PAL Saturn - Is this slowdown normal for a modded console?

[geluda]

So I had my Saturn modded a while ago and ever since day one I've had issues with it. I don't know if these issues are normal or not so I'm not to say right now that there's a problem with it, but that's what I'm trying to find out because if there is a problem with it I want to try and find out what the problem is and if I can fix it. Pretty much the most obvious problem is that I'm noticing slowdown in places where the console Probably shouldn't be getting it. Most notably is Panzer Dragoon Saga, I posted a thread about which I'll link below where you can see videos of the slowdown in question. I'm experiencing it with not only the final game but also the prototype as well in the exact same locations. What could cause this? Can a bad dump cause ingame slowdown? Or perhaps bad media? I would consider them to be the least likely answers but I don't really know. What about a PAL console? Does a PAL console usually have problems playing NTSC games? The console was modded with a mod chip, the switchless hz mod with LED and a multi bios so that's the only thing I can think, but according to a person in the thread the slowdown isn't normal so something has to be causing it. :/

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums...-Saturn-for-me

[APE]

60hz NTSC games slowing down when forced to run in 50hz mode? I'm sure you'll find slowdown.

[Druid II]

Some games behave erratically when in different hz modes. In fact some games behave like crap in either modes, you just don't notice it because you are too used to the *other* mode the machine is running in. I recall Nights being way crappier in 60hz mode than in 50hz - even when you compare usa disc and usa machine vs pal disc and pal machine.

[geluda]

60hz NTSC games slowing down when forced to run in 50hz mode? I'm sure you'll find slowdown.

This is an NTSC game running on a PAL machine in 60hz mode.

Some games behave erratically when in different hz modes. In fact some games behave like crap in either modes, you just don't notice it because you are too used to the *other* mode the machine is running in. I recall Nights being way crappier in 60hz mode than in 50hz - even when you compare usa disc and usa machine vs pal disc and pal machine.

Thanks. So is this only typical on PAL machines or is this the same as NTSC machines as well? I guess to rephrase that question, are both PAL machines and NTSC machines the same despite which hz setting they're set to? I'm wondering if a PAL machine is not the best machine to play NTSC games on, and/or vice versa. My guess would be that they're the same although I couldn't be certain. You say Nights is crappy in 60hz, can you go into a little more detail of the PAL disc PAL machine - NTSC disc NTSC machine comparison? Are there actual differences? I'm wondering whether I should have modded my NTSC machine instead of the PAL one.

[Druid II]

It's entirely game dependent and could happen on any console whatsoever.

Saturns are the same exact hardware in pal or ntsc, the difference between the two is a crystal oscillator and a few jumpers, and some cosmetic things. The 50/60hz setting is one such jumper.

Nights has slowdown and this "polygons are falling apart" effect that it sometimes does, and it's more noticeable when running the game in 60hz. The game was not PAL optimized, so running the PAL version in 60hz is the same thing as running an NTSC version.

PAL machines output 50hz so they are capped at 50fps, but the cpus in the machine still run at the same Mhz speed. So they have the same amount of resources but they have to achieve a lower target speed, as a consequence they have ever-so-slightly more power available, and this results in less slowdowns.

[geluda]

PAL machines output 50hz so they are capped at 50fps, but the cpus in the machine still run at the same Mhz speed. So they have the same amount of resources but they have to achieve a lower target speed, as a consequence they have ever-so-slightly more power available, and this results in less slowdowns.

But this is only relevant before modding, right? Once you switch it to 60hz it runs the same as an NTSC machine because suddenly its no longer capped at 50fps? Does connecting that jumper make the two region consoles run virtually the same? I was just a bit surprised to experience more slowdown in 60hz than 50hz because usually switching to 60hz is associated with being the superior setting, I'm surprised to find that PAL users actually got a better deal in a lot of cases despite boarders and slower game speed.

[Druid II]

What modding? It's relevant to any 50hz machine, which is the same as any 60hz machine minus one jumper.

60hz is superior because you get full speed and the original intended speed as almost all games are developed in 60hz machines. They make 60hz games run as intended. So if the PAL versions end up running better than they are originally intended? Shit happens, live with it.

And again: you are splitting hairs over nonsensical problems.

[geluda]

What modding? It's relevant to any 50hz machine, which is the same as any 60hz machine minus one jumper.

60hz is superior because you get full speed and the original intended speed as almost all games are developed in 60hz machines. They make 60hz games run as intended. So if the PAL versions end up running better than they are originally intended? Shit happens, live with it.

And again: you are splitting hairs over nonsensical problems.

You were saying that PAL machines are capped at 50fps, what I was asking was if that cap is only relevant untill you mod the machine, which is upped to 60fps once you switch it to 60hz. I just didn't expect more slowdown in 60hz because I never considered how the frame rate pushes the hardware. I'm not bothered about something which is natural for the system, as long as the Saturn is working correctly that's all that matters. Thanks for the help.

[Lum]

The extend of difference depends if NTSC and PAL saturns have the same cpu speed.

Weren't consoles like NES, SNES, and Megadrive given a slight clock rate change for PAL?

[Druid II]

You were saying that PAL machines are capped at 50fps, what I was asking was if that cap is only relevant untill you mod the machine, which is upped to 60fps once you switch it to 60hz. I just didn't expect more slowdown in 60hz because I never considered how the frame rate pushes the hardware. I'm not bothered about something which is natural for the system, as long as the Saturn is working correctly that's all that matters. Thanks for the help.

PAL machines are capped at 50fps because they run on a 50hz display, there physically aren't any more frames to display. Obviously if you change the system to run in 60hz, it will be magically capped at 60fps instead.
The framerate DOES push the hardware quite a bit. Early polygonal hardware was more limited speed wise, more than you think.

The extend of difference depends if NTSC and PAL saturns have the same cpu speed.

Weren't consoles like NES, SNES, and Megadrive given a slight clock rate change for PAL?

Very old machines did that because they used the same crystal for system speed as well as pal/ntsc color encoding. I don't know about the NES/SNES, but the Megadrive used a very high main clock, with the same divider, so the clockspeed change was very minimal and the system probably still came out faster in PAL mode.
The Saturn has a dedicated PLL for generating clockspeeds both from PAL and NTSC crystals: model 2 NTSC machines started using a cheaper third party PLL, but it couldn't handle PAL crystals, so they had to stick to the original custom PLL for PAL machines even on later boards.
I'm not 100% sure if the clockspeeds are different or not, but I strongly suspect that they are the same due to various factors.