Japanese Learners - Language Discussion

[DrDoaK]

I'm nowhere near your guys level, but I'm givinbg it a crack!

I've been slowly starting to learn Japanese for the past few months now. And when I say slowly, I mean SLOWLLLLLYYY!!! Basically I don't know any words yet, but I can read, write and pronounce Hiragana and Katakana, I just need to learn what the words mean now haha! I wasn't sure whether or not this would be the best way to learn at first, I know generally that a language is learned first using phrases and stuff, but I just couldn't remember any of it. Then I tried an App on my Xperia Play called Human Japanese which starts by teaching the vowels and stuff, and surprisingly it started clicking into place so I stuck with it. I practise for around half an hour every night just doing the tests on the phone and stuff and practising writing the characters, once I'm 100% confident with all that I'll move on to learning what the words mean and a bit of kenji :).

[xmog123x]

一年前、JLPTN5を合格した。いろいろを忘れた。グラマーも忘れたでも語の基本がまだ出来 る。

^ im out of practice clearly, but you get my drift ;p

[ave]

I need some quick help guys. I have a short story due on Monday and I'd like to have someone have a look at it to see if I did any fundamental mistakes! It's very simple, shouldn't be to hard to correct and I'd highly appreciate any help :)

I've been writing this for two hours (it's 4:15am now) after a total of 9 hours of studying all kinds of subjects and I'm totally exhausted, but I hope it's not too bad.

Here we go:
The story is about a boy (Kuri-chan) who buys bread for his mom. He is being told that he doesn't have to pay this time and runs home, but the bread shop owner follows him to exploit the situation and gets 500yen instead of 200 from the kids mom as an apology, that's his special ijiwaruna tactic :P


~クリちゃんの大冒険~

１９５１年の東京の新宿に、小さいクリちゃんがいました。クリちゃんはたくさんあぶない新宿の道でさんぽし たがっていますから、よくお母さんに買い物してあげますから。お母さんはしんぱいしますが、手伝ってくれて よかったです。 ある日、クリちゃんが大きい道に行きながら、色々な店をみていました。母がクリちゃんに二百円をあげて、「 駅の前にある店でパンを買ってくれない」と言いました。

クリちゃんはバッグとお金が手でもって、一人でパンの店をさがしています。この時、駅の前に着いたと店が見 つけました。クリちゃんは店に入った時、主人は「いらっしゃいませ！」と言いました。それで、主人がクリち ゃんに気がついて、「あぁ、クリちゃん。お母さんに買い物してあげるんだの！」と言いました。クリちゃんが 「はい！一人でここに行ったよ！パンはいくらですか。母がパンお四個がひしがってるんだけど、ぼくに二百円 だけあげたんだ。」と言いました。 主人は「パンが一個５０円だから、大丈夫です。」と言って、パンをかばんにいれていました。 「どうぞ。パンは今日だけただのだよ。クリちゃん、お母さんによろしくおつたえ下さい」と言った時、クリち ゃんは店を出ました、走っていました。クリちゃんはとてもうれしそうでした。主人は店を出かけて、クリちゃ んをあっかけました。主人が６４歳ですから、早く走られませんでした。もうすぐ疲れましたから、うるさくな りました。でも、クリちゃんは早く走っていますから、ぜんぜん主人を聞けませんでした。 五分から、家に帰った時、母はドアをあけます。

クリちゃんが「ただいま〜！たくさんパンを盗んだよ。主人はとてもやさしかったから、お金を払わなくてもい いだったよ！」と言いました。 「ばか！買い物した時、いつもはらわなければなりますよ。一月に同じのこと三回したよ。どうしたの？」今、 パンの店の主人がクリちゃんの家に着いた「あぁ、きたのさん、しつれいしました。ええと、クリちゃんは二百 円払うのがわすれたみたはずです。」 「はい、知っております。もうしわけありません、はずかしいです。これは五百円でございます、しつれいしま した。クリちゃんは時々ちょっとあたまがわるいんです。」と言いました。 主人は「どうもありがとうございました。しつれいします。」と言って、店へ帰ると思っていました。主人は話 を続けました。「このやろう。。。もう一月に三回パンが５００円を払ってくれたよ。きむらさんの子供はいち ばんすきなおきゃくさんだよ。」

Please refrain from using any grammar that's more advanced than this if you need to correct something. We had plenty of grammar already, including Keigo and Passive/Volitional forms, but no ~sareraru. I think I might have made some mistakes in terms of tenses and speech styles, like when the shujin talks to the kid's mom.

Any help is highly appreciated! I don't consider this cheating cause it's not graded. :P Also all I want is to learn the language, so it doesn't matter for me if you guys correct me or if I get corrected by my teacher! :D

[layzee]

Did you make up that story yourself? I'm not confident enough in my own abilities to make up my own story (or to offer criticism and/or advice on yours) but I'll have a go at translating it and we'll see to what degree you have communicated your message to the readers (or to what degree I have misinterpreted it).

I also want to learn Japanese and welcome criticism on my reading (as opposed to writing). I will be super-literal in the translation so that people can reasonably get where I am coming from. A quick scan of the text indicates that it's all simple and common Kanji (for me), so that's a good start. However, I had to look up「新宿」. My first thoughts were "New Inn" but that's was obviously off quite a bit. I'm not that good at names (people, places, etc...) at the moment.

~クリちゃんの大冒険~

1951年の東京の新宿に、小さいクリちゃんがいました。クリちゃんはたくさんあぶない新宿の道でさんぽし たがっていますから、よくお母さんに買い物してあげますから。お母さんはしんぱいしますが、手伝ってくれて よかったです。 ある日、クリちゃんが大きい道に行きながら、色々な店をみていました。母がクリちゃんに二百円をあげて、「 駅の前にある店でパンを買ってくれない」と言いました。

~Kuri-chan's Great Adventure~

In the year 1951, in Shinjuku, Tokyo, there was (a child called) Little Kuri-chan. Kuri-chan had a habit/showed signs of walking on the many dangerous roads of Shinjuku, and did the shopping for his mother often (1). His mother was worried but was glad that he could help. One day, while Kuri-chan went (was walking?) along a big street, he saw various shops. His mother gave him 200 yen and said "Won't you buy me some bread at the store in front of the station?".

(1) I'm afraid I couldn't figure out this sentence. My best guess of「がっています」is「がる」which is grammar for "showing signs of something". I also didn't understand the second use of「から」.

クリちゃんはバッグとお金が手でもって、一人でパンの店をさがしています。この時、駅の前に着いたと店が見 つけました。クリちゃんは店に入った時、主人は「いらっしゃいませ!」と言いました。それで、主人がクリち ゃんに気がついて、「あぁ、クリちゃん。お母さんに買い物してあげるんだの!」と言いました。クリちゃんが 「はい!一人でここに行ったよ!パンはいくらですか。母がパンお四個がひしがってるんだけど、ぼくに二百円 だけあげたんだ。」と言いました。 主人は「パンが一個50円だから、大丈夫です。」と言って、パンをかばんにいれていました。 「どうぞ。パンは今日だけただのだよ。クリちゃん、お母さんによろしくおつたえ下さい」と言った時、クリち ゃんは店を出ました、走っていました。クリちゃんはとてもうれしそうでした。主人は店を出かけて、クリちゃ んをあっかけました。主人が64歳ですから、早く走られませんでした。もうすぐ疲れましたから、うるさくな りました。でも、クリちゃんは早く走っていますから、ぜんぜん主人を聞けませんでした。 五分から、家に帰った時、母はドアをあけます。

Kuri-chan has a bag and money in his hands, and will search for the bread shop by himself. This time, when he arrived in front of the station, he found the shop. When Kuri-chan entered the shop, the store-person said "Irasshaimase! (2)". At that, the store-person noticed Kuri-chan and said "Ah, Kuri-chan. You're helping your mother with the shopping!". Kuri-chan said "Yes! I went here by myself! (3) How much is the bread? My mother (verbing (4)) 4 loafs of bread but only gave me 200 yen. The store-person said "The bread is 50 yen per loaf so it's alright" and then put the bread in a bag. When he said "Here you go. The bread is free just for today. Please let your mother know." Kuri-chan went out of the shop and ran. Kuri-chan seemed very glad. The store-person left the shop and (verbed (5)) Kuri-chan. The store-person is 64 years old so was not able to run very fast. Soon enough, he got tired and became annoyed. But Kuri-chan was running quickly and did not hear the store-person at all. After 5 minutes, when he returned home, his mother opened the door.

(2) I don't feel like translating it!
(3) Hmm.「行った」sounds a bit strange to me. Perhaps「きた」sounds better/more natural? Japanese is a bit peculiar in it's usage of
(4) I don't know what「ひしがってる」is.
(5) I don't know what「あっかけました」is.

クリちゃんが「ただいま〜!たくさんパンを盗んだよ。主人はとてもやさしかったから、お金を払わなくてもい いだったよ!」と言いました。 「ばか!買い物した時、いつもはらわなければなりますよ。一月に同じのこと三回したよ。どうしたの?」今、 パンの店の主人がクリちゃんの家に着いた「あぁ、きたのさん、しつれいしました。ええと、クリちゃんは二百 円払うのがわすれたみたはずです。」 「はい、知っております。もうしわけありません、はずかしいです。これは五百円でございます、しつれいしま した。クリちゃんは時々ちょっとあたまがわるいんです。」と言いました。 主人は「どうもありがとうございました。しつれいします。」と言って、店へ帰ると思っていました。主人は話 を続けました。「このやろう。。。もう一月に三回パンが500円を払ってくれたよ。きむらさんの子供はいち ばんすきなおきゃくさんだよ。」

Kuri-chan said "I'm home! I stole a lot of bread. The store-person was very kind and even if I didn't pay for it, it was fine!". "Baka! When you go shopping, you must never pay for it (5). You did the same thing three times in one month. Why?". Now, the store-person of the bread shop arrived at Kuri-chan's home. "Ah, Kitano-san, excuse me. Umm, Kuri-chan (? (6)) forgot to pay the 200 yen." "Yes, I know. I'm very sorry. This is very embarrassing. Here is the 500 yen, sorry. Kuri-chan is sometimes a little dumb" was said (by Kuri-chan's mother). "Thank you very much. Sorry." said the store-person and was thinking of returning to the shop. The store-person continued his talk. "This kid... paid 500 yen 3 times for the bread in 1 month already. Kimura-san's child is my favourite customer." (7)

(5) Haha, I'm pretty sure I know what you mean here. If you wanted to say "must pay" then the correct way is「はらわなければなりません」. For reference, if you wanted to say "must not pay" then it's 「はらってはなりません」.
(6) I don't know what「わすれたみたはずです」means, or at least, not in that combination. Can you explain what you intend it to mean?
(7) I probably got the sentence wrong, since I don't understand the meaning.

Well, that was an interesting exercise (for me). I noticed other possible grammar issues (e.g. usage of particles) but I didn't mention them because they were probably little and as said beforehand, I'm not knowledgeable enough to offer too much advice. Having said that, it was interesting to see the tense switching (swapping between past and non-past tenses in a story). I don't know if you did it correctly but as a reader, it was one obstacle for my reading comprehension. If you haven't already read it, A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar discusses this issue in some detail:

Principle of Tense Switching: A part of a past event (often a state rather than an action) can be described using the nonpast tense, if the writer perceives it to be relatively unimportant circumstantial information that has no direct bearing upon the major story line.

I know this is just a simple story but some simple things that can make it more interesting (for the reader) include:

1) Using「彼」to refer to the store-person or the boy. I'm surprised I didn't see any.
2) Using alternative verbs for「言う」. There was definitely a little too much repetition there. For example use「呼ぶ」when the store-person is calling out to the boy and「答える」when somebody replies to a question.
3) Your story also seemed to have some struggle with temporal-sensitive events. For example, you stated that Kuri-chan (paraphrasing) "left the shop when the store-person said the bread was free". I get the sense that you were trying to say "Kuri-chan left the shop the instant or right after the store-person said the bread was free" to give the sense that Kuri-chan exited the shop prematurely (i.e. without paying). There also seemed to be some repetition with「時」which there might be better alternatives for, given the situation/event.

I'd like to know if other readers read and interpreted the story in a similar way that I did.

[ave]

Thanks a lot for your elaborate response!
I rewrote the draft two times since I posted it here, so some of the mistakes you pointed out have already been corrected, but I'd still like to show you what I meant so I'll respond to all of them
I made the story up by myself, yes. We had 4 manga pictures w/out text and were supposed to turn it into a story. I changed the ending a bit in my third draft (which I will post below this post).

Your translation is fairly accurate.

(1) I'm afraid I couldn't figure out this sentence. My best guess of「がっています」is「がる」which is grammar for "showing signs of something". I also didn't understand the second use of「から」.

I changed it to したかったです　- he "wanted to go for walks frequently"

(3) Hmm.「行った」sounds a bit strange to me. Perhaps「きた」sounds better/more natural? Japanese is a bit peculiar in it's usage of
(4) I don't know what「ひしがってる」is.
(5) I don't know what「あっかけました」is.

3: I already changed it to 来た！
4: It's a typo, I meant ほしがって(い)る　(short speech style for いる)
5: Another typo, I meant おっかけました (chased him)

(5) Haha, I'm pretty sure I know what you mean here. If you wanted to say "must pay" then the correct way is「はらわなければなりません」. For reference, if you wanted to say "must not pay" then it's 「はらってはなりません」.
(6) I don't know what「わすれたみたはずです」means, or at least, not in that combination. Can you explain what you intend it to mean?
(7) I probably got the sentence wrong, since I don't understand the meaning.

5: Yeah, I already changed it to 払わなければ行けない
6: I already changed it to わすれたはずです, hoping it makes more sense. Originally I was trying to say "looks like he forgot", or "わすれたみたいです" which probably doesn't make sense gramatically.
7: No, that's right! haha

[ave]

Here's the revised story. I hope it makes more sense now. I changed some verbs, tried to put in some more variety (i.e. concerning the 言うs) and even altered the entire ending to include more Keigo.

クリちゃん

１９５１年の東京の新宿に、小さいクリちゃんがいました。クリちゃんはあぶない新宿の道でたくさんさんぽし たかったですから、よくお母さんに買い物してあげました。お母さんはしんぱいしますが、手伝ってくれてよか ったです。
ある日、クリちゃんが新宿のいちばん大きい道に行きながら、色々なこうこくをみていました。お母さんがクリ ちゃんに二百円をあげて、「駅の前にある店でパンを買ってくれない」と聞きました。クリちゃんはバッグとお 金が手でもって、一人でパンの店をさがしてみました。急に駅の前に着いたと店が見つけました。クリちゃんは 店に入った時、主人は「いらっしゃいませ！」と言いました。それでは、主人がクリちゃんに気がついて、「あ ぁ、クリちゃん。お母さんに買い物してあげるんだの！」と言いました。クリちゃんが「はい！今回一人でここ に来たよ！パンはいくらですか。母はパンを四個がほしがってるんだけど、ぼくに二百円だけあげたんだ。」と 言いました。
主人は「パンが一個５０円だから、大丈夫です。」とこたえて、パンをかばんにいれていました。
「どうぞ。あの、今回だけパンはただだよ。いい子供だから。クリちゃん、お母さんによろしくおつたえ下さい 。」と言ったから、クリちゃんは「すごい！どうもありがとうございました！」と言って、走ながら店を出まし た。クリちゃんはとてもうれしそうでした。今、主人も店を出かけて、クリちゃんにおいかけました。主人が６ ４歳ですから、早く走られませんでした。もうすぐつかれましたから、せきがでていて、うるさかったです。で も、クリちゃんは早く走っていますから、ぜんぜん主人を聞けない、止まれませんでした。

五分から、家に帰った時、母はドアをあけます。クリちゃんが「ただいま～！母、ぼくはパンがたくさんくれた んだ。主人はとてもやさしかっただから、お金を払わなくてもいいだったよ！」と言いました。

「ばか！買い物した時、いつも払わなければいけないんだよ。同じのこと一月に三回したよ。どうしたの？これ は最悪です！」今、パンの店の主人がクリちゃんの家に着いた「あぁ、北野様、しつれいしました。ええと、ク リちゃんは二百円払うのがわすれたはずですよ。」
「はい、知っております。もうしわけありません、すいぶんはずかしいです。ちょっとおまちして下さい。。。 はい、五百円でございます、しつれいしました。クリちゃんは時々ちょっとあたまが悪いんです。」とこたえま した。
「どうもありがとうございました。しつれいします。」と言って、店へ帰ると思っていました。主人は話を続け ました。「北野様、ばかですね。。。もう一月に三回パンが５００円を払ってくれたよ。北野様の子供は絶対い ちばん好きなおきゃくさんだよ。」

[layzee]

Glad to hear that my observations on your story and the Japanese language in general were not completely baseless/ignorant.

I did a quick read of the revised story and it looks pretty reasonable overall to me.

「すいぶんはずかしいです。」

「水分」/ Embarrassing water? Looks like a typo and I think you meant「ずいぶん」e.g. This is very/awfully/dreadfully/etc... embarrassing/shameful.

[ave]

Got a good grade, shit paid off hahah.

To all the learners who are not in close contact with the language (like living in Japan), what did you figure out to be the most effective and efficient way to memorize vocab? I just cram it and it seems to work, but it's always good to learn about better strategies. Flashcards never did the job for me, too much work to make them and I learn it just as fast if I read through the vocab pages every now and then.

Some words I remember in kind of unique ways. Anyone doing it the same way?

Some examples:

てつやする　＝ Tetsuya Mizuguchi made Rez, Rez is (for me) a typical game that has to be played at night
あきらめる　＝ When you touch little Akira, everything goes to shit anyway -> so better give up.
がっき　＝ phonetically, it sounds like a frog jumping around on the strings of a piano
ふうふ　＝ "Fufu" is what Cartman's mom called a vagina in the German dub when she told him about how he was made in the 1st season episode about his father
むし　＝ Mushihimesama, I could never forget this
びんぼう　＝ A "bimbo" is an outdated, very offensive German word for a servant of a darker skin color. Weird that it means "poor" in Japanese...
やちん　＝ like the noise a cash desk (*ya ching*)
つよい　＝ I feel like saying this when I lift something really heavy (*tsssss..yy...ii*)

:P

[cypherpunk]

Some words I remember in kind of unique ways. Anyone doing it the same way?

It seems that what you are doing is essentially a Heisig method, just applied to the reading and meaning of the word. Using your imaginative memory, very nice.

Basically, the stories you create end up being unique to you (due to unique experiences you had), yet you retain them much better then memorization by rote. 　

[ave]

Never heard about the Heisig method, I should probably try it. I don't have too many problems remembering the Kanji, but it's still a bit hard to learn them at first because I do not attend a calligraphy course to learn about the meaning and etymology of the character. This way it's just a plain "THIS means THAT" way of learning instead of learning that the radical for "gras" over the kanji for "enjoy" makes the kanji for "medicine" (gras + tano = kusuri). Also "wind" + a mountain shaped radical becomes storm (arashi)... I remember Kanji instantly and never forget them once it is explained to me what the different radicals mean. Kanji that I have trouble remembering are those that seem random to me, such as Kei in "Keiken" (経) or Chousa (調査). :/ Is there an internet page that explains them in the Heisig method?

[GaijinPunch]

I found kanji much easier to learn when you learn a few words with them.

経済
経理
東経

調査
調整
調和

Learning the kun-yomi when applicable helps, but is generally harder to remember as they show up less often and are in many cases, more obscure.

[Giel]

Learning about radicals was one of the best decisions I made, both in learning Chinese and Japanese. I highly recommend it.

I remember Kanji instantly and never forget them once it is explained to me what the different radicals mean.

Tell us again once you hit 2000+ kanji..

[ave]

I found kanji much easier to learn when you learn a few words with them.

経済
経理
東経

調査
調整
調和

Learning the kun-yomi when applicable helps, but is generally harder to remember as they show up less often and are in many cases, more obscure.

That's true, I just need some more context to learn kanji effectively. While I didn't look up all the words you gave me since I don't know all the kanji used, this posting alone helped me because now I could remember what the "kanji I have trouble memorizing" looks like, hahah! Thus, chousa is saved to my memory.

And yeah, I'll certainly encounter some trouble once I break the 1000 kanji barrier... lol. Right now I can write pretty much exactly 320 kanji and I can read/recognize around 350 I believe. For the first year of uni this isn't too shabby I think... second year will teach me another 700 or so I've heard Lol.

By the way, had my 期末試験 for 1st year Japanese today and I think I did good. They crammed pretty much every piece of grammar and vocab in there that we ever learnt, it was really dense. 18 pages of exercises/translation in 2.5 hrs... そうだのに、試験を書けしまいました。:)

[GaijinPunch]

The downside of learning how to write kanji these days is there is almost zero application in real life. :|

[cypherpunk]

The downside of learning how to write kanji these days is there is almost zero application in real life. :|

Yep, computers made things way too easy 8-(

I do shodo as one of my hobbies, and it constantly amazes me, how few (Japanese/mainland Chinese/Taiwanese) both know how to use a brush and have decent handwriting (even in kaisho style, which is the block letters that everyone learns in school).

[richi902]

i usualy use "anki" to learn "単語". i'am 164 words right now, pretty low, considering i startet to "learn" it around 10 years ago,
with a book called "Langenscheidts Handbuch und Lexikon der japanischen Schrift - kanji und kana 1 - handbuch「漢字とかな」" lol.
the book is really good it has 2284 kanjis(the jouyou and name kanjis) and "nearly" all readings of them, and also the string order, to write them together with some example words for every kanji.

what i often do is when i go online in gran turismo 5, i search for japanese lobbys, join them, and try to understand what the other's are talking about,
when there are some words that i dont understand, i write them on a paper look, and when i'm done playing, i look them up on "www.wadoku.de" and add them to "anki".

my problem is i can only hardly remember the meaning of only-hiragana written words,
i have no problem remember the meaning of kanjis(composita-words), but i still have a problem getting the reading.
in anki i usaly add the word written in hiragana, and below it i write it in kanji, but still when i try to read the kanji alone i often dont know how to read it.

dosesome have some recommandations for where to look for japanese-people that are willing to train japanese via chat programs or something like that in somekind of language exchange, or something like that?

and well, i recently discoverd "www.italki.com", but it seems not too well at firstl...

edit:
i forgot to add i also have "Japanisch im Sauseschritt 1 - コミュニケーションのための日本語　１"
but also "Japanisch mit Manga from Marc Bernabe"

i made only the first lession in "japanisch im Sauseschritt" and a few in "Japanisch mit Manga".
so far i think they are both ok.

[DefectX11]

Hmmm. Learning Japanese looks hard. I've been wanting to learn kanji for a long time now, but with the absence of a course and time, I can't seem to. Jealous of you, Ave.
I'd also suggest going to Japan, maybe for an extended trip. You'll learn the language much much faster if you're forced to use it.
I lived in Peru for 2 years as a young kid- knew fluent spanish, and I still carry that in the back of my mind.

[GaijinPunch]

Yep, computers made things way too easy 8-(

I do shodo as one of my hobbies, and it constantly amazes me, how few (Japanese/mainland Chinese/Taiwanese) both know how to use a brush and have decent handwriting (even in kaisho style, which is the block letters that everyone learns in school).

In their defense, computers have wrecked my English hand-writing as well.

[ave]

Indeed. My English final a few weeks ago was the first time in 3 years (!) that I wrote a longer (~10page) coherent text over a few hours. It reminded me how much I suck at handwriting compared to using a keyboard... man.

I hope to take a calligraphy course later in my student career so I apply the wonderful Kanji writing at least a bit. I really like writing them, but I can see how it will be hard to write them in everyday life once I finished studying the language on a daily basis.

[Fireball haven]

Giel that link is really useful thanks, i have always struggled when books try & explain grammar they always make it confusing. This is the first time the grammar side has made sense, the person who made that site explains it really well.