult it would be to get component out (NTSC) done on a PC Engine? I assume modifying a Tennokoe to do it would be pretty easy for someone with the requisite electronics skill? For that matter, has anyone here actually done this? :-)

[gzanelatto]

Hello! I´m new here, and I need some help on this thing too hehe.

Recently , I performed a mod for RGB on my PC Engine- it works fine. But now I got a problem with my rgb-vga converter and I want to play on my old tv. When I plug the composite output on the TV, I barely can see the images, only few shadows - I think its need some amp. I used the transistor BC337 to amplify my rgb cable, but I tried that one on the composite , without sucess. Any suggestion for amplify this thing?Thanks and sorry for my english ( brazillian here, hehe).

[Calpis]

Not easy, unless you use a premade transcoder board. But even then it might not "just work" since the PCE won't output TV ready RGB/the transcoder may be a garbage circuit. Not only does it take someone with the theory background, but also with time and expensive equipment too.

I say just use composite, or if you must, mod for S-video. Not only are they entirely adequate for the majority of games using the low resolution video modes, they are the only feasible methods to view games in their intended color (the raw 9-bit RGB gets hinted to 12-bit for better color choices/gamma/skin tone).

[Trenton_net]

Hrm... Sounds reasonable. I guess S-Video seems like a good compromise then. I kind of saw some pre-modded duos with component out and assumed it was a simple job. But even then, I'm sure composite will be just fine as I'm pretty used to it anyway.

I guess now I can worry about finding an easy way to dump PCE games. I guess the only off-the-shelf method is by using a Griffin? I think the Retrode can do it with an adapter, but I don't exactly have the skills to make one. It's a shame considering how many bad dumps there are. People don't seem to care about that as long as it runs in an emulator which is kind of sad.

[Lum]

Not easy, unless you use a premade transcoder board. But even then it might not "just work" since the PCE won't output TV ready RGB/the transcoder may be a garbage circuit. Not only does it take someone with the theory background, but also with time and expensive equipment too.

I say just use composite, or if you must, mod for S-video. Not only are they entirely adequate for the majority of games using the low resolution video modes, they are the only feasible methods to view games in their intended color (the raw 9-bit RGB gets hinted to 12-bit for better color choices/gamma/skin tone).

Huh. I thought PCE had fantastic RGB with a correct mod. Video signal clarity as distortion-free as the SNES Jr.

[keropi]

I have RGB modded my PCE using an RGB amp that my friend gtsamour made based on this schematic, the picture quality is just awesome...



not sure about the 9/12bit color "upscale" though, haven't noticed anything strange...

[Calpis]

I guess now I can worry about finding an easy way to dump PCE games. I guess the only off-the-shelf method is by using a Griffin? I think the Retrode can do it with an adapter, but I don't exactly have the skills to make one. It's a shame considering how many bad dumps there are. People don't seem to care about that as long as it runs in an emulator which is kind of sad.

Any copier can dump PCE games with an adapter, to me a SNES copier would be the obvious choice. It'd be really simple to make, just a PCE connector, SNES game and some wires.

Are there a lot of bad dumps? I don't have many HuCard games (maybe 8) but all of my dumps were in GoodPCE, and I've never had a game crash on me.

Huh. I thought PCE had fantastic RGB with a correct mod. Video signal clarity as distortion-free as the SNES Jr.

When does anything not have "fantastic RGB"? RGB is the source of each subsequent video connection so it always has the best clarity, though in many cases the difference may be negligible, but in this case RGB doesn't have the correct COLOR which has nothing to do with clarity.

I have RGB modded my PCE using an RGB amp that my friend gtsamour made based on this schematic, the picture quality is just awesome...

The PQ may be awesome (technical term) but that age-old circuit is crap.

not sure about the 9/12bit color "upscale" though, haven't noticed anything strange...

Upscale? It's not something you would notice unless you compared RGB and composite outputs side by side. Because your amplifier is not delivering the correct signal level to your display, nor is it properly terminated, it might be hard for you to be objective about this anyway.

[keropi]

Upscale? It's not something you would notice unless you compared RGB and composite outputs side by side. Because your amplifier is not delivering the correct signal level to your display, nor is it properly terminated, it might be hard for you to be objective about this anyway.

"Upscale" in lack of a better term to describe the 9->12bit transformation.... hence the quotation marks...
Please elaborate on the amp I am using and it's flaws , I don't mind improving/replacing it

[Lum]

When does anything not have "fantastic RGB"? RGB is the source of each subsequent video connection so it always has the best clarity, though in many cases the difference may be negligible, but in this case RGB doesn't have the correct COLOR which has nothing to do with clarity.

Doesn't that depend on each specific game's developer intended?

[Bad_Ad84]

And which developer would be targeting a mode that doesnt exist on a retail console?

[keropi]

OK now I understand , it's color information we are destroying here... do the colors end up looking kinda washed up like on emulators with an RGB output?

[Lum]

And which developer would be targeting a mode that doesnt exist on a retail console?

RGB looking right could potentially impress trade shows and the press more than composite. I'm guessing it'd also make for easier color accuracy when porting to other consoles who have retail RGB.

OK now I understand , it's color information we are destroying here... do the colors end up looking kinda washed up like on emulators with an RGB output?

Not exactly "destroying". Rather you're seeing what the game programmers saw.

RGB is the original color information that games use for their palettes, and the console renders into usable graphics form. Encoding into formats like NTSC or PAL shifts color tones to some extent. An effect game makers had to consider when drawing their core RGB assets.

[keropi]

I just tried with composite and rgb on the same tv, they have 99% SAME color levels/intensity/"call it whatever you like" , only difference is that the RGB is way more sharper.

[Calpis]

Please elaborate on the amp I am using and it's flaws , I don't mind improving/replacing it

This is funny, why would you replace it when it clearly suits your needs? The problem with it is that 1) it's AC coupled instead of using a PNP for input 2) it doesn't have the required gain to deliver the expected level to the TV with termination 3) it doesn't have the proper output impedance expected by the TV 4) it uses a lot of current. The only good thing about it might be its linearity, but I'm not sure.

OK now I understand , it's color information we are destroying here... do the colors end up looking kinda washed up like on emulators with an RGB output?

Composite is lighter in general (due to RGB's linearity becoming non-linearity in the display). Also equally spaced RGB is very bold and ugly without a large bit depth, thankfully for the PCE 512 colors overcomes this (but not as well in RGB). This is because RGB isn't properly gamma-corrected (on the console) or properly converted to the sRGB colorspace (in emulators). You're supposed to gamma-correct all color and old consoles don't really do that, so the perceived light intensity from the display is not linear as intended. I'm not sure if the lookup table is specifically for gamma correction, but they changed colors for some reason, maybe personal preferences.

RGB looking right could potentially impress trade shows and the press more than composite. I'm guessing it'd also make for easier color accuracy when porting to other consoles who have retail RGB.

? OK.

RGB from one console isn't the same as RGB from another. They will have different bit depths and DAC linearity which means all colors must be rounded to the nearest available color anyway. Also different consoles have completely different palette capabilities so even if they had exactly the same color, the palettes will have to be changed entirely to fit the constraints of another console. Moot point because why would Hudson want PCE games to be portable? Obviously they wanted PCE to be ahead of the competition and that's why its video system is as unique as it is.

Not exactly "destroying". Rather you're seeing what the game programmers saw.

Game programmers back then worked on computer workstations with significantly less colors than the PCE, probably mostly PC-98s with 16 colors. When graphics were designed, guess where they were viewed.. on the PCE.. with composite.. probably on a 13-20" TV. Also many character (tile) editing and animation tools at that time actually ran on their respective console because there's no ambiguity over what it's going to look like.

I just tried with composite and rgb on the same tv, they have 99% SAME color levels/intensity/"call it whatever you like" , only difference is that the RGB is way more sharper.

It's notoriously difficult for humans to discern colors like that, side by side would be better. Since you say RGB is way sharper, then your TV has serious issues with composite. (But you should thank it for having AGC to fix video levels.) Most PCE video has a low enough resolution that the luma (which primarily defines sharpness/clarity to our eyes) completely fits into composite's allotted bandwidth with room to spare which also means that there's good chroma separation. On my TV PCE's composite looks sufficiently sharp, I can see well defined pixels and from memory dot crawl isn't noticeable thanks to the PCE's well designed encoder.

[gtsamour]

No difference I can see in color between RGB and composite either. And in my humble opinion, if most people can't see the color difference between the two (RGB also way better in sharpness unless your tv has a serious issues with RGB), who cares what anyone else says...

And yes, I can see pixels in composite too (in my 55'' LCD tv.... LOL) but not in my trinitron 21'' crt lets be serious...

[APE]

While the usage of transistors makes for a decent amp I would imagine this would be applicable:
http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/ni...64_rgb_new.htm

Looks good IMO but that doesn't make it a good amp to use.

When does anything not have "fantastic RGB"? RGB is the source of each subsequent video connection so it always has the best clarity, though in many cases the difference may be negligible, but in this case RGB doesn't have the correct COLOR which has nothing to do with clarity.

When you wire your N64 without an amp and everything is too dark to be of any real use. PEBKAC obviously.

[Calpis]

No difference I can see in color between RGB and composite either.

You have a PCE hooked up to two identical displays side by side? The long moment where your display flips A/V inputs is long enough for you to not see the difference. By its nature composite doesn't have exactly the same color as RGB so this is really far fetched.

While the usage of transistors makes for a decent amp I would imagine this would be applicable:
http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/ni...64_rgb_new.htm

Looks good IMO but that doesn't make it a good amp to use.

The THS7314 would be a very good amp to use, it'll have much better performance than any discrete amp design you can find online.

[gtsamour]

You have a PCE hooked up to two identical displays side by side? The long moment where your display flips A/V inputs is long enough for you to not see the difference. By its nature composite doesn't have exactly the same color as RGB so this is really far fetched.


The THS7314 would be a very good amp to use, it'll have much better performance than any discrete amp design you can find online.

I really don't need and don't care much to compare side by side. As long as i can't see any difference big enough to stand out and make a memorable impression, its same enough for me and almost everybody. Exactly the same can't be since composite smudges the picture a bit, RGB picture on the other hand is crystal clear. I have compared RGB picture from an actual PCE to an emulator picture of the same game and its indistinguishable.

As for the pixel you mentioned before, noway you can see it on a CRT tv using composite. With RGB you can see pixels even on low quality pictures taken of a tv screen http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=9299.0 Do you really think that a composite picture can be compared with the RGB shown on these pictures ?

The THS7314 could be a tolerable solution, not the best IMO since to get the best RGB picture you need to use Sync instead of the crappy composite signal which can cause checkerboard patterns on the RGB screen. Sync signal needs to be amplified too thus you need an extra amplifier to do that which the THS7314 does not provide.

[Lum]

From pictures I've seen... Blue looks better in composite. Red looks better in RGB.

Which doesn't seem like much surprise. NTSC is infamous for hideous reds IIRC.

[gtsamour]

From pictures I've seen... Blue looks better in composite. Red looks better in RGB.

Which doesn't seem like much surprise. NTSC is infamous for hideous reds IIRC.

I have most of PCE consoles, both US and JAP versions and seen the picture in each and everyone of them on both composite and modded for RGB (using the above x4 (RGB + Sync) amplifier made using the schematic which IMO is superior to the THS7314 solution) , TG16, PCE, Core II, Supergrafx, PCE DUO, DUO R... you name it.... and I'm talking about CRT tv which is the tv these consoles were meant to be played on and not some LCD that apply digital filters on the picture making composite "only look" sharp which in reality is very far from that.

Trust me... everything looks WAY better in RGB, there's absolutely no measure of comparisson to composite, none.