What do you think about Reproduction cart games?

[Bad_Ad84]

Rom hacks are released so people can play the game in their language.

Most people are not capable of removing and refitting the chip themselves.

I would just be doing the labour they cant do themselves.

3 hours labour (by your own post) means I would make less doing a repro cart than I would doing any other work I do.

Quite clearly its not something profitable and mean I can retire.

Hell, the links YOU posted even agree with me - people who cant do the work should be able to pay someone a reasonable price to do it for them.

However, selling repros at crazy prices - I agree with you completely.

Also, its EXACTLY like selling a linux CD. Programmers have been working on Linux for free for YEARS, yet selling a DVD and charging to cover your time is completely acceptable.

Like I said (if you bothered to read my posts) - I dont think repros are worth it, you can just buy a flash cart. However, some people want a cart to put on their shelve and if they could do it themselves, no one would have an issue with it. Because they cant do it and someone charges 1 hour labour + parts - its wrong?

Like I said, I already agree with overpriced rips offs - so try and keep things in context please.

Id also like to make it clear that I have have only ever done a couple of Star Fox 2 repros - so there is no translators copyrights issue with anything I have done anyway.

not only that, not all translations have the kind of restrictions that you posted a link to.

[Mystical]

So even if they wrote "this shouldn't be sold" in their readme, you have the right to sell it ?
They made their work for free, for the community, and you aren't ashamed to earn money on their back?
"manwork". Let me laugh... Have you ever tried to hack + translate a game ? Creating a cartmod don't take more than 3 hours to do (I've already done it). Hacking a game and translating can takes dozens of hours (just ask Gemini).
And don't compare with Linux DVD selling, it's really not the same work.

You are stealing the translator's work, and the hacker's code. It's simple as that. Incoming translation like FEOEZ will never work on cartmod, because byuu will prevent it.

Just have a look here http://www.romhacking.net/forum/inde...c,14195.0.html and here http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1204.

ok well,

it's not stealing since they released it onto the net, it's also definitely not stealing since nothing has actually been taken but thats a different argument

whether it takes 5 mins or 5 hours you are entitled to charge for your work, i certainly wouldn't be spending 3 hours on something for free, my time is worth more than that and i think you will find that not many people will do stuff for you for nothing, maybe your different tho? do you work for free?

the people who hack and translate games (which is still illegal as its not their work and they do not have permission to make these changes) release the Rom for free so you can do what you like with it, which is the same as what they have done, they took a game and hacked it up to suit themselves. I can't see how one is more righteous than the other personally

and more importantly if i buy a game and want to download a Rom from the net and convert said game to play it, who are you to tell me that i am wrong? especially when you say that you have done it yourself, if i then wish to sell it that again is my business, providing i am only charging for the time and materials to create the cart then again its my choice, i can't believe people get so angry about this stuff, its just a game FFS!

[Bad_Ad84]

How about someone downloads the rom, puts it in a eprom and sent me it to fit.

I dont even know whats on the eprom and dont boot it to test it, is charging for my time now wrong? am I selling the game that I dont even know whats on there or am I selling my time?

Now, someone like gamereproductions that sells them as X cart - I can kinda see the point. But my above example is very much how I work.. I do not advertise any X game for sale. People PM me and ask me to do the soldering for them.

And again, I would just like to point out - I said I made them occasionally, just like you said you have made them too. I just disagree that its "stealing".... do you work for the movie/record industry by any chance?

[A. Snow]

I just wish someone would make and sell some professional quality reproduction packaging so I could box all the NES/SNES games I've purchased used.

[7Force]

They are worthless crap, but if you really wanna spend money on them, whatever.

[Lum]

It'll improve as we figure out label printing and shell making techniques. We can do better than stereotypical hong kong bootleggers.

[Canoness]

I think the right reproductions can be a great accent to an already great collection. But, as a collector, I have a few rules I adhere by, primarily that I own the real version of the cart as well. For example, I have a Monster World IV reproduction - being a giant Wonderboy fan, being able to play the entire series, in english, on my Genesis and SMS is a real thrill. But I only got my MWIV cart
after I'd purchased the japanese version. As a collector, the box and manuals to certain games are worth way, way more than the cart to begin with, so I'm no stranger to frivelous collecting. I did the same with Seiken Densetsu 3. I think people who turn to reproduction carts because they don't want to pay high prices for collectables are missing the point, however. I'd never, for instance, buy an Alien Soldier reproduction cart - not when it already exists in english.

That said, there are a few reproduction carts that I absolutely cherish, and I'll proudly show off to any other collector. My Sonic Triple Trouble Sega Master System cart, for example, is absolutely ace. I got the game in a trade - a Saturn and Vogatek Supergun Mk V for STT and Sonic Drift 2, both on the SMS. There is a real thrill in playing a game that never existed to begin with - Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic Drift 2 are both Game Gear games, not SMS games (and yes, I have the GG carts as well). Starfox 2 is another great example - I like being able to show off the entire Starfox series in possession, including the one that was never released.

Basically, unless the game flat out doesn't exist normally, I treat reproduction carts like high quality translation carts. It's no different to me than buying Policenauts, dumping the ISO, burning the patch, and playing it on my real PSX. The whole point of collecting, for me at least, is to have the real deal on real hardware. Owning a great game in japanese is nice, and I could power through it with my ability to read japanese, but I'd much prefer to play an excellent translation instead.

Shit like the Sapphire "reproductions" that have flooded the PC Engine market, however, violates the spirit of these sorts of reproductions and falls more into piracy than reproduction. Thats a legitimate danger of reproductions, and sadly people who aren't as strong willed as I (or those looking to flat-out scam the public) are ruining something for all of us.

I agree with you there that having an original copy of the game along with a translated cart is not a bad thing since some game will never see a translation, or in my case If someone's home-brew game is good enough to consider me buy a cart copy like Pier solar. I do see having game these game as more as something that if you want have in your collection why not if you enjoy the games then have them. Yes there are some that are way over priced suck as the store link i posted.

I definitely agree with the last thing you said there which is why I hope to maybe help enlighten anyone who comes across this thread should they be asking themselves whether or not they should look into maybe buying repo carts. I would hate to see someone get ripped off by companies like the Timewalk games site. Yes they do better than most when it comes to actually taking time to make there carts and boxes look good but their prices are way to high for what they ask for.

Is there anyone who thinks about the translators/romhackers who spent hundred of hours to translate theses games into english? Without getting paid, of course.
Maybe they are upset to see their *free* work being sold...
People selling this are just thiefs.

I can see your reasoning there, but coming from someone who puts hundreds of hours of work into modding games I know full and well people are going to rip off my work and use it as there own. I don't get mad about it when someone does this to me cause i know am doing this so that others may benefiter from my knowledge. I would get mad if someone was making money off my work not because they are making money but because the games I mod (The total war games) because I have a great deal of respect for the company who makes the games I mod. I would hate to see someone break the trust that we build over the years, and then here CA tell me that they will no longer release mod tools. With that said I know good and well all of the games I would like to get like Secret of Mana 2 I can download for free. There no need for me to go out and buy a repo cart, but I like having a physical copies of my game and if the price and quality are right I don't mind paying for parts and labor for a game. The most being maybe 35 dollers and that if it would be a game I would not mind showing off in my collection.


P.S I suck at spelling and grammar so this post may be edited often....

[MottZilla]

How about someone downloads the rom, puts it in a eprom and sent me it to fit.

I dont even know whats on the eprom and dont boot it to test it, is charging for my time now wrong? am I selling the game that I dont even know whats on there or am I selling my time?

Now, someone like gamereproductions that sells them as X cart - I can kinda see the point. But my above example is very much how I work.. I do not advertise any X game for sale. People PM me and ask me to do the soldering for them.

And again, I would just like to point out - I said I made them occasionally, just like you said you have made them too. I just disagree that its "stealing".... do you work for the movie/record industry by any chance?

This is the whole problem. What you say you are doing, seems fine to me. They pay you to put it together so they pay for your time and materials. The problem is when people sell *insert highly sought game* for big bucks. Some of these reproduction sites you can browse through their list of bootlegs and the cost of games has no relation at all to the amount of materials or work involved. It also gets murky because you can always say the high cost is what you charge for your labor. Also again murky, it's also true in the case of translated games that you are profiting off of freely released translations because without the translation, no one would be buying the cartridges.

It's sad but this is all been a pandora's box. Years back people posted information about buying your own carts and a few people were like, wow that's cool. Then over time it became more and more people trying to do it and then people doing it to try to make a huge profit. But you can't really get rid of it now.

[Bad_Ad84]

How about I fit an socket and dont even see the eprom at all? :)

But yes, I agree with you completely - which I did try to make clear. However, I got jumped on as being a thief apparently.

[Vosse]

What you have said doesn't disagree with my statement - its still using a donor.

Also, in my opinion that is WORSE than using a shitty sports game (while morally better, as you arent creating a new game - just translating the original cart), you are still killing a valuable or at least decent cart for it.

Remember, I make repros - I am not trying to say they are evil. Just stating the facts.

If you import it from Japan, it's not like you are ever going to resell it to someone in Japan. So nobody loses to me at least.

But someone else mentioned a switch that switches the game from Old/New. I think that's a decent compromise at least if you want to buy an authentic SFC cart and modify it with a Translation or something.


Using other Donor carts(like Sportsgames/etc) you have to go out and make an entire new package and label for it and whatnot.

[Bad_Ad84]

I don't make/print any labels/packaging.

Like I am trying to get across - I would only do the soldering, a cart would come with no label, no box, etc. If the person who paid me to do the soldering wants to make those, then they could.

[Calpis]

How about I fit an socket and dont even see the eprom at all? :)

Then they'll bitch that it won't fit back into the case.

---

I hate repros. It kills carts. Yes abundant (for now) and shitty carts primarily, but most reproers of course don't know how to rework bad games to achieve the required decoding, or are too lazy to eBay a game and instead sacrifice something in their collection, so inevitably decent games DO die.

It's not fair to the game developer/current owner, either way Nintendo published the cart, but the developer in this case DID NOT GET PAID since the cart didn't contain their game, unless the repro is made from the original Japanese cart, and in that case a good game is destroyed with certainty.

It's also not fair to the translators who don't see a penny for their work.

That said, translations are often tacky. They are almost never complete (are in perpetual progress, usually forever), and rarely do the translators credit themselves in a discrete and professional way so the aesthetic doesn't match a licensed game*. Of course there are often plenty of unsquashed bugs too.

*Neither do the people's shitty attempts at labels and packaging

Most people who make them follow guides. The guide writers don't see a penny. Unintentionally I've helped a lot of people make repros by participating in discussions and offering troubleshooting solutions and original circuits. Along with that I've unintentionally invited people to think I'm some kind of tutor -> repro people are very often annoying.

It wastes EPROMs (of which there are a finite quantity left) that can be put to better use in the future such as repairs and new original products.


Repros weren't so bad when d4s was doing it 10 years ago. Today is a different story, you've got dozens of "professional" repro makers making substantial undeserved income, judging by the floods of requests for assitance on Nesdev hundreds of people making repros for their own collection, and undoubtedly there are thousands of repro buyers out there. It's not sustainable, it's not moral, it shouldn't be encouraged.

[Bad_Ad84]

Then they'll bitch that it won't fit back into the case.

It was intended to get the point across about selling time vs "selling a game" - which I am sure you knew was the point :P

[djelaba]

How about I fit an socket and dont even see the eprom at all? :)

But yes, I agree with you completely - which I did try to make clear. However, I got jumped on as being a thief apparently.

Imagine you've drawn a beautiful picture. You put it on your website so people can download it, and ask them to don't make money with your work. You didn't ask for money, because you enjoyed drawing this.

Then someone wants to print it, but doesn't have the printer, and then a company says "hey, I can print it for 50$". Of course, in theses 50 $ there is manwork, paper, etc... But the company still earns money.
Did you receive anything ? No, because you didn't sell your picture. But wouldn't you feel cheated by seeing someone earning money over your work? Someone who didn't respect your wishes?
So yeah, I call people like this thieves.

And I agree with Calpis. There are way too much people into "cartmods". I enjoy building cartmods of great games, but I don't sell them.
If people can't build themselves repro card, I don't care. They just have to buy a flashcard.

[Bad_Ad84]

Your example is completely and utterly flawed.

A better example would be someone painted my painting again and it took him several hours, then charged $30 for it. I still keep my original picture, no one has stolen anything. They have just charged for their time, which they are completely free to do. Infact, this happens already with copies of the Mona Lisa and no end of other paintings. It also happens with covers of songs.... Its completely acceptable, its their performance of someone elses song and they are charging for their time playing it. So again, your argument proves nothing.

Also, copying something isnt theft anyway. Despite what you call it, copyright infringement and theft are not the same. No one is deprived of their item (as they still have it, just a copy is made), therefore its not theft.

Like my quote above, how about I solder in a eprom socket and do not put ANY game on it at all? its the same thing, I would charge just the same (minus cost of eprom). In your example, I am providing someone with the canvas and paints, they copied the painting themselves.

Also, why is buying a flash card OK then? the person who made the flash cart is profiting because someone wants to use the ROM. Its the same thing you are complaining about...

By your logic about flash carts being fine, how about I just open up a bunch of carts, fit sockets and required logic and sell them. All you need to do is program an eprom and insert it into the socket I have not copied anything, I am doing just the same as a flash cart and I still charge exactly the same price.


(remember, this is all hypothetical - I have mentioned a number of times I have not sold any fan translated games anyway, so you dont even have anything on me away, I just think your logic is crazy)

[A. Snow]

I don't feel too bad for the developers. It is a niche market that they have chosen to ignore. Other industries like toy manufacturers have realized that their customers who have grown up are still nostalgic for their old products and now have even more money to spend. They have embraced reissuing their old products and have cashed in as a result.

If Nintendo or Sega started a program where they offered one or two reissues each month and sold them online, I have no doubt that there are enough folks that would line up for them to also cash in.

[APE]

I'm personally tired of the posers and so called "professionals" making reproductions. Hate to break it to them but just because you can shell out cash for some tools and EPROMs and follow a tutorial doesn't make you a professional.

I've only made 1 reproduction and that was for Bio Force Ape for the NES. I also sold it for a very low price that barely covered my costs without a label. I don't understand the selling of reproductions with boxes, manuals and a pretty label for a sizable chunk of change. Clearly you're bootlegging a game (granted a very high quality bootleg) and are unashamed of it. I don't want to encourage such actions but I also don't feel it is right to restrict the information. People are going to do what they're going to do in the same way some cock will cut you off in traffic tomorrow nearly taking off your bumper.

[Calpis]

Like my quote above, how about I solder in a eprom socket and do not put ANY game on it at all? its the same thing, I would charge just the same (minus cost of eprom).

I have a problem with this case because you're taking carts out of commission without necessity.

Also, why is buying a flash card OK then? the person who made the flash cart is profiting because someone wants to use the ROM. Its the same thing you are complaining about...

Flash carts have the potential to run homebrew and freely licensed games. When people do pirate games on a flash cart, since the game's physicality is in a state of flux there is no confusion over whether the game has collectors value, it does not. The same can't be said for a repro of a "rare" game, and almost all repros are of "rare" games. Since translations make up the bulk of repros the translators should be considered. Until recently translators probably never considered anyone making a repros of their work, instead they'd expect people to play through the game on an emulator and call it a day. Playing the translation on a flash cart shouldn't offend the translator because no money is changing hands (hopefully).

Also it should be said that repros are making their way to used game stores which means unscrupulous/ignorant shopkeepers are selling them, most likely as rare games.

As for the prototypes being released as repros, this is just as bad because they're even more desirable than translations and it seems that the supplier gets royalties, you know, to be fair... So two people are profiting off the developer.

I am doing just the same as a flash cart and I still charge exactly the same price.

I for one am completely against flash carts that necessitate or encourage sacrificing games for their shell or CIC. If need be they could always ship with origami cardboard enclosures...

I don't feel too bad for the developers. It is a niche market that they have chosen to ignore. Other industries like toy manufacturers have realized that their customers who have grown up are still nostalgic for their old products and now have even more money to spend. They have embraced reissuing their old products and have cashed in as a result.

If Nintendo or Sega started a program where they offered one or two reissues each month and sold them online, I have no doubt that there are enough folks that would line up for them to also cash in.

Have you heard of that Wii thing with the Virtual Console?

[Bad_Ad84]

Again, its all hypothetical - I am not doing anything. I am just providing situations that do not compute with his logic.

However, the "point" was - if someone pays buys a flash cart to play a translated game, the flash cart dev has earned money directly as a result of that translation. Just the same as if someone build a cart with a blank eprom in it or soldered in an eprom for someone and charged for their time (not the game itself).

He says paying someone for a flash cart is OK, but paying someone to solder in an EPROM is not - these 2 things clash. If the point was flash carts dont get sold as the legit thing in used stores etc and repros cloud the market - then I completely and utterly agree with that point.

If its a case of "selling" the translation - surely my socketed cart is OK, no translated work is being used. However, you could argue I would be profiting from the translators work, as they have created an atmosphere were a socketed cart is desirable. But thats just the same situation as the flash cart he gave his blessing to. The hypothetical socketed cart was just to show that it would only be the labour that's being charged for.

In my example of the socketed cart - you can run homebrew on that too, its no different than the flash cart in the respects of what it can be used for. So, surely charging labour for doing it is OK (just like the flash cart maker for building/development). What it can and cant be used for isnt my point, its that charging for labour has to be OK. Selling over priced rip offs is not.

I am not disputing your other issues - I have said a number of times that people selling them as legit or charging silly money is something I disagree with and agree with everyone else in this thread.

I have very specifically talking about charging for your work part of things.

I for one am completely against flash carts that necessitate or encourage sacrificing games for their shell or CIC. If need be they could always ship with origami cardboard enclosures...

This should actually be possible...

SD2SNES doesnt use any original parts (i.e. DSP1 like everdrive needs) and original cases are being made for the Star Ocean repros someones selling (again, without donors - but copyrighted code).

[djelaba]

Your example is completely and utterly flawed.

A better example would be someone painted my painting again and it took him several hours, then charged $30 for it.

No, because almost 95 % of your work isn't spent on the game itself (=the rom). Flashing the Eprom is only a fraction of the work you charge.
You don't change anything of the game. You don't improve or alter the translation, if it is a fan translation. You just take the rom and flash it on an eprom.
THEN you spend some time desoldering, soldering, etc... But you don't paint the painting again.

Translators and hackers have copyright on their work. Using it without their consent, making money can be called stealing, or if you have another term for that, I'm okay.
Don't take it personaly. I didn't even know your website before this post, but I've personnaly known someone who made *thousands* of dollars selling repro on ebay. Sometimes he even used flashcard, and he didn't gave a shit about the hackers & translators.
So no, I don't say *you're* a thief, but people who only wants to earn money on the back of other people can deserve this adjective.

And I agree with Calpis about flashcard. You're buying a way to run anything on your console. Repro cards are only one purpose : to play one game, which hasn't been released (or is very rare).