English Aero Fighters 3 Home Cart

[Druid II]

Given the ridiculous price point, I'm not really surprised that everyone in the NG community tries scamming at least once. For 30000$, I'd give it a shot too.

The game has been opened and the PCBs inside are 100% SNK official boards, with 100% SNK official ROMs, and the whole thing is machine soldered.

Assuming these games are indeed fake, that means that whoever made this game (DavidG) used either blank or used SNK PCBs and original ROM chips and found a machine to machine solder them. After talking with multiple experts about PCBs, nobody has been able to explain to me how this can actually be done using used boards or Roms. No fake Neo Geo game before has ever had machine soldered ROMs on SNK factory boards.

Just like Power Spikes 2... also was factory soldered, using 100% original SNK boards and 100% original chips.
However, Power Spikes 2 uses an entirely different board revision than Aero Fighters 3.
That means whoever made these games would have to have perfected this machine soldering process on 2 different board sets. Again, unprecedented before now.

But nevermind this type of discussion, nobody really wants to talk about this kind of stuff, the drama and finger pointing is much more entertaining...

And no one bothered to compare any ROM markings? I'm unfamiliar with Neogeo stuff but practically all arcade companies mark their roms with unique IDs, and on top of that you still have the datecodes to match up with the period the game came out. If those don't match what the game should be, then its a proven fake.

Though if the USA and PAL (or JP) releases have the same rom data, the entire thing may just be a region modded cart with custom artwork.

[derekb]

^ my understanding is neo geo roms are the same across all regions

[jep]

And no one bothered to compare any ROM markings?

Though if the USA and PAL (or JP) releases have the same rom data, the entire thing may just be a region modded cart with custom artwork.

The PCB is the same between regions, so a JPN Sonic Wings 3 cart could be used for the conversion. The French buyer is preparing a report of the artwork discrepancies.

Although the most damning evidence is the fact that the source's claims are being ripped to shreds. This is what the source posted about himself:

Let me start off by introducing myself; my name is David Garrett, I’m 47 years old, I currently reside in Ontario Canada and I used to work for SNK.

…


…so the group of us moved down to the US. ... After several interviews with different companies I was hired to work for SNK in the research and development department.


A little about my early role at SNK:
Most of us were very new and just out of school. We all had great ideas and we had the freedom to really experiment. After a short time we were divided up based on what fields we were best in. I ended up going with the development team for new microchips and spent most of my time working on the foundation of the SNK banded chips you find in the NEO GEO.

...

I worked on more than one chip during my time at SNK, the most popular one being the NEO ZMC2.

And here is what Nightmare Tony, a known ex-SNK technician, has to say about it:

This entire thread made my brain hurt. I am hoping that Tonk was suckered into this as I do consider him a friend and will defend him. Stupidity and innocence is easier to defend than malice.

...


DavidG, you did not design any chip for SNK, you need help. I highly doubt you've designed any chip, anywhere, period (at the RTL level much less the actual custom or semi-custom LSI). You're such a n00b you don't understand that the very notion of this is absurd. I guess your Neo "studies" a while back weren't that productive since you didn't come to the obvious conclusion that the CT0 and ZMC2, as well as every "custom" in the Neo are actually semi-custom gate arrays physically designed by NEC, Fujitsu etc. The logic is fitted using pre-made cell libraries in CAD. What next, you designed the logic? I could go on and on...


…


Which brings me to the point. The Neo Geo was designed in Japan. At no time have I ever heard of any of the chips for it being designed in the USA. Mr. Fukatsu also designed games which we sold which would be the ancestors of the Neo Geo as the circuit and design were conceptually identical with some changes.

[Lum]

^ my understanding is neo geo roms are the same across all regions

relative to its library size, probably neo geo has the most. other systems were capable though.

[_SD_]

master list = master farse
NGF releases and other NGF retrofits should be listed as NGF exclusives and maybe use an asterisk.
By not having all NGF games included really makes your master list a master farse.
That's childish and just very, very sad for you.

I'm sure I've said this before, but I totally agree with Dion on this matter. No matter what people think of NGF, pretending that their releases don't exist is just rediculous.

The 'Master List' really needs a totally unbiased update to include all of the NGF releases, the NG:DevTeam games and probably even the !Arcade! conversions with the numbered gold stickers.

[ASSEMbler]

THISGONBGUD.gif

[veganx]

THISGONBGUD.gif

LOL! Where's that from?

[cyberguile]

- Although I feel that I'm wasting my time reading this repetitive shit, I can't stop following it

haha, so true :)

[Druid II]

The PCB is the same between regions, so a JPN Sonic Wings 3 cart could be used for the conversion. The French buyer is preparing a report of the artwork discrepancies.

I'm not talking about the PCB. I'm talking about the rom chips themselves, provided that the game actually has unique data.

[Borman]

I'm not talking about the PCB. I'm talking about the rom chips themselves, provided that the game actually has unique data.

The chips themselves would be exactly the same as well. NeoGeo games had all regions onboard, with the bios determining language and some other stuffs.

[G0dLiKe]

Good thing I already have a jpn fullset of AES games, never liked the US or EURO Neo Geo home carts cover art so I went down the jpn road.

Hah, I always had the feeling that something wasnt right with Tonk, now it turns out he is a scammer :P

And I always wanted to say thamks to Dion for all what he did for the AES. Thanks.

[Druid II]

The chips themselves would be exactly the same as well. NeoGeo games had all regions onboard, with the bios determining language and some other stuffs.

So the only difference between JP and USA and PAL releases is strictly the artwork/packaging? All the roms AND the rom pcbs would be the exact same?

[derekb]

yep.

DreamTR actually sold off his US carts and just rebought the games he wanted as Jap releases, came out way on top apparently

[G0dLiKe]

So the only difference between JP and USA and PAL releases is strictly the artwork/packaging? All the roms AND the rom pcbs would be the exact same?

yeah, only artworks differs, the main difference comparing neo geo with other home systems is that the console itself is locked to a region and plays only the content ment for this region. A pal released game plays fully unlocked on a ntscj system- bouncy mai in kof series, white blood vs red blood in samurai spirits...

[derekb]

frankly I'm surprised such a large scale scam hadn't been done already, I'm sure someones been importing and scamming for awhile though somewhere

[mooseblaster]

LOL! Where's that from?

According to KnowYourMeme, a fairly typical rap video: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dis-gon-b-gud

[retro]

OK, I just want to say something to wheelaa, sega_connect, geddon_jt and the other NG.com'ers who want to talk more about Dion, then I'm getting back on topic.

Wheelaa - what's your definition of a Neo Geo fan, which ASSEMbler is apparently lacking? Is it someone who likes Neo Geo games and plays them? Quite a few of us do. Is it someone who owns an AES, MVS, Neo Geo CD, NGP or NGPC? Again, many of us do - even several of those machines. Is it someone who played Neo Geo back in the day? I played Neo Geo arcade machines in the early 90s, and there was a 'hidden' import video game shop in my town that I frequented to play Neo Geo. I remember the controller looking huge on my little lap, lol! Or is it someone who has been a member of neo-geo.com for some time now? I joined in 2001. I couldn't care less when we joined, let's make that clear - just saying! Perhaps you mean the sort of person with the mentality to spend thousands of dollars on a game just because it has an English manual and sleeve, when the Japanese game sells for peanuts? Well, you've lost me there.... because I'm not an idiot!

Mystical really hit the nail on the head with what he said. I join forums to have discussions with like minded individuals, to learn about topics in which I have an interest, to stay up-to-date with what's going on in that scene, to share information and pictures... basically, to be part of a community. Whilst I enjoyed that when I joined NG.com, it quickly became apparent that there were many users there who were, frankly, childish little schoolboys who have never grown up and can only be rude and insulting. You only have to look at the way Legit was treated when he stood up for Dion over there - absolutely disgusting. And the staff don't do anything about it, because half of them do it, too. Their attitude is "this is an adult forum, deal with it". Pathetic. I like it here at ASSEMbler because there is a real sense of community and rarely ever squabbling. Attacking users with such hateful, discriminatory language is not tolerated here - which is as it should be.

So, going back to wheelaa... perhaps you meant the sort of person who joins the angry mob and goes on a witch hunt, be it on your own turf or chasing someone you don't like across the Internet? Well you're right, there aren't many people sad and pathetic enough to do that here.

OK, so by now you know that I was in the Neo Geo "scene" to some extent when the who NGF thing happened. I've said it before - I believed all the NG propaganda against Dion, to the point that I still thought he was a bad person when he made an appearance here and mentioned to Kev and some mods that we should keep an eye out for some backlash, which inevitably did happen. However, unlike many people, I gave Dion a chance to talk, turn over a new leaf if you like. And I was very pleasantly surprised. Dion has a huge ego, that's for sure - but so what? He has only ever presented himself in a professional manner here, despite getting screamed and sworn at. How many of us would have that sort of patience? He explained the whole court case, and shared photos of his collection and former stock. He even thanked us for teaching him things about the video game scene that he didn't know. Whatever he may have done in the past, I have a lot of time for Dion as he is a polite person. Again, some of the angry mob from NG were either members here, or signed up specifically to bash Dion. Pathetic. Dion - I'm sorry for not looking into the whole situation sooner, and making my own mind up. There's always two sides to every story.

On the topic of Dion's carts, yes he was taken to court. Yes, he was given a permanent injunction prohibiting him from selling counterfeit games. However, this injunction specifically mentioned a list of games that he was allowed to modify and sell. As he's said, that makes them authorized, not counterfeit. Now, I appreciate that collectors who are anal enough to pay thousands more for a variant of a game with a different sleeve are going to be fussy about their artwork, and if a seller gives them a laser print, they're going to be disappointed. Here's the thing, though - SNK PLAYMORE AUTHORIZED THEIR PRODUCTS!! It doesn't matter how shoddy the packaging is, it's authorized! You often see products that are authorized but are of poor quality, it happens. Just because they don't meet YOUR standards, doesn't make them unofficial.

My last word on Dion - you've all made your points. We know the facts from the NG point of view, and from Dion's point of view. Now everyone, PLEASE....

LET US MAKE UP OUR OWN MINDS ABOUT DION, CHRIS AND NGF!

There is NO need to bring up the past EVERY DAMN TIME DION POSTS! Good grief, read my signature - it's the truth!

OK, moving on.....

NGF made reproductions of Neo Geo games. SNK Playmore took them to court.
Arcade-Infinity were involved (in selling NGF games?). SNK Playmore took them to court.
Worldwide Video were involved (in selling NGF games?). SNK Playmore took them to court.
DAX Technologies allegedly sold counterfeit games. SNK Playmore took them to court. (They seized labels, so I assume they were making them.)

All four had permanent injunctions served, according to SNK's lawyers.

So, do Playmore know about Tonk et. al's antics? What's going to happen to them? Seeing how they always take counterfeiters AND sellers of counterfeit games to court...

Is the NG community demanding photos of the label, the PCB etc. as they did with Dion? Are they calling Tonk, geddon_jt, DavidG and anyone else involved a liar for not providing proof, as they did with Dion?

Surely these people defending Tonk are being rather naive? NightmareTony hopes that he's just caught up in it, but I don't see how that's possible. He himself confirmed that DavidG was talking rubbish about his involvement with SNK, so why would Tonk be taken in by such outlandish claims? And how did Tonk's "expert" claim the cart was legitimate when it clearly wasn't? Are we to believe that the seller and the expert were in on the scam, and suckered Tonk into it? Well, in that case, why has he deleted all his online accounts, apparently? Oh, except for his NG account, where he logged in two days ago, but hasn't said anything in a week. Yeah, that's an innocent man, isn't it? One who doesn't even bother to defend himself, just goes into hiding. Shawn even said on the 4th that Tonk is not banned yet, but is permitted to post in his defence. He has chosen not to, evidently.

I had to laugh when I saw the poll - 85 votes for these being unofficial releases, 6 votes that he really is a former SNK employee with a secret stash. Amongst those 6 votes - werejag.

Incidentally, offset printing does NOT provide better colour accuracy - digital does. Colour balance in offset printing was a fine art and a nightmare... the end of your run could look totally different from the start of your run! Offset produces a better image usually, though. Oh, and even if they had a printer willing to print a low run offset, it would not have used the same process as SNK did. Modern offset printing is usually done with a CTP workflow, not CTF as SNK would have used. Take a macro photograph (with a proper macro lens i.e. SLR) and you'll see differences in the printing.

[Druid II]

I'd say the issue was already dropped (From this topic at least) by the time you made this post, I had a huge "no one fucking cares" line in there too but edited it out because by the time I posted, the issue was moot.
So no reason to bring it back up.

There is NO need to bring up the past EVERY DAMN TIME DION POSTS! Good grief, read my signature - it's the truth!

Problem is, he brings it up every time he posts too.

[derekb]

^ exactly, every Dion post is proceeded by another history lesson about NGF

[LeGIt]

I don't see the harm in a little bit of back story myself but people attempting to discredit Dion for a deal he had nothing to do with or bringing up his chequered past at every opportunity is somewhat lame.

As for my 2 cents:

1. If the AF3 cart was real, who gives a shit? It is not likely that the ROM would have any content added, removed or otherwise altered - not even for localisation due to the bilingual nature of the platform.
2. If the AF3 cart is fake, again who gives a shit? Only a handful of people failed to apply due diligence and bought them. Greedy people get scammed and this particular scam is dead in the water before anyone else got hurt.

3. I personally struggle to believe Kiselgof is, was or will ever be a scammer, unless proven otherwise.
4. With regards to Geddon_jt I could put my tinfoil hat on and fantasise all manner of fiction with little merit in reality but I see no reason not to take him at his word, on this matter at least. The discrepencies between his and chamane's findings are a matter of opinion.

5. As for TonK, well he is most likely a victim of his own stupidity and in all probability had no intention of deliberately deceiving anyone. As I had pointed out several months ago, he built up his reputation by being a middleman taking the majority of credit for doing a small amount of work, sometimes even unecessary work because it helped him push his self promotion - darned publlicists!

If he didn't have to be the centre of attention at everything new in the N-G scene he could have just commented wow nice find on AF3 just like everybody else and his reputation would be untarnished, but if he didn't get invovled when there was no need to he probably wouldn't have ever had a reputation to protect either so meh. Unfortunately as he took credit for something which has turned sour, he should take the bad with the good, accept the discredit and move on.

Now that he is perceived to be a villain too hopefully he will learn from the experience. If we are lucky, maybe he will finally see the Dion/NGF situation in a much more reasonable light too and the N-G community as a whole can begin to heal its self-inflicted wounds.