NOT retro, but what to look for in an xbox 360 E74 fix??

[stevenjcampbell]

i am not "new" but was the user lvsteven. did you know the link to reset the password is broken? it just links back to the main page in a loop...


--

My Xbox died. It is an older 20gb model and today playing fallout new Vegas I hit a savepoint and the screen glitched.. Restarting it I got the E74 error.

I heated it up a bit with a towel, cooled restarted and it worked. I did not let it get to the two lights meaning overheat but seeing as it worked I figure I confirmed its a flow/solder video error.

A few places here in South Lake Tahoe fix them.
What should I look for in a fix? What sort of questions do I ask.

There are usually a good and not good way to fix this sort of thing.

I think MS only gives a 90 day warranty and seeing as it's an older model (first model with HDMI) I don't feel like spending a lot for a 90 day fix that will likely break again.

Thx!!

[kaput]

Before doing anything else, have you checked the AV connector and tried with another AV cable?


Do a quick read up on BGA packages, and the following will be much easier to understand; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array

If it's the HANA chip causing the E74, there's probably broken solder joints. The temperature changes causes stress to the solder joints. Combine that with the not so well developed lead free solders from a few years ago, when the ROHS directive (which regulates the usage of heavy metals in industrial electronics manufacturing) went in effect, and breakage is basically just a question of time. Originally, lead was added to solder to make it tougher and less prone to crystallization, and there was really no equal replacement for it when its usage was stopped.

Also, I believe I've read somewhere that E74 can be caused by broken solder joints at the GPU too. If that's the case, the following applies too, the GPU comes in a BGA package aswell.


Basically, there are two good ways fix this problem, reballing and reflowing. In essence, reballing means you loosen the chip completely, remove the old solder, and replace it with new, better solder. This is no easy task, and it requires extremely expensive equipment to do professionally, equipment that no small console repair shop will ever afford.

Reflowing means that you heat everything up above the melting point of the solder, hoping that the solder will refuse when it melts. It's cheap, relatively simple, and will give good results if done properly, but you still haven't done anything about the real problem, the crappy solder. If you do nothing else, it'll probably hold together for a few more years, but eventually the solders will break again. However, one way to offset for this could be to enhance the cooling, so that the temperature difference between running and shut off Xbox, and through that the stress on the solder joints, is lessened.

Reflowing is what those shops will do in best case. Then there's the question of how they're doing it, it might range between everything from simply heating the chip up with a hot air gun, hoping for the best, to using real equipment intended for this specific purpose.



So, to answer your question; if I was in your shoes, I'd first read up some on professional reflowing, and once at the shop I'd pretend that I'm just curious, and ask them to describe the process and perhaps show you the equipment they use, just to get a general impression of their choice of tools, what methods they use, and their general workmanship. It's hard to point out any specific questions to ask or anything special to look for really,

Personally I don't believe in that towel trick and its equals at all, there's no way it'll get the temperature above 218 degrees celsius, which is the approximate melting point of lead free solder. Perhaps the overheating can warp the motherboard and thus make electrical contact temporarily, but nothing more. In a while you'll be back at square one again.

Also forget all methods that involves pressing the chip harder against the motherboard and thus forcing together the broken joints. At best, it'll be a temporary fix, but soon the movements caused by the thermal expansion will have worn down the broken joints, in worst case to the point where reballing is the only option. Also, using excessive force on a chip might crack it, if that happens, the only fix is replacement of the chip.

Other than that, if you want a better chance of a lasting result of the reflowing, you might want to do something about the console's cooling afterwards.


[edit] Oh, and one more thing - if you can't bring your Xbox back to life again, it might be comforting to know that you can blame the goddamn hippies for its death; if the environmental movement hadn't grown as strong as it is today, there would be no ROHS directive, and accordingly no use of crappy lead free solder where not fit either!

[stevenjcampbell]

Before doing anything else, have you checked the AV connector and tried with another AV cable?

Yep. Unfortunately for me yes. The problem that it is having has to be the HDMI connector or something similar. I have used the composite cables and no luck with that either...

So a reflow is something that can be done. you say could last YEARS.
to me that would more than suffice. Everything dies and eventually i will end up with a slim model, I just dont have an extra $300.00 sitting around for that in the next few months.

I actually know some of the jokers on ebay are basically using an infared thermometer and a heat gun, taking the system apart, putting tinfoil around the logic board and just cooking it.

I tried fixing an old lenovo laptop this way once. I got nowhere, but i know it can be done. Actually i have seen people actually put the same model notebooks logic board IN A LITERAL KITCHEN OVEN.

Hence, why I am not really into letting just anyone hack at it, and especially not send it to some sixteen year old kid who might just wanna make a few extra dollars off of fixing them fast.

So, to answer your question; if I was in your shoes, I'd pretend that I'm just curious, and ask them to describe the process and perhaps show you the equipment they use. Also, if you want a better chance of a lasting result, you might want to do something about the console's cooling afterwards.

Indeed. I recall reading years ago that an industrial designer commented that the console while nice looking is a nightmare for airflow, which contributes to the problems. unfortunately, people also got this problem far more after they updated their dashboards to the New Xbox Experience. I dont know.

Some of the mods on ebay use the artic silver thermal paste and a 12v fan instead of the stock fan which they claim helps keep it fixed longer. Some of them just use clamps to squeeze the heatsink onto the chip more. Not a solution.

Seeing as mine works fine for a few minutes until an actual game is loaded, i imagine it is VIDEO chip related.

Personally I don't believe in that towel trick and its equals at all, there's no way it'll get the temperature above 218 degrees celsius, which is the approximate melting point of lead free solder. Perhaps the overheating can warp the motherboard and thus make electrical contact temporarily, but nothing more. In a while you'll be back at square one again.

No, but oddly enough it did revive it briefly. Strange.

Also forget all methods that involves pressing the chip harder against the motherboard and thus forcing together the broken joints. At best, it'll be a temporary fix, but soon the movements caused by the thermal expansion will have worn down the broken joints, in worst case to the point where reballing is the only option.

I am not so desperate to destroy it like that. i have read that, that seemed nuts. I did the towel to see if it was cable vs hardware...

[edit] Oh, and one more thing - if you can't get your Xbox back to life again, it might be comforting to know that you can blame the goddamn hippies for its death; if the environmental movement hadn't grown as strong as it is today, there would be no ROHS directive, and accordingly no use of crappy lead free solder where it's not fit either!

yeah, tahoe is FULL of them. They are all over, and it is a strange place to live.
They drive cars that spew smog, and they tell me that a plastic bag is terrible for the environment.

Whats worse for the environment? A little lead in solder or an entire xbox in a landfill, leaking all sorts of heavy metals as it decays.

here you go the problem itself:
VIDEO


VIDEO OF IT IN ACTION. CLICK TO GOTO PHOTOBUCKET.COM

[Bad_Ad84]

Why do people insist on changing the text colour?

Its not readable on the dark forum skin (grey on black?!).

[stevenjcampbell]

Why do people insist on changing the text colour?

Its not readable on the dark forum skin (grey on black?!).

am missing something. i did not intentionally change any font colors.
my forum skin is blue/grey

[Bad_Ad84]

[stevenjcampbell]

sorry bro.
this is how the forum has always looked to me:

[Bad_Ad84]

The skin is user changeable. So setting the colour to black or grey will make it unreadable for some people.

Leaving it as default means it will be black for you and white for people using the dark theme as it will use that themes default text colour.

[stevenjcampbell]

The skin is user changeable. So setting the colour to black or grey will make it unreadable for some people.

Leaving it as default means it will be black for you and white for people using the dark theme as it will use that themes default text colour.

Like I prefaced it, I couldn't even change my password. I really love this forum as ppl are mellow and cool and I'm passionate on the topic matter, but the forum software seems to have its shortcomings.

[Bad_Ad84]

Recent upgrade + lack of time from assembler = issues :(

You can edit your post and copy all the offending text, then click "paste as plain text" icon and paste it in. This will remove all the colour and formatting

[Mystical]

Like I prefaced it, I couldn't even change my password. I really love this forum as ppl are mellow and cool and I'm passionate on the topic matter, but the forum software seems to have its shortcomings.

its new so takes some time to iron out the bugs

[kaput]

Yep. Unfortunately for me yes. The problem that it is having has to be the HDMI connector or something similar. I have used the composite cables and no luck with that either...

So a reflow is something that can be done. you say could last YEARS.
to me that would more than suffice. Everything dies and eventually i will end up with a slim model, I just dont have an extra $300.00 sitting around for that in the next few months.

I actually know some of the jokers on ebay are basically using an infared thermometer and a heat gun, taking the system apart, putting tinfoil around the logic board and just cooking it.

I tried fixing an old lenovo laptop this way once. I got nowhere, but i know it can be done. Actually i have seen people actually put the same model notebooks logic board IN A LITERAL KITCHEN OVEN.

Hence, why I am not really into letting just anyone hack at it, and especially not send it to some sixteen year old kid who might just wanna make a few extra dollars off of fixing them fast.

Ah, it seems like you got a pretty good grip of this after all, you shouldn't have any problems at all to figure out at what level those repair shops are :)

Actually I've managed to reflow a few Xboxes using exactly that method involving an IR thermometer and a hot air gun, and I have yet to fail. I did however weld together a protective frame/jig/whatever you want to call it, instead of using tin foil for protection. I'm a marine engineer, so I got access to a pretty well equipped workshop onboard. However, I'd never charge anyone for it, and if I was to pay for a repair myself, I'd really expect them to use a little bit more professional methods. You'd by the way be surprised of how many broken electronic appliances a bunch of friends and a crew of about 30 people can have together :D

Some of the mods on ebay use the artic silver thermal paste and a 12v fan instead of the stock fan which they claim helps keep it fixed longer.

In theory it should have some effect, and it won't make the situation worse at least. I was thinking of a little bit more radical operations than that though :)

yeah, tahoe is FULL of them. They are all over, and it is a strange place to live.

I know the feeling. My whole country is like that :>

Whats worse for the environment? A little lead in solder or an entire xbox in a landfill, leaking all sorts of heavy metals as it decays.

Hahah, that's like the best point ever :D

here you go the problem itself:

VIDEO

VIDEO OF IT IN ACTION. CLICK TO GOTO PHOTOBUCKET.COM

I've never had any problems with a HDMI connection, so I don't know how it looks, but at a glance, I'd say that looks like some internal problem with the graphics circuitry too.

[stevenjcampbell]

okay, i think that i might go with this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270929031682...ht_1588wt_1187

opinions?
his warranty is 4 months apparently and it looks like he uses the best machine.

here is the guys actual site.
seems pretty decent, and its only 500 mi from me. all the better to ship it less distance.

ANOTHER edit.
I just talked with the owner of that company, he said that he recommends reballing vs a reflow and he resolves with old fashioned lead solder.

He also ups the fan voltage from 3-4 volts to 12v to cool it more.
He blamed just like here the fact that Microsoft used lead free solder on the system.

http://gametekpros.com/

[kaput]

okay, i think that i might go with this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270929031682...ht_1588wt_1187

opinions?
his warranty is 4 months apparently and it looks like he uses the best machine.

here is the guys actual site.
seems pretty decent, and its only 500 mi from me. all the better to ship it less distance.

ANOTHER edit.
I just talked with the owner of that company, he said that he recommends reballing vs a reflow and he resolves with old fashioned lead solder.

He also ups the fan voltage from 3-4 volts to 12v to cool it more.
He blamed just like here the fact that Microsoft used lead free solder on the system.


http://gametekpros.com/

Well, reballing is really the best alternative, and if you can get it done at an affordable price, you should. Even though professional reballing demands its equipment, it can be done with pretty simple means, and if the guy got some experience and decent equipment, there's still a high chance that he succeeds. And while you're at it, check if you can get a deal on having the CPU reballed too, if that's not included already. I assume you're gonna have the HANA and the GPU reballed in any case.

"The best machine" would by the way be some automated monstrosity at a price of a few million dollars, so his claim is most likely an exaggeration. I'd rather guess he's got a professional hot air reworking station or something like that. But as long as it gets the job done it really doesn't matter, and the fact that he gives a relatively long warranty time is reassuring :)

Upping the fan voltage is not a bad idea as long as you don't mind a bit more noise from it, as mentioned, it won't make anything worse at least. In any case, I guess he won't leave a warranty if you don't allow him to do the fan voltage mod. That might be more important than the noise level.

[stevenjcampbell]

Well, reballing is really the best alternative, and if you can get it done at an affordable price, you should. Even though professional reballing demands its equipment, it can be done with pretty simple means, and if the guy got some experience and decent equipment, there's still a high chance that he succeeds. And while you're at it, check if you can get a deal on having the CPU reballed too, if that's not included already. I assume you're gonna have the HANA and the GPU reballed in any case.

"The best machine" would by the way be some automated monstrosity at a price of a few million dollars, so his claim is most likely an exaggeration. I'd rather guess he's got a professional hot air reworking station or something like that. But as long as it gets the job done it really doesn't matter, and the fact that he gives a relatively long warranty time is reassuring :)

Upping the fan voltage is not a bad idea as long as you don't mind a bit more noise from it, as mentioned, it won't make anything worse at least. In any case, I guess he won't leave a warranty if you don't allow him to do the fan voltage mod. That might be more important than the noise level.

ty for the reply.
his reballing service has a year warranty as well.
the whole thing is $100, plus my shipping to him.

I should go for it. I just dont have the $ but its certainly better than what MS will do, which is just sell me another console for $100 basically which may or may not break again in time.

His machine is $15,000 so you are correct, not the best.
He claims thats the cost.

Related note, the guy also says that the 306 SLIM is a ticking timebomb due to the lead free solder. That he already has fixed a few, and that putting the CPU/GPU on the same chip was bad... that his leaded fix will last longer than a new slim model.

Interesting claims, right?

[Bad_Ad84]

I am not so sure about the claim about the slim.

The CPU/GPU was moved right to the edge of the motherboard, where the stresses from flexing is MUCH MUCH less.

[kaput]

ty for the reply.
his reballing service has a year warranty as well.
the whole thing is $100, plus my shipping to him.

I should go for it. I just dont have the $ but its certainly better than what MS will do, which is just sell me another console for $100 basically which may or may not break again in time.

His machine is $15,000 so you are correct, not the best.
He claims thats the cost.

Related note, the guy also says that the 306 SLIM is a ticking timebomb due to the lead free solder. That he already has fixed a few, and that putting the CPU/GPU on the same chip was bad... that his leaded fix will last longer than a new slim model.

Interesting claims, right?

The Jasper revision boxes are a lot better in this respect, their failure frequency is within the normal range for this kind of appliances. If you can be guaranteed to receive a Jasper, and it's in the same price range as this reballing service, getting a replacement from MS actually might be an option after all. Also, it might be an idea to check if buying a used Jasper without any peripherals would be cheaper than reballing your box, before you decide what to do.

Bold claims, yes, but there's probably some truth in at least in the last one. Lead free solder and its appliance methods has seen some tremendous development since it became widely used back in 2006 when the ROHS directive was put in effect, and the solder used in Slims is probably way better than what was used on older revisions, but its usage still puts higher demands on the soldering itself, and thus it is more sensitive to different fluctuations in the manufacturing process; simply put, there are less things that can go wrong when using leaded solder, so his claim might not be totally out of reason.

To call the Slim a ticking time bomb is an definitely an exaggeration though. I don't imply that MS has perfected the design with the Slim, but I don't think there are any major problems with it either. There are always... hm.. what do you call them in English? In Swedish they're called "måndagsexemplar", which translates to "monday specimens", referring to that chances are stuff manufactured on a monday after a weekend's partying are of substandard quality. My guess is that your reballing guy has come across a couple of those, or perhaps some poor abused boxes that has been sitting in some unventilated media bench cabinet, running too hot due to that.

Well, sure, you'll get a higher "heat concentration", or whatever to call it, if you integrate both CPU and GPU in a chip of roughly the same size as one of them used to be, but that is offset by advancements in the semiconductor lithography technology, allowing for more energy efficient computing. To put it simply, newer processors use less power than older to do the same work, and consequently dissipates less heat. The Slim's combined GPU and CPU chip only runs marginally hotter than the equivalents in older Xbox revisions.

[APE]

I really doubt it is a 'ticking time bomb' but it is a great way to get someone in to pay for a preventative 'maintenance'.

There are always... hm.. what do you call them in English? In Swedish they're called "måndagsexemplar", which translates to "monday specimens", referring to that chances are stuff manufactured on a monday after a weekend's partying are of substandard quality.

Not sure of the English equivalent but I know what you mean. The first batch of any production line starting up will likely be poorer than those made in the middle. Those at the end may also be of poor quality if the production was known to be stopped at a point and nobody wanted to spend good money on a large batch of parts for something that will be discontinued anyway. Got enough RAM? Check. Got enough CPUs? Check. Enough solder? Nope, buy some cheap stuff and call it a day.

[kaput]

I am not so sure about the claim about the slim.

The CPU/GPU was moved right to the edge of the motherboard, where the stresses from flexing is MUCH MUCH less.

Yeah, good point. That probably further reduces the risk a lot.

Not sure of the English equivalent but I know what you mean. The first batch of any production line starting up will likely be poorer than those made in the middle. Those at the end may also be of poor quality if the production was known to be stopped at a point and nobody wanted to spend good money on a large batch of parts for something that will be discontinued anyway. Got enough RAM? Check. Got enough CPUs? Check. Enough solder? Nope, buy some cheap stuff and call it a day.

Well, a måndagsexemplar isn't necessarily from the first production run, rather the opposite actually. I'd even go as far as to say it's quite specifically those problem specimens from an otherwise good batch, that breaks down or at least don't work as intended, due to some manufacturing issue. It can also be used when the breakdown can't be explained, just shrug and say "it must have been a måndagsexemplar", then you can leave it behind :)

[Cyantist]

For $100 can't you get a Jasper revision 360, or do they have issues also (I heard very good things about that revision).