Opinion : For the new members : We owe you nothing

[Borman]

And at the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with hoarding. If someone purchased an item, was given an item, or otherwise has an item in their position, it is their item. Not mine. Not yours. But that specific person's. Everyone hates when I use the example of a car, but put it this way. Letting me borrow your car and copying a game are quite similar, in terms of the end result. No, a car can't be copied (yet). Yes, a game can. But if you let me borrow your car, and let me drive it, break parts, and otherwise put wear and tear on it, the value drops. Copying a game drops the value in almost all cases. Copying is the equivalent of me driving your car to the ground. That copying killed value of my game, me driving your car killed its value.

[Bloodsack]

I just came here and it's a great site so far, but have no fear....I will never ask for beta software or anything else.

I'm here to talk games and maybe do a trade or two.

[Borman]

Its not even the asking that bothers me (and most), its the demanding.

[CodeAsm]

Its not even the asking that bothers me (and most), its the demanding.

Why do (mostly young) people think that will work on the internet? demanding?
Actually, this is not a question. more a sentence for "them" to think about.

I dont know a correct English way to say it but i try: I give my respect to those who contribute, allow others to learn, enjoy or just plain download(and or recieve) stuff(hard or software) from this website or closely related. also sometimes after a donation run.

[superspeed]

I want a hand out can I get one? :P Only kidding, I know the feeling sometimes. I have a lot of things that quit a few people want and they expect me to just hand them over to them just because I have them.

[Borman]

Money talks, as the saying goes. Selfish? No, not to those who actual buy the things hah, only to those who are left wanting.

[superspeed]

Money talks, as the saying goes. Selfish? No, not to those who actual buy the things hah, only to those who are left wanting.

I hear that. Mainly it's a bunch of kids trying to mooch off others creations just to get their E-***** just a little bigger. I'm just getting into the software side of things and am realizing it's no cake-walk. For someone to expect others to just hand out what they've worked hard on is just downright lazy.

[HEX1GON]

Money talks, as the saying goes. Selfish? No, not to those who actual buy the things hah, only to those who are left wanting.

Hardly Selfish, you spend thousands preserving videos games and hardware...

[Shinebi]

because you make your self out to be an untrustworthy person

I just hope that wasn't addressed to ME, for the 'provider' wanted to do so himself, but needed a little 'reward' for it in return.
Following this line of thought, where HE sourced the contents from is not my business...
(and YES, I actually got explained this to me, and NO it wasn't what certain people here thought it to be initially)

Just wanted to make this clear, it was known beforehand.

[senzer]

spend your money, just don't cry about it for gods sake! do what you want - gloat if you feel the need! not sure who these mysterious forces are who constantly pester you for betas - but I know sure as hell it's not me!

[geluda]

I just hope that wasn't addressed to ME, for the 'provider' wanted to do so himself, but needed a little 'reward' for it in return.
Following this line of thought, where HE sourced the contents from is not my business...
(and YES, I actually got explained this to me, and NO it wasn't what certain people here thought it to be initially)

Just wanted to make this clear, it was known beforehand.

Hey, that wasn't directed at you, sorry if that came across the wrong way! :( I don't know the ins and outs of your deal so I couldn't comment, your post gave me the thought but I was just talking in general, not criticising you for what you said! My point was to emphasise trust between two parties, the reason people often keep quiet about things is because that's part of the deal which was made. Serious collectors make sure to respect the wishes of the people they trade with for various reasons, it's more important to remain a trustworthy person than it is to give the public free stuff, as nice as it is. There is a clear difference between hoarding because you're selfish and keeping to the conditions of a deal, the wants and the needs of the public doesn't change that a lot of the time releasing stuff to the public simply isn't an option, even if they wanted to.

[AleffCorrea]

It's just like the RE GBC beta... everybody who watched the THIA thread knows that at least one build in that auction came from them, and they had it for a long time. So what? How many dollars did you gave to them so they could buy it? If a group of collectors want to secretly buy some beta disks and play some frisbee on the park with them, that's none of your business anyway, their money, their rules. Do you think that's wrong? Then I COMMAND YOU TO RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE AND HAND ME OVER YOUR STUFF.

[The Perfect K]

If people are so hot and bothered by someone holding onto something that they spent thousands of dollars obtaining, perhaps they should organize a fund raiser to compensate the person who sought out the item in the first place. Surely if they want something that badly and feel that it's important enough to spread around online for others to enjoy, they could find enough people willing to chip in money to get something dumped.

drx releases tons of stuff, but it's not all out of his own pocket book. The Sonic community has near constant fund raisers to make sure that the burden of preserving video game history isn't entirely on the wallet of one single man.

Now then, if someone has a sought after item that is important to a particular community, who has raised money to get said item dumped, and that person doesn't dump it, I tend to believe that is a bit more prickish. At that point, it becomes the exact opposite of preservation, and turns into hording. But that's an entirely different point of contention. This topic is more about people asking for hand outs.

EDIT: As to borman's comment about value - hogwash. A legit prototype will always retain it's value, dumped or not. Going back to someone else's example of the gutenberg bible - that thing has been copies to high hell, but you'd be crazy if you think the value of the actual gutenberg bible has deminished. Same with Neo Geo AES vs Neo Geo MVS games - that Metal Slug MVS can be obtained fairly easily has done nothing to devalue the AES copy.

Hey, if you don't want to release a game when compensation has been raised for you, that's your perogrative. But it's also just as much the people who offered money's perogative to call you out on it.

[Borman]

But a legit prototype does NOT retain value when it is dumped. People have tried to sell some games that have been dumped (its been a while, but it has happened), and they just aren't worth it. Sure, there are exceptions, with certain prototypes still going for a good amount of money (Earthbound comes to mind). But I believe it was Propeller Arena that came up for sale again, and it didn't sell, at all.

I don't think calling out people is the right thing to do either. Calling people out because they refuse to share is just as selfish, and makes it seem like they are owed the game, and that money can buy anything in the world. It can't. "Here's money, GIVE ME IT!" isn't an answer. They can be upset all they want, but calling someone out isn't the way to do things.

The refusal to make something publicly available has nothing to do with preservation, nor should it be called hoarding. I have dumped at least one game, while sure, not very popular, has since disappeared from the net, and guess what? The original media is dead too! But Borman, you say, the Internet preserves everything. Apparently not, or at least not in any way that would make it useful since it clearly isn't available online. Look at Rent a Hero for the Xbox, that has practically disappeared off the net again too. If people were seriously into digital preservation, they would be reaching out and coming up with a system that isn't just placing a bunch of links online and hoping for the best. And hopefully, within a few short years, I can help with that. We'll see.

[The Perfect K]

You are right, it is just as selfish to call people out for not sharing. No one is arguing that. Rather, I'm saying that, in that instance, both parties are being selfish. Two wrongs, no rights.

I'm not saying anybody has any obligation to do anything. I'm rather saying that, for the benefit of everybody involved, a bit of perspective from both view points should be taken. Besides, in my original reply, I addressed compensation prior to delivery of a dumped prototype. There goes the argument about diminished value right away, because the person dumping the game should receive full compensation prior to his collectable's value being reduced.

I collect high dollar items too. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying as putting down my fellow collectors. I feel, however, that this "us vs them" mentality isn't beneficial to anybody in particular. We all love games in the end.

EDIT: And for the record, I've donated loads of money towards drx's funds as well. I see myself on both sides of the line on this topic.

[The Perfect K]

Also, I should specify that the intent of the dump should be considered. It's one thing to beg for a rare game to be dumped simply because you want to play it. It's another thing to beg for a rare game to be dumped for research purposes. Information gleaned from researching a prototype has effects far beyond that game itself. Take, for instance, the graphics compression code that was figured out from a Link's Awakening DX prototype dump, where the rom had been padded with whatever was left in memory (in this case, actual source code from the compiler).

You can't make broad statements about every prototype/rare item in existence. Items should be examined on a case by case basis. It does nobody any good to be completely unwilling to listen to the other side's viewpoint.

[Borman]

Right, I think it was more of an issue of misunderstanding the text, that is all. Of course, anyone out there should at least consider the upside to a release of a game, but there are far more people out there who can't understand the flip side of the same argument. And there is a lot of information on that flipside :)

[The Perfect K]

Hey no worries man, I think we both understand each others viewpoints and respect them. It's hard to converse through text at times, especially during a touchy subject such as collecting. You seem like a reasonable guy, which is all anybody can ask for. So long as people are willing to hear each other out and talk to each other, I don't think the truly important stuff will be too tightly guarded, to a degree where nobody can ever enjoy it.

I've been going to assembler since this site first started, and I've also been with the sonic hacking community since it was founded in 1997. During the whole Sonic X-treme incident, I felt embarrassed by both sites at time, and the situation could have certainly been handled a lot better by simply allowing those with such connections to discuss the situation calmly, and preferably in private. I understand that your complaints are namely to rom kiddies who only want to download thousand-game rom packs to play on their Windows XP PC using an xbox 360 controller, not necessarily to those who are experienced in collecting.

[arnoldlayne]

What anyone does with their property is their business, I don't think anyone can argue against that - But, if I release 'x' proto on the web and share it with hundreds of people - then that 'x' proto is pretty much guaranteed to be preserved, no matter what happens to me.

If I don't release 'x' proto and I get hit by a bus - that's shit is going straight in the bin by the person who picks it up and doesn't have a clue about what it is. Call it a rather depressing view of life - but I'd rather go with option a - Shit happens.

In an ideal world every single 'proto trader' would stop 'trading' rip and release everything they have and let everyone share in the joy.

"But then proto traders wouldn't have any motivation to look for any more protos!"

Now, is it the proto that interests you - or the fact that you simply have something 'rare'?

Hey, just my 2 cents - and, frankly speaking, the entire proto collecting crowd isn't going to do what I want - so I pretty much agree with Borman's original point. (just to make that point clear...) It's theirs, and we don't have any right to hassle them to release anything...

[Borman]

The Internet is a temporary solution to a much bigger problem. It temporarily preserves something at best. Ive had at least 1 prototype that I am darn near 100% certain I released that has since disappeared. What we need is a proper repository, a real museum, with genuine backups, redundancy, and access points.