What do you think about Reproduction cart games?

[Bad_Ad84]

You keep ignoring my hypothetical cart with a socket. Its the same amount of work, the time consuming part is the soldering etc - not flashing the rom. I wouldnt be using anything, there would be no code on the cart, someone can run their own code or a repro or anything else. The end user can then do what ever the like. But I would charge exactly the same price for the labour - obviously there is no selling of the rom/translation.

In your own post you have just said burning the eprom takes a fraction of the time - which is my point, its not the part being charged for, its the labour (again, I am not talking about the sites making stupid money from repros - just the example of people asking me to do the work for them).

Also, what website? I do not have a website.....?

[Lum]

Because that method isn't really a repro of any particular game. There's no data on the cart to have controversy about.

[Bad_Ad84]

Yes, which is clearly showing you can just charge for the labour and not be selling the rom/translation etc.

[MottZilla]

This is part of why I wish someone (RetroZone maybe) would sell new PCBs along with shells for both SNES and NES games with mappers like MMC3. Maybe it would discourage some of the tearing up of perfectly good original games. Though the point is usually made that many games are so dirt cheap that it would be hard to beat the cost and that these profiteers are cheap. It seems like the only way it will stop is when supplies run out or get too expensive. Or maybe lots of people will lose interest.

Oh and making a cartridge with just a socket, that would be fine, if you are actually making it. If you are just modding an existing cartridge, well that's silly unless it is for a developer that can't use a flash cart for some sort of test program. Almost no one would be programming EPROMs and plugging them into a socket to just pirate games.

[Bad_Ad84]

I am just saying that making a repro and soldering in a eprom for someone would be exactly the same work (therefore exactly the same labour cost) as soldering in a socket and let the "customer" plug in their own eeprom.

As they are the same work and the same price - it sounds surely that you are just charging the labour of the work - not "the actual game/rom/translation" rather than profiting from the translation.

Which has been widely known/accepted in the Linux world since forever, which is all I am trying to convey.

Regarding the argument that the translation existing has causes the person to ask you to do it, therefore causing you profit - the same case can be said about flash carts, which everyone is deeming acceptable.

Its one or the other. If the labour of creating/build flashing carts is fine, I dont see why doing the soldering for someone whos incapable and charging them for that isnt. Hell, the answer earlier in this thread for people who cant make their own repros was "buy a flash cart" - giving who ever made them profit for their labour as a result of the translation existing.


How about this... if someone wants to build their own repro but doesnt have a programmer - is it acceptable for me to program their chip for free? I am not profiting at all, they just need to cover postage.

So how about I mod a cart, fit a socket for them which contains no eprom? we are still good? ok..

Then I insert the eprom into the socket before shipping it. Now what?


Now, I can completely understand people being pissed about people charging crazy money and profiting like mad. But I dont think someone doing the soldering work for someone incapable is the same league.

[djelaba]

You keep ignoring my hypothetical cart with a socket.
Also, what website? I do not have a website.....?

Sorry, I though timewalkgames was your website.
But yeah, a cart with a socket would be fine.
Anyway, you see my point : people who sells overpriced repro...

[Mystical]

Translators and hackers have copyright on their work. Using it without their consent, making money can be called stealing, or if you have another term for that, I'm okay.

im sorry to jump in on this point but i must say that translators and hackers have ZERO copyright on their work since they are already Illegally hacking or modding the game, they should not be doing it and they have had no permission from the copyright holders to do such work, they have no legal backing to fall back on.

i would also like to point out that i am against people making reproductions and selling them for:
A) a large price
B) as original games

both of the above are out of order and quite frankly should be stopped, however the chances of stopping it are minimal at best, theirs far too much information out their about how to do this stuff and most people who have at least chipped a playstation should be in a position that they can do this, however theirs an awful lot of people who either can't be bothered to do it themselves or are not capable and they would go to people like Bad_Ad84 who would only charge for the materials and his time or go to one of the websites that are selling these for a large profit and continuing to create these on mass, i know who i would rather they go to, its people like Bad_Ad84 who are not trying to rip people off and just provide a service, not a reproduction cart as such

however i would point out that if i want to:

A) take a game and desolder the original games eprom, then replace it with another from a game that i would not otherwise be able to get/afford
B) buy an old retro game, say a Snes cart or a Genesis game and take it home and smash it with a hammer
C) buy up every copy of a particular game (as an example Super Mario World) and burn every last copy
D) buy an old game and just play it

all of the above are my choices because once i have purchased something its my right to do what i want with it, people saying you should not destroy old carts etc. that is your verdict on the situation not mine, once i have something i can do what i want with it, if i want to damage or destroy a game then its my choice

i have no problem with flashcarts, i have no problem with reproductions providing you are not passing them off as originals and ripping people off
however all these things are used for nefarious means (i dont care what anyone says, flash carts are not used for homebrew 99% of the time, it's piracy that encourages people to get flashcarts, it's the reason i have mine and the reason most people get them)

[Lum]

I guess so. The translators own only what they created. Unplayable without merging into the copyrighted game it's intended to patch.

[Bad_Ad84]

Sorry, I though timewalkgames was your website.

That explains a lot with how this conversation has gone lol.

Its not my site, I do not "make repros" - I occasionally help people with theirs, which is the point I have tried to get across.

[Calpis]

I think device programming is a perfectly fine and in rare cases noble service. But personally I would refuse to program ROMs that were clearly going into repros and if the person is annoying about it I would stop dealing with them altogether. Nobody can honestly say they are oblivious to the data being burned, or that what the buyer chooses to do with the data is their right (until they get permission from the IP holder...), people don't pay to have ROMs programmed with games for theoretical/educational purposes, they intend to use them.

[Bad_Ad84]

My stance would be - its certainly copyright infringement to burn a rom (with a translation applied or not) toward who ever released the game. The translator - not so much (assuming programmed for free) - as its freely available to download and intended for use by anyone.

I have certainly refused to program chips and I certainly pick and choose who I do it for.

But, I wasn't getting into the copyright infringement side of things - another argument for another day :)

[MottZilla]

however i would point out that if i want to:

A) take a game and desolder the original games eprom, then replace it with another from a game that i would not otherwise be able to get/afford
B) buy an old retro game, say a Snes cart or a Genesis game and take it home and smash it with a hammer
C) buy up every copy of a particular game (as an example Super Mario World) and burn every last copy
D) buy an old game and just play it

all of the above are my choices because once i have purchased something its my right to do what i want with it, people saying you should not destroy old carts etc. that is your verdict on the situation not mine, once i have something i can do what i want with it, if i want to damage or destroy a game then its my choice

No one is arguing that it isn't. The point was made that this is a bad practice. There are not as many game cartridges out there as you would believe. People always cite that there are so many copies of shitty sports games no one wants. While that may be true, every day there are less cartridges out there. They get damaged or even thrown away. Now you're adding people hacking them up to the mix, which isn't so bad when someone makes a dev cart or something like that. Or even to make their one favorite game on a translated cart. It's when lots of people are making lots of carts for other people that there is a significant drain. And again, there is a finite number of carts left. History shows us that people just assume resources are endless until one day it smacks them in the face that they've blown through the whole supply.

[djelaba]

im sorry to jump in on this point but i must say that translators and hackers have ZERO copyright on their work since they are already Illegally hacking or modding the game, they should not be doing it and they have had no permission from the copyright holders to do such work, they have no legal backing to fall back on.

This question should be debated in a court to be sure. The translation rights varies among the countries, but the software code created by the hacker can't be "derivative work", and so, is copyrighted.
It doesn't matter if this code is used in a illegal way. Translation aren't distributed with the rom, but with a patch.
But there are already debates about the legality of translation/romhacks, and as Bad_Ad84 said, another argument for another day ;)

[The Perfect K]

im sorry to jump in on this point but i must say that translators and hackers have ZERO copyright on their work since they are already Illegally hacking or modding the game, they should not be doing it and they have had no permission from the copyright holders to do such work, they have no legal backing to fall back on.

IPS patches are perfectly legal, and they don't need any permission to do so.

[pool7]

It's not the legality of the IPS patch itself... it's the legality of the translation.
The "script" (as in movies) that you're translating is part of the game, so it is copyrighted as well. If you translate it and share it (either free or for a fee) it could be/is considered illegal, since you didn't ask/get the rights to translate and distribute it (in whatever form, be it the text, an IPS Patch or any other means).

[Mystical]

It's not the legality of the IPS patch itself... it's the legality of the translation.
The "script" (as in movies) that you're translating is part of the game, so it is copyrighted as well. If you translate it and share it (either free or for a fee) it could be/is considered illegal, since you didn't ask/get the rights to translate and distribute it (in whatever form, be it the text, an IPS Patch or any other means).

this, however pool7 explained it better than i could

[Azathoth]

Some random, rambling points...

Finite supplies
About a year ago I ran across a seller that had an unlicensed SNES game I had been wanting to pick up. I collect mostly unlicensed stuff and SNES games are usually confined to the South American market so even though the game was about twice the amount I'd normally have to pay it was from an English speaking seller that shipped to America so I figured it was worth the price. After it arrived I noticed it wasn't the original print run but a semi-professional counterfeit. It had a newly manufactured cart shell and a newly manufactured PCB, the only thing that possibly came from sac'ed carts was the CIC chip. Here's the PCB and here's the shell.

Point of that story being that I don't really think cart supplies for most classic systems that repros are made for are in such a short supply that they're worth worrying about. A lot of components are still being manufactured today (although it may be from Chinese bootleggers). Proprietary chips like the DSP or FX chip might be considered "uncommon" when compared to say MD shells, but what is that amount compared to all the original carts being lost, thrown away, or basically rotting on overpriced flea market shelves?

Price stratification
Some people may be content with emulation, others may want to play on real hardware with a flash cartridge or copier. I don't see anyone going through the effort to make or spend money on an actual repro cart would want just a PCB shoved in a blank shell. I'd consider repros more of a collector's deal, they want something that is visually appealing sitting on their collection shelf. In that instance they're only worth whatever you're willing to pay for them. A SNES repro with a nice custom cardboard box and manual might not be worth $10 to one person but would easily be worth $100 to another for a variety of reasons. Maybe they don't have the time, ability, or resources to make their own. Like anything else, a repro is only "worth" what someone is willing to pay for it.

A fool and his money
Last week I sold a Mega Drive cart on eBay I had duplicates of to a guy for $14. When it sold I put my other copy up. A few days later he sends me a shitty note saying "I thought you said this game was rare but you've already got another copy of it for sale, are you just copying these or what". Nevermind that $14 is virtually nothing, or that almost every item on eBay has the word "rare" somewhere in the listing. This rube obviously knew absolutely nothing about the game he was buying or it's value (or how to pay on time since he still hasn't paid). Apparently in his mind "rare" was synonymous with "only known copy in existence".

A lot of people have a contention with repros being sold for big money, i.e.: much more than the investment put in by the maker. If someone puts a repro up on this forum the majority of members that might be interested can look at it and gauge what they consider to be a fair price. Same as if it was for sale on any other gamer or collector forum filled with aficionados. Put that fucker on eBay and you've entered a whole other dimension of lunacy. Retards with more money than sense that have absolutely no idea about anything at all are going to be bidding against each other in a fight to see who can overpay the quickest. I'm sure anyone that has sold a niche product like import games can attest to the level of stupidity that is shown when putting items like that out into a market where people have no idea in what they're dealing with. In that case, its it really the repro maker's fault when some moron overpays? Being deceptive is one thing, but when you plainly state what the product is and it still reaches 3 digit prices... why report the seller? When will eBay implement the "report a fucking idiot bidder" button?

[MottZilla]

The best point about this is another thread on the forum about the guy trying to buy Earthbound and receiving a bootleg. This is the whole problem. It would be another thing if the bootleg was in some way announcing that it wasn't "original" or something like that. I was browsing ebay today for SNES Mega Man games and came across some seller with a handful of bootlegs up for auction including Terranigma "Rare English Version" and Seiken Densetsu 3. As you said, idiots will pay obscene amounts for them and the seller profits immensely. While it isn't the "fault" of the seller that people pay huge amounts, it is still their fault that they made an illegal copy of a game they don't own as well as benefit from a free fan made translation (in the case of certain games) that is critical to anyone wanting to buy the game in the first place as the japanese carts are far less desirable and cheaper.

[Lum]

That means there's a market interest not getting adequately fulfilled. People who want these games on an english cart have little choice but reproductions. The actual counterfeiters (who'd use new parts) aren't making them.

[MottZilla]

Actual counterfeiters? Anyone that makes bootleg carts is a counterfeiter. The reason people make Earthbound bootlegs is not just because of market demand. It's because people saw Earthbound carts, legit ones, go for big bucks. When you can make a counterfeit of the game for very little and sell it for alot of money to unsuspecting buyers and are a big enough asshole to do that, you do that for the money.

If someone wants to make bootleg Earthbound or other carts I really don't care but have some respect like RetroZone, and make it impossible to mistake for a legit cartridge. When you copy the label 1:1 and make no mention that it is not original, you're being a huge dishonest asshole. It's a shame to see what used to be a NeoGeo MVS problem of needing to show photos of the PCB to be sure it wasn't a bootleg spread to every other cartridge game console.

I guess your point is people that would make brand new carts that are bootlegs aren't making them. Which I'm not sure that would be a good thing anyway. RetroZone I know offers Star Ocean and I believe plans to offer Final Fantasy V which is good news as they will be all new parts.