How Much Japanese Does a Traveler Need to Know?

[MasterOfPuppets]

In about three years time my friends and I plan on going to Japan for a couple weeks. I'm the one that's going to be the translator because I'm the only one who wants to take the time to learn the language, so I want to get on this right away. I've been self-teaching for a while now, but without much effort, so I know most of the Hiragana, some of the Katakana, a few (10/20) words and a very simple grasp of the grammar.

I understand that the Japanese do not speak English very well (justifiably so, seeing it's not their native language), so how much Japanese should I learn to be able to get by comfortably? If I can master a workbook like, "Japanese For Busy People I", would that be sufficient?

[ave]

To get along, you basically don't need to speak a word. To have some fun (read signs, save time getting somewhere, ask for the way, ask for items in shops), working through a textbook is enough. I had a very basic knowledge in Japanese when I went there (2 semesters including kana, basic communication & some few Kanji) and I was able to conduct some short conversations even though the people I spoke to did not understand English at all.

Going to Japan without any knowledge of the language would take away a little bit of the experience from my point of view, but maybe that's just me. I was always amazed when I could read all the stuff on those neon signs and in shops, that definitely made my day more than once.

So I guess even if you are planning to talk to native speakers for a bit, then working ambitiously through a textbook should be enough. Of course, more is always better when it comes to language skills... so depending on how in depth your conversation shall become, the more you will have to learn. Studying all on your own without an instructor might be a bit tiresome though. If this is not your only option then I'd consider taking a course somewhere instead.

[cez]

Take a crash course in conversation at some language school or find a Japanese (student maybe) for language exchange. You're talking about the distant future here and a lot can be done in three years but learning from a textbook alone will be rather boring and will have disappointing results.

I understand that the Japanese do not speak English very well (justifiably so, seeing it's not their native language (...)

That alone is no excuse. Look for example at the Scandinavians who in general are excellent English speakers. The inefficient language education in Japanese schools and the low exposure to English in everyday life is to blame.

[cypherpunk]

Technically, each volume of "Japanese for Busy People" is designed for two semesters of studying. So if you are going in 3 years, you should be able to finish all three books, and that would allow you to converse rather well.

Now, there are different aspects to learning Japanese. First of all, learn katakana. Vast majority of loan words are written in it, and in a metropolitan setting, you will see it rather often. Foreigner or not, if you can read ホテル on a building, or コーヒー　on a menu, you will know what it is (To be fair, however, occasionally loan words used are quite a stretch from original usage).

Second, concentrate on speaking and listening. Pronunciation of Japanese is not complicated (at least compared to Mandarin Chinese), so if you have a basic grasp of Spanish, you can pronounce Japanese words. Try to use language tapes (I say "tapes" out of habit, but most likely CDs and mp3s). For example, as much as the female student on "Michel Thomas Method Japanese" pisses me off (You'll know once you listen to them), they are decent tapes for beginners, teach some rather complicated grammar points and are a great supplement for a decent textbook (but not replacement, since they won't teach you some basics, like counting). Majority of other tapes try to teach you set phrases or build up your vocabulary, so just exercise your judgement, and use the tapes properly - pause them and repeat, paying attention to pronunciation. Every once in while, record yourself, and listen to yourself and to the instructor, to identify pronunciation problems that creep up.

Talking about textbooks, "Japanese for Busy People" or "Genki" or "Minna no Nihongo" all are not bad. Stay away from "Nakama".

"Japanese for Busy People" is more adult oriented, and deal more with the business settings or situations and business concepts. Decent books, three volumes, although rather light on kanji. Decent explanation of grammar. Ho hum.

"Genki" is basically for high school kids, and covers things like dating, living with host family, etc. There are two books, second editions of them just came out last year, while the first edition you should be able to find cheaply used. First edition were in use for over 20 years, and there were over 20 printings, so they are commonly available used). What will be hard is finding the workbooks for the first edition (since they are consumables), but in a pinch second edition workbooks can be used. First edition "Genki" has very little in a way of culture notes, however, and for an adult could be somewhat silly. Some of the shortcomings are addressed in the second edition, but, like I mentioned, with over 20 printings, it is tried and true, however you might find content, and presentation of content rather childish. Has great support web site ("Genki online"), with tons of extra material. Two volumes, each volume consists of 11 or 12 lessons, generally aiming at a year (two semesters) of high school studying each.

My beef with "Nakama" is not that it is a bad textbook. It is OK, and tries to address some of the shortcomings of first edition of "Genki" (culture notes, some memory aides to help with memorizing kana). I used second edition of Nakama 1 and 2 (or more precisely 1a and 1b and 2) the year second editions came out, and boy, did it have typos and mistakes. That's the main problem, as I found it - it is not a commonly used textbook (Although publisher is pushing it pretty hard), and mistakes in a textbook lead to frustrated students. Really. Two textbooks, generally aiming at a year of university (two semesters) each. You can find them in 1a and 1b printings too – that's the first year textbook broken up into two halves, each a semester long.

"Minna no Nihongo" is a modular textbook, with the core being all in Japanese, and then there are notes in 4 or 5 languages, that go with it. Some people like it, however I had a very brief exposure to it, so I can't say much, other then it's been around for ages too. As common as "Genki".

Take a crash course in conversation at some language school or find a Japanese (student maybe) for language exchange. You're talking about the distant future here and a lot can be done in three years but learning from a textbook alone will be rather boring and will have disappointing results.

Or, if you live in a metropolitan area where there are some Japanese people, see if there is a Japanese school or a study group near by. Consulate or Embassy might be a good source of information too.

That alone is no excuse. Look for example at the Scandinavians who in general are excellent English speakers. The inefficient language education in Japanese schools and the low exposure to English in everyday life is to blame.

This is an unfair comparison and you know it. Comparing Scandinavians (which is a broad comparison, but you likely mean Swedes and Finns) to Japanese is not correct. First of all, Swedish, for example (Jag pratar lite svenska), is half way between German and English, and grammar is very similar. Japanese, on the other hand, uses grammar that is "topic comment" based, and is very different from pretty much any other language with exception of Korean. Second, with exception of two or three letters ('å', 'ä' and 'ö'), it is the same Latin alphabet, while Japanese is the only living language in existence (Koreans stopped doing this years ago), where, because it is phonem poor (ie lots of words pronounced the same, yet mean different things), both the ideograms (kanji) and grammatical conjugational aids (kana) are used. Chinese doesn't cut it - things are not conjugated in Chinese, so in many ways Chinese grammar is simpler. Point I am making, is that if you know Swedish, learning English is not too hard comparatively. If you know Japanese, learning English is a very alien experience.

That, coupled with lack of need to learn English (because for many people it is not needed in daily life), is why not many take the time and the effort....

[MasterOfPuppets]

Thanks to all for the comments!

Going to Japan without any knowledge of the language would take away a little bit of the experience from my point of view, but maybe that's just me. I was always amazed when I could read all the stuff on those neon signs and in shops, that definitely made my day more than once.

I agree with that, being able to read signs like you said would definitely add to the experience. That's what I want to be able to do by the time I get there.

Studying all on your own without an instructor might be a bit tiresome though. If this is not your only option then I'd consider taking a course somewhere instead.

Take a crash course in conversation at some language school or find a Japanese (student maybe) for language exchange. You're talking about the distant future here and a lot can be done in three years but learning from a textbook alone will be rather boring and will have disappointing results.

Or, if you live in a metropolitan area where there are some Japanese people, see if there is a Japanese school or a study group near by. Consulate or Embassy might be a good source of information too.

I was also looking into a class as you three suggested, seeing as I'm sure I would learn much more much faster if I did take the class. There's a few places around me, so I may end up going that route.

Now, there are different aspects to learning Japanese. First of all, learn katakana. Vast majority of loan words are written in it, and in a metropolitan setting, you will see it rather often. Foreigner or not, if you can read ホテル on a building, or コーヒー　on a menu, you will know what it is (To be fair, however, occasionally loan words used are quite a stretch from original usage).

Definitely plan on learning the katakana. I imagine if someone traveling to Japan learned noting else, that would be the most helpful (not that I plan on going that route).

Talking about textbooks, "Japanese for Busy People" or "Genki" or "Minna no Nihongo" all are not bad. Stay away from "Nakama".

Thanks for the tips on the textbooks. One of the classes around where I live uses "Japanese for Bust People", so it's good to know that it's a good book.

[veganx]

Can I use this thread to also ask if you guys think: Is it possible to have a good time in Japan (Tokyo) going completely by yourself?

[Jamtex]

Yes, mainly as you then have lots of freedom to go exploring. I would recommend making some pen friends in Japan using the penpal / language exchange service on the Japan guide website as you'll be surprised on how friendly some Japanese people are once they get to know you and you'll likley meet them when you visit Japan, else you will find a lot of Japanese people very stand offish and not that friendly.

I got to Japan a lot and my Japanese still sucks, but I would recommend learning at least basic tourist Japanese so you can ask and look at products, ask for prices, order food in a resturant (quite important), being polite, how to ask for directions, order tickets and read basic signs.

Apart from being very american, the Pimsleur Japanese courses are good for listening and learning phrases. The listen, repeat, repeat again, repeat what you learnt 3 lessons ago, does help you remember a lot of useful phrases that you might need in day to day life. Even in 2 months you can learn enough to get by as a tourist, although not sure if you could have a in depth conversation.

[veganx]

When I was a kid I was in love by the japanese culture, samurais, animes, the respect, the technology, the games and so on, I had 6 months of japanese class. Now, since I finished my college with english/french/portuguese languages I'm going to restart my japanese classes. I never been to Japan but I imagine it would be an awesome place to live.

BTW, is it true that it's almost impossible to get robbed in Tokyo and you can walk on the streets at 3 A.M. without worrying?

By the way, it would be awesome to start a thread here in assembler go gather people interested in games but that also want to learn a different language or culture. I usually hang out on MSN a lot, since I work on my PC and to be honest, since mIRC died in my country, I never met someone interesting again, facebook and msn only let you talk to the same old boring people as you did in the past 3 or 4 years. I really miss learning something. That's one of the main reasons I joined AssemblerGames, because I know so little and I can watch people with so my knowledge discuss and I can improve my own knowledge. To me, that's the key for joy. Sorry for misleading a little bit the thread but I wanted to express my point of view in overseas friendship.

[richi902]

yeah back then, when msn still had that "public" profile search, i did met a lot of japanese and korean people via msn,
but now since they changed it, i never met new people via msn anymore lol.

[spot778]

When I was a kid I was in love by the japanese culture, samurais, animes, the respect, the technology, the games and so on, I had 6 months of japanese class. Now, since I finished my college with english/french/portuguese languages I'm going to restart my japanese classes. I never been to Japan but I imagine it would be an awesome place to live.

BTW, is it true that it's almost impossible to get robbed in Tokyo and you can walk on the streets at 3 A.M. without worrying?

By the way, it would be awesome to start a thread here in assembler go gather people interested in games but that also want to learn a different language or culture. I usually hang out on MSN a lot, since I work on my PC and to be honest, since mIRC died in my country, I never met someone interesting again, facebook and msn only let you talk to the same old boring people as you did in the past 3 or 4 years. I really miss learning something. That's one of the main reasons I joined AssemblerGames, because I know so little and I can watch people with so my knowledge discuss and I can improve my own knowledge. To me, that's the key for joy. Sorry for misleading a little bit the thread but I wanted to express my point of view in overseas friendship.

You'll be fine by yourself, might even enjoy the trip more :)

Tokyo is stupid safe compared to pretty much anywhere on earth I've visited. Never felt unsafe or anything there. Saw girls walking down streets you wouldn't dare walk down at that time of night over in North America. Of course you should always be aware of your surroundings, but honestly that's the last thing I would worry about.

My Japanese was laughable when I went and it still is but it was quite easy getting around knowing your "basics" numbers from 1-10, hello, goodbye, etc... Only english I got was from two restaurant owners and that was pretty limited to "Wasabi ok ?" Everyone else spoke Japanese and I would nod bow and smile, and make that Japanese grunt sound which can be interpreted as a wide variety of meaning.

Lack of language didn't matter at all, getting around was stupid easy, riding the subway even easier. Even if I wasn't where I thought I was, I wasn't lost, I knew I was too far east/west etc..

Now trying to find a specific store or place can be a bit tricky, but if you have the info you can show it to someone and they'll point you in the right direction.

Don't be afraid to ask though, saw tons of locals helping out other tourists as I walked around.

[Calpis]

I second none. You'll just need extra help from strangers and thus can't be shy or mind looking a little stupid, that is if you plan to travel at all and eat somewhere other than a combini. Lots of cheaper restaurants have pictographic menus so even that's not such a big deal, just don't have any dietary restrictions. I had exposure to Japanese people and culture growing up, had an exchange student and studied elementary Japanese for at least 7 years before I went and I still needed assistance, you'll never really be prepared to do everything without it. Having good pronunciation and a bit of vocabulary will get you far and that's where I'd put in the effort over grammar and keigo mastery which are nice but not expected of foreigners. I'm not sure what the foreigner sentiment is like there now but people were pretty gracious about helping me in 2004 (holy crap it's been 8 years).

[Yakumo]

BTW, is it true that it's almost impossible to get robbed in Tokyo and you can walk on the streets at 3 A.M. without worrying?

Japanese will say Japan is dangerous. I know down here people say that Fukuoka City is dangerous. Maybe it is compared to other parts of Japan but compared to any western city it's as safe as you could imagine.

I walk around at 3, 4, 5 am quite a lot when I've been drinking. I've been doing this for over 10 years without ever having a problem. Mind you, being a big western guy probably helps.

Yakumo

[Giel]

Japan is by far the safest country I've visited. Does that mean it's 100% foolproof? Nope. Are your chances of getting robbed / into trouble smaller than in most other countries (especially Asia)? Yes, by far.

[ave]

I've been to a couple of different countries myself and Japan was by far the safest - I could walk around in the middle of the night anywhere in the city (well, not outside my hotel area after 12 because the last Yamanote line departs so early... but still) and there's no one giving you trouble. It's definitely different in cities like Berlin, London, Paris, where there can be aggressive juveniles talking to you and you never know where that leads. I think being a caucasian man is also an advantage. In European big cities you might rather wanna walk in a group if it's after midnight... at least my experience. Although I roamed around in Paris in the middle of the night alone and didn't get attacked... but it didn't feel safe compared to the playland that is Japan, so just my thoughts.

The only danger comes from those people who wanna drag you into stripclubs where they rip you off with $100 drinks and strange philippinean hostesses. Don't go there. And just a hint, it's usually black people who would drag you in those, this is not racist but just a fact that I discovered when I was there. Whenever I went to Shinjuku at night, lots of people from Senegal or South Africa (as they told me) would pop up and start talking to you about how much peep show fun you can have in their clubs. Don't go there, it's not fun but a ripoff.

[Anton69]

That alone is no excuse. Look for example at the Scandinavians who in general are excellent English speakers. The inefficient language education in Japanese schools and the low exposure to English in everyday life is to blame.

Your logic is retarded. All European languages have latin letters and they sound almost the same in every country. It's 100 times easier to lear another european language than to learn something entirely different.

And why should people living in Japan learn English, if they don't need it? I know a lot of people from Japan who speak Korean and Chinese - they live in Asia and learn their languages. You leave in Europe - that's why you learn English. It doesnt mean that the whole world must speak it.

[GaijinPunch]

And why should people living in Japan learn English, if they don't need it?

They shouldn't, but the fact is everyone takes it for at least 6 years, and a huge number continue on through college and even via private lessons afterwards. And 90% of them are still awful at it. The only the thing wrong w/ cez's statement is that he didn't make it a blanket comment about education in general. Japanese education focuses on memorization, not logic, and not teaching the student how to learn. The state of the general population's grasp of English is an encapsulation of that.

[spot778]

They shouldn't, but the fact is everyone takes it for at least 6 years, and a huge number continue on through college and even via private lessons afterwards. And 90% of them are still awful at it. The only the thing wrong w/ cez's statement is that he didn't make it a blanket comment about education in general. Japanese education focuses on memorization, not logic, and not teaching the student how to learn. The state of the general population's grasp of English is an encapsulation of that.

We have the same thing in Canada, in Ontario you are forced to take french for X years, am I fluent hell no, I know my numbers, hello, goodbye etc.. and not much else. Doesn't mean me and all my mates speak french.

[GaijinPunch]

Native English speakers are also famous for being shit at speaking a 2nd language. The main difference is Japanese seem to try hard, and spend lots of money in the process of being awful.

[cez]

All European languages have latin letters and they sound almost the same in every country. It's 100 times easier to lear another european language than to learn something entirely different.

Europe is bigger than you let it be. Why should it be easier for a Latvian to learn Spanish than for a Japanese to learn English? The alphabet argument doesn't work. Simply because you don't have to know the alphabet to learn how to speak a language.

Also, even if I am against generalizing, look at the different levels of English proficiency in the European countries. According to your argument we should all speak English at the same level. If I compare my Austrian friends and colleagues with people I know from Finland or Sweden, this is clearly not true, the latter being more fluent and having better pronounciation in general. How so? And all that while German and English are very close in terms of grammar, vocabulary and structure.

Finally, I have worked for the past years in adult education in three different countries, including Japan. Almost all of my Japanese students were struggling with expressing themselves fluently in English, even after more than 10 years of studying it in school, university or with private tutors. The need to learn the language is there obviously, as language schools around every corner all over the country testify.

[Anton69]

cez, all you say is really true, but why the alphabet argument doesn't work? Only kids can speak a language without learning the alphabet. But when you start to learn another language - you start from the alphabet. I don't know Spanish or French, but when I see something written in that languages I can at least try to read it and guess the meaning. I might be wrong in 50%, but at least it wouldnt look like something from another planet. And when I see Chinese or Japanese text - there is no way I can even try to read, pronounce or understand it)) That's the whole difference for me. I'm Russian and Latvian sounds familiar for me. And also Estonian, Poland, Ukrainian and lots of others eastern-Europe languages. I also know English and German a little. And despite all their differences, they all origin from Latin and share one alphabet.