Japanese Learners - Language Discussion

[ave]

Can someone maybe explain to me the exact difference between kureru and morau?

How I understand it:

Watashi ha haha ni hon wo agemashita.
I gave my mother a book.

Haha ha hon o kuremashita.
My mother gave me a book.

Watashi ha haha ni hon o moraimashita.
I received a book from my mother.

Is that correct?

Sorry for the Romaji shit, I just can't figure out what's wrong with my input in particularly this forum. It works in all other forums but here my characters are transformed to n$%#&@!

[Giel]

What books do you use in university? Seems like something that you should be able to pick up from the book. I remember the explanation in Minna no Nihongo being quite decent actually. What you wrote there isn't entirely correct though.

Take a look here:

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/favors

gives a good overview of how and when to use it imo.

[Importaku]

Giel that link is really useful thanks, i have always struggled when books try & explain grammar they always make it confusing. This is the first time the grammar side has made sense, the person who made that site explains it really well.

[Yakumo]

When i was learning I found mina no nihongo to be very good. There's another which i used called Japanese for busy people, which was also quite good but not as good as Mina no nihongo.

Yakumo

[ave]

We use Genki 2. Genki 1 & 2 are both really good - the grammar explanations are well-made, the topics are interesting (how to go on a date, how to inquire about things, culture like Doraemon, etc), the drawings are quite funny and encourage you to go on and it includes a comprehensive Kanji-section with a total of about 350 Kanji in both Genki 1&2 combined. I've tried to study Japanese with two other books before (Mina no Nihongo & a wellknown German Japanese textbook) and I think Genki is superior to both.

@Giel
Which part of my phrases is not entirely correct?

[GaijinPunch]

Can someone maybe explain to me the exact difference between kureru and morau?

How I understand it:

Watashi ha haha ni hon wo agemashita.
I gave my mother a book.

Haha ha hon o kuremashita.
My mother gave me a book.

Watashi ha haha ni hon o moraimashita.
I received a book from my mother.

Is that correct?

Sorry for the Romaji shit, I just can't figure out what's wrong with my input in particularly this forum. It works in all other forums but here my characters are transformed to n$%#&@!

That's basically right. Took me a while to get. Don't forget to combine w/ te form.

本を読んであげる
本を貸してくれる
本を買ってもらう

My son mistakenly says, "これあげる" all the time when he clearly means "これもらう".

[Yakumo]

It's just like lend and borrow in English. The amount of dumb arses that mistake those two is amazing. Sure, if you're not a native then you have an excuse but for a native .....

[cypherpunk]

I use silly acrostics.

By giving someone a gift, you cheer them up.
Up encodes both the Kanji for 上げる/差し上げる and pronunciation ([ah-p]/あげる）

For もらう I think of receiving Morse code (I, personally, never got amature radio license, so I can't send in Morse. If you do, it obviously doesn't work). In that respect keijyugo (いただく) is simpler to memorize, simply because of いただきます at every meal.

This leaves only くれる and ください, which work when you yourself want to receive something. コーヒーをくれたい。すみません、コーヒーを下さい。

Don't know if its of any help, or confused you further.

[AleffCorrea]

Damn, you are all too hardcore to me on japanese learning, I use Textfugu as my learning tool

[ave]

That's basically right. Took me a while to get. Don't forget to combine w/ te form.

But that applies only if I receive/give an action (a verb before kureru/...) rather than an object, right?

I will ask sensei on Monday maybe, we rarely use morau but we use ageru and kureru a lot. I'm fairly confident using those two, but since morau is part of the give/receive system and we hardly use it, it still seems a bit strange to me.

[Goveynetcom]

Wish i could learn, i'm too dumb though good luck to all very interesting to read ;)

I wouldn't sell yourself short like that, anyone can learn it, you learned English which is a lot more difficult.

I know very basic Japanese. I've just learned random stuff and have lots of books and other sources but have been quite lazy about getting to them. I'm still in High School so I just study it out side of school for fun, though I'm planning to major in it in College.

Right now I can read the majority of hiragana/katakana (so close to knowing all of them), and the basic sorts of Kanji.

I have so much free time, need to stop lazing around and get to studying.

What are some of the more recommended routes of learning?
I do have the Genki Books already.

[cypherpunk]

But that applies only if I receive/give an action (a verb before kureru/...) rather than an object, right?

I will ask sensei on Monday maybe, we rarely use morau but we use ageru and kureru a lot. I'm fairly confident using those two, but since morau is part of the give/receive system and we hardly use it, it still seems a bit strange to me.

Ugh.

It's a little bit more complex then that, because verb in て-form followed by 上げる implies doing someone a favor, and ditto for someone doing you a favor for the くれる。Strongly suggest you read the book and consult a native speaker before using て and give/receive verbs, to minimize offense potential (Genki should have it covered, otherwise a 12$ book by Naoko Chino (this one) has pretty good explanations, plus all the other grammar points. For 12 bucks, an absolute steal).

Also, tiny bit surprised, that you (plural) don't use もらう／いただく more often then くれる、since くれる／くださる applies to the speaker (well, more exactly, member of the in-circle with respect to receiving something from an outsider, but in 99% of cases that would be appropriate if the speaker is the recipient), while もらう　can also be used to talk about other people/outsiders receiving something from other outsiders.

P。S。if you are going to be buying "Japanese Verbs at a Glance", and commonly wonder why, say in a sentence 「まどを右にまがって下さい」を　is used, instead of 「まどに右に...」、　also consider buying the "All about Particles" by the same author.

[cypherpunk]

What are some of the more recommended routes of learning?
I do have the Genki Books already.

Go to Japan? Failing that, get a Japanese girlfriend? :) You think I'm, joking, but the point is constant interaction and use of Japanese language.

On a more serious note, practice, practice, and practice. And anime is not the best way to learn, since if you plan to interact with anyone other then young people in the bars, you probably want to learn tene (aka ます/です form) and at least get the grasp of keigo, both the honorific and self-depreciating forms (I am told that without knowing keigo, shopping in Japan can be a bit of a chore, since every store attendant speaks sonkeigo to you).

If you have a local community college courses, or something else, that you can enroll into for cheap, consider doing so, since regular interaction with speakers even once a week, will go a long way towards you speaking better Japanese.

Oh, and don't get discouraged. Japanese people put pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else. So if they can learn Japanese, with (much) practice so can you.

[GaijinPunch]

But that applies only if I receive/give an action (a verb before kureru/...) rather than an object, right?

Yes, but in my experience that's where you will hear it more. For even more fun, you should master 頂く as it fits in the same shitty group.

I will ask sensei on Monday maybe, we rarely use morau but we use ageru and kureru a lot. I'm fairly confident using those two, but since morau is part of the give/receive system and we hardly use it, it still seems a bit strange to me.

All the more reason you should learn it... it's waiting for you when your course is over... might as well get it out of the way.

[la-li-lu-le-lo]

I think I sound like a Japanese commercial announcer guy when I try to speak Japanese. I guess it's because I've seen a fair number of Japanese commercials and promo videos. I've also seen a lot of anime, and there's very often a character with that kind of an overly dramatic, smooth kind of voice. I guess the US equivalent would be the guy who does the really deep, dramatic-sounding voice in movie trailers.

[Octaedre]

I'm on my first year of learning Japanese. It's not studies entirely devoted to the language (there's also a bit of economics and law plus english) so we're going sloooowly. I've started in september but we've only started learning Kanji about three weeks ago so ... yeah.

I don't know if it's also the case for all of you here but our Japanese teacher is very calm, affable and almost never raises his voice (quite a contrast from most other teachers). We're using みんあの日本語 as well and the book is really quite well made, a lot of exercises to practice on your own. Also the little cartoon drawings are excruciatingly cute which is always a nice bonus.

I haven't practiced talking much up to this point, often my pronounciation is either on the spot but very disjointed or completely off if I try to speed through too much. I guess it comes with time.

[GaijinPunch]

law

Try not to laugh.

[megaman]

ive always wanted to learn japanese. i meant to take an intorductory class when i was at university but i ended up studying german and italian instead. has anyone tried the rosetta stone language software?

[Legion]

"I don't know if it's also the case for all of you here but our Japanese teacher is very calm, affable and almost never raises his voice (quite a contrast from most other teachers"
Yutori sedai - look it up :) Just kidding

ive always wanted to learn japanese. i meant to take an intorductory class when i was at university but i ended up studying german and italian instead. has anyone tried the rosetta stone language software?

I have and don't bother - its like trial and error or problem deduction.

I think I might try the level N4 in July
Does anyone have some advice on good study aides for this?
A good pictogram book for example to memorize the Kanji with on/kun reading?

Otherwise I will download a lot of past papers and go online to do mock tests

[E.J.]

Can anyone vouch for the accuracy of these Mahalo, and Expert Village, videos?

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7B20082F3A7DA3E6

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBAF4E538FE617C58

There are more videos from these channels, but these were the largest playlists I could find.