Opinion : For the new members : We owe you nothing

[Borman]

I'm posting this because there has been an influx of new members, not just from this site but all over the web, sending me messages, begging me to send them unreleased or beta versions of games.

Guess what : We owe you nothing.

I, and many others,work my ass off to be able to preserve games. Not your loose definition of preserve that just has you downloading my files, bitching about them, and never playing them. But actually preserve them. I am getting my Master's in Library Science, I've talked with more librarians about digital preservation than you.

Better yet, you want all this stuff for free? Things that I worked my ass off and spent hundred and sometimes thousands of dollars to get. I am kind enough to give you video of it, for free. High quality, HD video that takes hundreds of dollars worth of equipment to make. Video that people, like yourself, copies, and then tries to make money off of.

Sorry, but that isn't happening. Some people do release things for free occasionally. So do I. But I, and many others, are not in the position to lose thousands of dollars just to satisfy your urge for consumption. If you want to spend the money, and release things for free, I always welcome it, and I appreciate everyone who does so.

But in the mean time, giving away things that have value, things that I have put money into, isn't going to put food on my table. Nor is it going to buy me a car. Do I need these things now? Nope, not yet. But should I need to sell some equipment, I would like it to retain the value as near as I can. And despite what you may thing, releasing games for free online absolutely destroys the value. And with the development market still reaching all-time lows, Ill need every penny I can get. Do I hope to make a profit on any of these items? No. But I am not going to shoot myself in the foot and piss away money for someone who can't even play most of the games that I collect.

So back to what I said at the beginning : We owe you nothing. No games. No video. No screenshots. No text about a game. Support those that put their hard earned money and time into getting these games, throw them a penny, throw them your support, but the second you make demands, I guarantee you that some game will go into 'hoarding' mode, and while it will be preserved, you will absolutely never see it.

[APE]

Though like books games were meant to be enjoyed. OTOH we don't let little Timmy into the back to rub Cheeto dust onto the Gutenburg Bible.

[brendand]

you tell them dude !

[Borman]

The reason I post this is because some idiot on my videos is riling me up. He wants me to just hand out freebies to everyone, to piss away my money. Do that if you want, but Im certainly in no position to do so. He talks about digital preservation like he knows what preservation means. Preservation isn't sharing files online, that is simply a stopgap measure for binaries. What happens when all the beta kits die? No one will be able to play them, ever.

Museums pay money for some items, believe it or not. They get money from donations, government funds, or entry fees. I get money from my hard work. If people started donating to me thousands of dollars, I would have no problem passing out files. But that isn't how the world works.

[APE]

If simply spreading the files around the internet was enough for "preservation" I wouldn't have half the trouble I do trying to track down stuff that was already put up as a download/torrent/whatever.

The thing I'd be worried about if I were you, and I'm sure you've contemplated this enough yourself, is that keeping everything you own in your home/apartment without something such as a halon system could be disastrous. I can't think of any librarian in the world who would feel happy knowing that their collection of Roman Era Egyptian Papyrus is insured to 300% of their "market" value if they were go up in flames. Granted the media will degrade and become unreadable but that doesn't mean the media itself shouldn't be kept for posterity. How many Edison records are little more than a blanket of noise with a slight audible sound underneath? Do we throw them out? Hell no we don't.

As for the beta kits dying, I'm way ahead of you. I've been accepted to start a BS in EE come fall. Part of my paranoia and interest is in preservation which a lot of my friends flat out can't comprehend. Being able to fashion replacement parts and repair work with shifting component supplies is something I want to specialize in if not for anything but a side interest to the main degree. If we can keep manufacturing replacement parts for cars not made in 80 years I don't see why a blown transistor on a XDK can't be replaced later.

[Borman]

Everything I have of value is stored in at least 2, usually three locations, or more. One is my apartment. One is my parents house hundreds of miles away.Third is a secure off-site backup in the cloud. I'm beginning to upgrade my backup system even further for more redundancy as it has become even cheaper to do so. That said, when it comes to the hardware, I am also taking proper steps in storing them whenever possible, keeping them out of the sun, in a relatively climate controlled area, and all that. Is it ideal? No, but like I said, things cost money :)

[APE]

Sounds like you've got your paranoia down as well as I have.

And you're right, absolute ideals are very expensive. Given most of this hardware was built for consumers to use and abuse storing an XBox debug kit between 65-75°F with 50-80% humidity is probably fine so long as it isn't rusting like mad already. OTOH I have seen what happens when the US Government drops reel after reel after reel of tape into an uncontrolled vault for 40 years. A solid mass of tape might still have usable data on it but good luck getting at it.

Now that I think about it the bigger problem with hardware would simply be capacitors leaking taking out a mass of traces with it. I can't think of any way around this problem beyond removing all capacitors prior to storage. Perhaps I'll invent a completely self-contained "leak proof" electrolytic capacitor replacement. Or completely solid state if possible. Then retire using my sweet patent portfolio to fund a private island.

[Borman]

That's why, as much as I fail to understand it, I like when people post the detail specifications of the individual chips. I may not know what it says, but I know it is important to have this information available to people in the future. Good emulation is a decent method as well, but as we've seen, good emulation and what people consider playable are two different things entirely. Even still, I doubt someone is going to waste a ton of time conjuring up an emulator for beta or alpha kits.

[Gmegbln]

I am a new member, but I totally see where you're coming from. I have no respect for people who pester others for things they paid for, especially when they get hostile and demand it like somehow they're "owed" it. I never expect anything for free, I understand that there's value for these and I have been gladly paying people to be able to use these myself

But I find it very hard to get into this "scene" (hate that word) because, as a new member, I'm trying to find out certain things and a lot of people are reluctant to help or even talk to you unless it involves giving them money for something, and it very much feels like an "old boy's club" that's almost impossible to get into because I lack contacts or anything that they'd want in return. Like everyone's in on a secret that nobody's willing to share. I get it though, loose lips sink ships and I'm sure these people have been burned before when they've done something "nice" and the other guy turned out to be an asshole of some sort so I'm not passing judgement or anything, by all means keep on keeping on. I'm just saying that, as someone who's trying to enjoy this scene, there's a lot of resistance to newbies unless you're a guy that knows a guy

Please don't see this as a personal attack to anybody on Assemblr or anything as I've mostly come across this at other places, there's a bunch of great people on Assemblr and I really like this community. I HAVE seen this elitism on this site though, and it's soured me to the whole "scene" in general. I also realize that this only vaguely relates to your original post Borman, I apologize and I am in no way challenging the message you're trying to convey and in fact wholeheartedly agree with it. The sense of entitlement some people have in regards to betas and such is mind-boggling. It's just this has been bugging me for awhile and it kinda hit a nerve, sorry

Preservation bothers me as well, I'd hate to see any piece of software get lost to time because the data got corrupted, the physical material degraded over time or there simply isn't a working machine to run it on. And while I don't play MMOs I feel kinda depressed because if you didn't play that game in it's prime time you may very well never be able to experience that game the way it was meant to be played ever again and see how players used to interact with each other than videos. It's also the reason I don't condone DLC of any sort, once servers are shut down and codes expire that data may be gone forever. I vaguely remember this being a problem with the original Ninja Gaiden release on Xbox and it's Hurricane packs but I don't know if that's been preserved yet or not

[Borman]

You're more than welcome to ask questions, plenty of us are willing to answer. The issue with elitism I totally see, but at the same time, people come here and think they are suddenly going to be able to buy Resident Evil betas, for example. Most of us started on the bottom in some weird way, buying crappy things that are posted on the public forum, things that may work, may not, and may not be all that special. But slowly, you build a network of friends that can (hopefully) be trusted, and that is where the cool things start to happen.

There is a lot of trust that new members often disregard (not saying you, but generally). I've been here since 2005, when I was in High School. Since then, Ive moved onto where I am now, as a graduate student, and met a lot of cool people along the way. I have people that trust me with things that can't be shared, and others who trust that Ill get information out to the public.

It won't happen overnight, but stick around for a bit, buy some things that you may not be all that interested in, talk about things, listen, and you'd be surprised. Play the slow game :)

And a word of advice : Avoid the 360 people. They are crazy, and have their own little clubs. Love you guys!

[Gmegbln]

Thanks for the kind words Borman. I've purchased some betas off of ianoid last week (great guy by the way) and I've been anxiously waiting for them to arrive so I can explore their contents and differences. Hopefully down the line I'll be able to come across early alphas and unreleased games because those fascinate me to no end, like seeing a painting half done. Gives me a programmer woody haha.

Saw your channel and the videos you've been making, really cool stuff. It's a shame you can't share cool things like that anymore without the masses screaming "TORRENT PLZ", I can't imagine how many messages you must be getting about BF3

[Borman]

Too many. I don't bother to respond for most. If someone sends me a thoughtful request, then I will respond. But people wanting a handout, absolutely not.

My words to the people just starting : Not everything is a winner, and not everything sucks. Ive bought plenty of disks that were basically the final version. Ive also bought plenty of games for next to nothing that were simply amazing. When people are selling them for 10, 20, 30$ each, they aren't going to do your work for you, and find the differences. Take the chance, sometimes you win big, sometimes you don't.

Take for instance the Kingdom Hearts Re : Chain of Memories that I released. On the surface, it wasn't anything special. It was cheap, tons of people had passed up on it. And yet it ended up being a great find. If you are wondering why some of the games sold aren't that interesting, sometimes its a case of that person already going to the known purchasers, and offering them first dibs on them. And for those 'friends,' if you want to call them that, they will usually go the extra mile getting you the good stuff.

And I will say, for a good portion of the betas in collectors hands, if someone offers the right about of money to recoup the money they put in, they will likely consider dumping them.

[graciano1337]

Borman, you truly are doing the lord's work. Keep it up!

[Borman]

It's always the ones that don't have anything to do with dumping the games that are complaining. Once people have their own money on the line, most change their tune,at least enough to see the other side of the coin. Not that I don't love people releasing things for free, but even drx, who is far better than I ever will be, can't shell out money constantly.

[sneakypeanut]

im with you till about half way through where my eyes went BLAH and i couldnt read any more without it phasing in and out and exploding... (bloody eye condition)

Personally im sick of people asking me a million and 1 questions they could simply google. i dont mind helping but why cant people do anything for them fucking selfs. the other thing that annoys me is that most people seem to have no common sense what so ever.... arrghh does my head in...

[ASSEMbler]

Welcome to my world borman.

[Borman]

It's not the first time it has happened or anything, but I took a break from this sort of thing for that very reason. You can ask all you want, and I can ignore, but insulting me isn't going to get anyone anything.

[Shinebi]

Nice topic, it needs to be said from time to time... as 'people' tend to forget.
You're spot on with the whole sharing dilemma, but it also disgusted me how when for instance, shortly after I finally registered here about a year ago now, I made news of a possible 'release' of Lambo. The 'supplier' got cold feet by then and backed out because of some 'preservator(s)' (read hoarders) ideas here... By this I'm just pointing out that the community had a fair chance of playing not one, but 3 to 4 betas which werent shared before....

Oh well. One doesn't want to loose money because of a release, that I understand.... but some elitists hoarding and even more, blocking a release, is beyond my understanding. :/
It could've been a nice community effort is all I thought when the opportunity came knocking at my door.

Meh... I wish you every penny, Borman :thumbsup:

[Borman]

The likelihood with that is that they aren't hoarding really, but rather they werent suppose to say that they had it in the first place. When I go after a game, I make it clear what I can do with it. Is it for my own personal use? Can I share videos? If I wanted, can I release it? Now I don't know the full story about that one, despite recalling the thread, but I would wager that they made an agreement not to share it. And if you want to get anything in the future, sometimes that is what you have to do.

[geluda]

What has to be remembered is that there's a sharp difference between a hoarder and someone who respects the situation of the person who originally owned the prototype. Sometimes discs come from boxes of junk nobody gives a crap about, but other times they come from companies who are still active and can take action against the people who leaked it. This is why you find a lot of protos watermarked, so they know exactly who the disc belonged to and exactly who is responsible for the leak, accidental or not. If someone is going to sell you a proto and you go around saying you're going to release it, it's no surprise they would pull out of the deal because you make your self out to be an untrustworthy person, someone who can't be relied on to keep sensitive content safe from public view. Because as nice as it is to leak stuff and provide the public with free content, that's not always the wishes of the disc owner and you have to respect that. So while some people might hoard discs, they are not selfish people, they are trustworthy people.