Original Shinobi III and Original Shinobi Legions (aka Digital Shinobi)

[Antifederalist]

1. I've played the original beta Shinobi III, but it's really buggy and is clearly not the final Original Shinobi III. Is there any chance that there will ever be a leak of the finished copy that was reviewed in late 1992? I remember a long time ago, I saw a sales ad with Shinobi III featured and it had the original genesis style box art (i.e., without the red and dark red stripes on the side) as well as a picture of a tiger in the background. Does anyone here have anymore info on the original Shinobi III? I know Sega re-did it because the original didn't get >= 90% ratings, but I don't think the original could've been that bad and it apparently had more of a story to it. I'd love to play it.

How likely is it to ever be leaked? Why hasn't it been leaked already?

2. From the shots I saw a long time ago, Shinobi Legions originally used digital sprites only for the characters while the backgrounds were not real (for example, the tree level had a red back ground rather than a real digitized background as in the 2nd level of the released game) and the HUD was different. In fact, the HUD was so different it almost seemed like it would've had shuriken-centered/magic gameplay rather than predominantly katana-based gameplay. Does anyone here know how far along the original Shinobi Legions got into development? Also, why hasn't an ISO of it been leaked?

I'll be grateful for any answere:)

[Yakumo]

He early version of Saturn Shinobi did have a whole different look with stages and enemies not used in the final game. I've always wanted to play the earlier version of that game.

[Bramsworth]

There's really no way to answer how or why certain prototypes aren't leaked, I'm not sure what kind of answer you're expecting. Stuff gets leaked, stuff doesn't. Can't really explain it any further.

[Antifederalist]

[Here is an update that I just posted on anandtech. It's pasted near-identically from there. I just want this and I think it isn't unreasonable to expect having all of it one day (except I don't really need the Original Super Shinobi II, but simply the American one and how I asked for it particularly the ROM not being lossy re-compressed in any way; I've played through the alpha/beta that was leaked but it was so incomplete and more like an incomplete synthesis of the Original Final] my current self-revised (self-edited) OP at AT Console gaming is as follows...

[Please let me know if you need links or I could add them later] The complete source code for the Revenge of Shinobi II has to be out there even if almost 100% of the packaged but never sold carts got destroyed and even if all but one of the review copies was destroyed. If anyone who sees this knows where I should look, then please... try to let me know and lead me to it. That said, I wanted your thoughts on my following hypothesis (rate the probability of my hypotheses collectively on a scale of [1,9] and use integers only) as to why it was altered to what was actually released around my 6th birthday and was my favorite game when it came out (even though I sucked at the Revenge of Shinobi but then I wasn't even but a wee lad when I played it for the first time at the age of 3 or maybe I was 4 on my older broseph's Genesis; it came into his former household and my current one for the first time when I was three but I thought it was "gay" so i only played it when the big boys were gay and didn't appreciate until I was like late 1991)...

the graphics were too intensive (backgrounds and sprites were way more intense in the shots I've seen... google them and recognize that how small Joe Musashi's sprite is in Shinobi III) to be as fast and fluid on the Genesis as Shinobi III.
the gameplay was more difficult because it was the Revenge of Shinobi II and supposed to be more like the original.
it needed a GA rating and the ultra violent story (think about it... Naoko gets kidnapped again, but with a computer chip put in her head by another incarnation of Neo Zeed... maybe there is only a bad ending in the Original Final of the Revenge of Shinobi II, although the beta/alpha had a good ending) had to be discarded and replaced with practically nothing (Shinobi III had no story)
the water boarding level was "federalist" (like the Shinobi Arcade game if you know what I mean) rather unitary like that of Shinobi III... pay attn to screenshots. Google something like the Original Shinobi III and you'll come to a cool fansite that is a collection of reviews from every mag it was reviewed in plus a video.
The music was better in the alpha beta especially the "hidden" track.
There were 8 rounds in the Original instead of 7 like in the Final Super Shinobi II (Shinobi III).

All in all the Final was far more different than similar... it's kind of like the Articles of Confederation vs. the "Constitution". For those who can't see substance, they're more similar, but they're really more different in my humble opinion.

Shinobi III, if anything, should've got lower reviews even though it was different to the legendary classic Revenge of Shinobi... Shinobi III sounds like it was tame compared to what the Revenge of Shinobi II looks like from the screenshots and what I know about it. Sega of America and Europe probably told the reviewers to mark it down because they wanted something new that would sell better. However, I think that wasn't good for Mr. Hardcore gamer, because if the Revenge of Shinobi was good, then just improve it rather than try to alter or abolish it.

I hope to have the "rights" to full american ROM (and even the Japanese ROM of the Original Super Shinobi II, if at all possible... the Japanese name didn't change) and keep them for my whole life one day. American is my first preference with no lossy re-compression if I could only have one and I'm willing to wait as rushing won't help... I'd also like the cool Gens Rerecording filter ported to Kega Fusion because Kega Fusion's code is way more accurate and I hate having to pick between a near perfect filter or near perfect accuracy... Steve Snake is reading this I hope, he has ties to Sega if I'm not mistaken.

[Now self-edited from my OP at AT forums]

[Yakumo]

What am I reading? Is this guy saying that Super Shinobi 2 (Japanese name) / Shinobi 3 (western name) is a different game than the one originally in development under the name of Revenge of Shinobi 2? If so I don't get it. Revenge of Shinobi was called Super Shinobi in Japan so they did get a game called Revenge or Shinobi 2 in a way. The only reason the game was called Shinobi 3 in the west was because they counted Shadow Dancer as the 2nd Shinobi game.

Anyway, if this unreleased game called Revenge of Shinobi 2 was ever in production, are there any screen shots or is this guy just talking about the Shinobi 3 beta that's been on the net for years?

[MottZilla]

This is funny talking about "lossy compression" and a Sega Genesis ROM. And you seem to know an awful lot about a game you apparently never played. And why must the source code "be out there"? Lots of commercial games have had the source code lost forever. There are a large number of prototype versions of every game. Not all of them get saved. Not all of them get leaked. If someone knew where it is or where to look, why would they tell a complete stranger? Why wouldn't they have already gotten it?

[Antifederalist]

What am I reading? Is this guy saying that Super Shinobi 2 (Japanese name) / Shinobi 3 (western name) is a different game than the one originally in development under the name of Revenge of Shinobi 2? If so I don't get it. Revenge of Shinobi was called Super Shinobi in Japan so they did get a game called Revenge or Shinobi 2 in a way. The only reason the game was called Shinobi 3 in the west was because they counted Shadow Dancer as the 2nd Shinobi game.

Anyway, if this unreleased game called Revenge of Shinobi 2 was ever in production, are there any screen shots or is this guy just talking about the Shinobi 3 beta that's been on the net for years?

There are two betas that were leaked and I only played one of them rather than the one that the Final was based on. As for the names, the answer to your question is kind of... sorry for the lack of transparency on my part. I think they changed the name of the American version because they took the story out... Joe Musashi's girlfriend was kidnapped again (they said Neo Zeed even put a computer chip in her brain, which was kind of scary and violent for a home video game considering we're talking about something from 1992) in the Original Super Shinobi II, but there really isn't a story in the final. Here is a link to a part of the site I was looking at and talking about (hit the site's back button rather than the one in your browser to go to other parts of the site): http://rq87.flyingomelette.com/RQ/SS/S3/O/intro.html

This is funny talking about "lossy compression" and a Sega Genesis ROM. And you seem to know an awful lot about a game you apparently never played. And why must the source code "be out there"? Lots of commercial games have had the source code lost forever. There are a large number of prototype versions of every game. Not all of them get saved. Not all of them get leaked. If someone knew where it is or where to look, why would they tell a complete stranger? Why wouldn't they have already gotten it?

I'm sorry for sounding like an idiot. Those are all good points. It would be a shame if the source code got lost and it's likely that it did since it was from 1992 and they didn't have as advanced back up from back then. As for the number of prototypes, there were several according to what I heard and I played the different one (there is a shinobi fan site that has all the magazine scans of every review of it, but I believe there was a complete Original, possibly ready to ship to stores and it was pretty different from the leaked beta of the Original (which I played through and it wasn't that good because it was so incomplete). It did have better graphics... for example, the caverns look brighter and there are rays of light in them unlike the second level of the first round in the first game. The art and tech design looked a lot better in the Original, at least from the screen shots. I imagine the control of the Original Shinobi III was a little heavier like the first Revenge of Shinobi. I posted this here because I was hoping someone who had a ROM or the source code if it still was 100% intact would be able to upload. People with ties to Sega back in the day are more likely to see this and know that someone is really interested and willing to pay a decent amount of money for it to be uploaded or put together if they only have the source code... although it would might have to be in multiple installments all things considered. If the game was ready to ship, then I would guess they couldn't have destroyed every single copy. I imagine at least one review copy still exists if there were like 3 of them... the ROM chips could be a little worn and torn I guess, but that could be fixed with some effort. Then again, it could've been thrown away or exposed to extreme temps for extended amounts of time... or something else I guess. Is there anyway to contact people who may have reviewed it or worked on it and ask them if they knew what happened to the review or even consumer copies if the latter existed/exists too?

As for worrying about lossy compression, you're right... it would not likely have had any components lossily re-compressed because it was only 1MB, which did make it sound kind of silly for me to mention I wanted it lossless, I guess.

[MottZilla]

Lossy compression doesn't work for a computer program. It works for images and audio because you can lose detail and still see or hear it. Computer program instructions and data must be completely intact.

If such a prototype exists, someone out there might have it. It might eventually get released someday. It would be great if it does get out there. Good luck finding out more about this.

[Antifederalist]

Lossy compression doesn't work for a computer program. It works for images and audio because you can lose detail and still see or hear it. Computer program instructions and data must be completely intact.

If such a prototype exists, someone out there might have it. It might eventually get released someday. It would be great if it does get out there. Good luck finding out more about this.

Thanks and I hope I one day own as close to the original ROM as possible:) If there were three copies that were produced for sale and three review copies then at least one should be in mint condition and I think it will be released some day although I'd like to be told where to go and to trace the steps from there. However, the fact that gamepro and the UK genesis mags used pseudonyms (I doubt that even Game Players showed the photos of the actual reviewers... I don't know what they did exactly) and aren't even around doesn't help out as well as the fact that about half of the people who worked on it are probably at least no longer at Sega. I understand what you said about compression BTW:).

Anyway, has anyone looked at the screenshots at the site that I posted the link to? If so, doesn't it actually look at least as intense than the Final? I think so. I think the gameplay was a blend of Shadow Dancer (the water level in the shots looked for sure like the player could go back and forth between the background and the nearest plane, so that may have been deemed too intense for the Genesis with all of the new stuff) plus Revenge of Shinobi I (in that the play control was heavier than what became known as Shinobi III and the difficulty was probably more like the Revenge of Shinobi I). The story sounded like an even more violent continuation of the first Revenge of Shinobi which makes me think it was called the Revenge of Shinobi II in the US and why the Japanese box art only half (at most) matched the Final. Perhaps the most glaring omission from the Final of the Super Shinobi II is that it didn't have a damn story (Joe Musashi has a girlfriend in the Revenge of Shinobi I and the unreleased Revenge of Shinobi II but then she is absent from the Final of the Super Shinobi II). Anyway, this is an example of why the original is always the best... at least for the hardcore gamer.