The unmoderated NEO GEO thread

[wheelaa]

Last video
I really can't comment on what that weirdo is trying to accomplish with his NGF Last odyssey page, nor do I care. If you watch the video all the way through, I highly doubt the photos will be the exact same. That guy is counting on people not watching the video and taking his word for it. I'm not forcing anyone to believe if we have/had game "x" or not. The point is moot because we recently sold our only copy (flash memory) of Last Odyssey. Tell that guy NGF says they don't have Last Odyssey (maybe he'll finally feel better about himself).

Of course you can't comment as you have nothing to say. The proof is there, you are a liar.

Of course you don't care. As soon as you are shown to be a piece of shit, suddenly it doesn't matter.

You sound even more pathetic than those who rally against you.

I have watched the vid all the way through. The scores / piccies match up perfectly.

So what are the chances of '4 random piccies of a proto in action' being exactly the same as sections of a video about said proto? Bearing in mind said proto is a pinball game, which presumably has an in depth scoring system. And 8-9-10 digit scores are the same at four points? Wow. One in a billion, or fake shite.

And conveniently you have now sold it. Just like I sold a BH1.5 and 3.5 yesterday. I'll send you a piccie of a cdr if you like, I have 'proof'.

You are so full of shit it's untrue. A mental imbalance if you like. Or perhaps mere stupidity.

Same old, all through the years.

We've provided proof, blah de blah de fucking blah.

You want to see proof of proto ownership, check numerous threads here. Piccies of the media, piccies / vids of the media in action. Not the lame ambiguous shite you continually refer to. Yet you claim to be here to share knowledge. More like to try and inflate your palace sized ego. Just a shame that the palace is made of dog shit.

Tbh Dakis, you're a cucking funt liar. Part of my love for this place died when you showed up, your shit being so insidious and pervasive.

Now I'll just sit back and await a mod to edit this. Oh noes, he was teh meanz to deh knobchild dakfuck. Wah wah wah :crying:

[retro]

Break time.Got an hour or so.

I love that you'd spend your lunch break arguing on the Internet ;-)

Yes, but if Hershey was selling stuff promoted as "Cadbury's products" BEFORE getting license from Cadbury, would it be right? Of course not.

If Hershey's made chocolate and passed it off as Cadbury's chocolate without a license to do so, Cadbury would have sued. Correct me if I'm wrong, but SNK never sued NGF - Playmore did. When SNK was still going, Dion dealt with them, visited them, bought from them and claimed he was their official US distributor.

Now, being an official US distributor, of course, means you can sell their products in the US. It doesn't mean you can manufacture their products yourself - I agree there. Surely SNK would have checked their catalogue/website/whatever and said "Hey! Stop doing that shit!"?? It seems they didn't, and only Playmore did.

On the point of being a distributor, when you sell something in a particular terrority, you want it to be aimed at that territory. If the cover is written in Japanese, that's not going to look good in the US. In particular, if it says "not for sale outside Japan", then surely you CAN'T sell it with that sleeve? It makes perfect sense for a distributor to be given permission to create new packaging for a product, or at least put their mark on it, should they wish. Dion has the artwork for the games - surely he was given them by SNK with permission to produce new covers?

I refer you to the Gamate:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BDCqpuwRnf...Gamate+box.JPG

http://fuji.drillspirits.net/gamate/img/box_front.jpg

Very similar boxes, but they have local translation and the Italian one has the distributor's logo.

No, i DO NOT. On the day of my acquisition, they DID NOT HAVE them. They got them only later, and such rights are NOT retroactive.

I did NOT say on the day you got it. Again, you're misinterpreting what I say, conveniently to try and reinforce your point. Maybe that's just a language barrier, in which case I tried my best but I give up trying to reason with you.

I'm not dishonest enough

Hmm, don't become a full lawyer, then! :lol:

It fully depends of the seller, and the merchandise. Some REALLY professionnal companies don't even require you send them back at all.

Professional isn't the word you're looking for. A very small company can be extremely professional, but wouldn't be able to afford to replace an item. For a LARGE company, though, it may be a hassle to have to receive the item, unbox it, work out which order it is from and then have to send it back to the manufacturer/distributor. For such companies, it's easier (and maybe cheaper) to write off certain items and just issue another. I would say the word you're looking for is large, not professional. A man selling items on a website from his bedroom who has a decent e-commerce site, a phone number for his customers to call, a polite phone manner and who is willing to accept returns when you're not happy is just as professional as a huge company who can't be bothered to go through all that and will send you another at their cost.

Anyway, I respect you as a collector and am in awe of your collection. I just don't understand why you didn't deal with this 14 years ago - INCLUDING taking legal action, if necessary.

We've all been ripped off by someone in the past. However, most of us just drop it and move on, rather than going on about it like a dog with a bone. There are companies that I think are absolute wankers, and I would say to someone "Oh don't use them, they're shit, they did this to me...". If that person says to me "Well, I'll give them a go" then I'll think OK, your choice and drop it. I won't start shouting at them and telling them they MUSTN'T use that company because I don't like them, which is basically what Tonk was doing.

Whilst you're going on about it, at least you're doing it in the correct part of the forum! ;-) We welcome discussion like this in the correct place. Replying to every single person who says something nice about Dion would be the wrong way of going about it.

Wheelaa - don't be silly, this is the UNMODERATED thread!! ;-)

[Buyatari]

Of course you can't comment as you have nothing to say. The proof is there, you are a liar.

Of course you don't care. As soon as you are shown to be a piece of shit, suddenly it doesn't matter.

You sound even more pathetic than those who rally against you.

I have watched the vid all the way through. The scores / piccies match up perfectly.

So what are the chances of '4 random piccies of a proto in action' being exactly the same as sections of a video about said proto? Bearing in mind said proto is a pinball game, which presumably has an in depth scoring system. And 8-9-10 digit scores are the same at four points? Wow. One in a billion, or fake shite.

And conveniently you have now sold it. Just like I sold a BH1.5 and 3.5 yesterday. I'll send you a piccie of a cdr if you like, I have 'proof'.

You are so full of shit it's untrue. A mental imbalance if you like. Or perhaps mere stupidity.

Same old, all through the years.

We've provided proof, blah de blah de fucking blah.

You want to see proof of proto ownership, check numerous threads here. Piccies of the media, piccies / vids of the media in action. Not the lame ambiguous shite you continually refer to. Yet you claim to be here to share knowledge. More like to try and inflate your palace sized ego. Just a shame that the palace is made of dog shit.

Tbh Dakis, you're a cucking funt liar. Part of my love for this place died when you showed up, your shit being so insidious and pervasive.

Now I'll just sit back and await a mod to edit this. Oh noes, he was teh meanz to deh knobchild dakfuck. Wah wah wah :crying:

I fail to understand the significance of this here.

For argument sake let us say that the pictures are indeed photoshopped. The two questions I have are.

Why would someone bother to do that?

If someone did do this then who cares?

Are you saying he pretended to own an unreleased prototype so he could brag about it?

If this was done at the end of the show perhaps it was an after thought. Being a seller at a show you are usually caught up with sales and forget things like this. Perhaps someone asked to see it and it was left at home. They wanted pictures at the event and they took some pics and photoshopped it later. Perhaps they didn't want to bring it to the show for fear of it being lost. Perhaps the screen shots were not the best ones. Could be many things I dunno but who cares? I've seen magazine advertisements with photoshoped screen covers.

Now if you follow pictures like this up with something like he used fake pictures to sell a prototype that he never owned then you have something.

If person X sent him $20,000 for this prototype and all he got was an empty shell well then you have a smoking gun but without that I fail to see how this has any real meaning.

[Alchy]

Wheelaa's right, guys. Go watch the video at 5:30 and compare to the first image. Everything matches up, the score, GUI elements, level. EDIT: found image two at 4:50. That's enough for me not to call it chance.

It seems strange to me that you wouldn't care that someone is deliberately telling lies, and so blatantly, Buyatari. Mistakes about the past because you forgot something, fine, but this is a situation where they set up a camera shoot in which there's a NeoGeo "playing" an unreleased game, that's clearly just a mockup with the TV running a VHS? And then still not admitting or at least explaining it years later? That's pretty fucking weird.

[wheelaa]

The pictures aren't photoshopped.

The pictures purport to show a Lost Odyssey proto being played.

However, what actually appears to have happened is that a video of Lost Odyssey is being played on the TV, and the setting of a cart, console and players are made up to give the impression an actual proto is being played.

Based on these picces NGF have been claiming for years that they had a Lost Odyssey proto. They have claimed that those actual piccies show a legit Lost Odyessey proto being played! Right there and then.

These pictures hardly show that, rather they show a devious deceptive nature. It would have been simplicity itself to provide proof of a proto, but as with all things NGF, lame ambiguity rules the day. These pictures prove a lie, yet one they have stuck to for years and years.

Are you saying he pretended to own an unreleased prototype so he could brag about it?

I guess so. Mostly though I'm demonstrating that he is a liar. One lie, leads to another and another, and hopefully people here will wise up to NGF.


Tbh if this cunt had just come here, sans ego, sans BS (and yes, I know BS follows him like a fly to shit) and just posted decent Neo stuff for us to enjoy, debate etc, I wouldn't give a toss. That he is all ego, all cheese, has a posting style that irks like a deep bum itch, and tries to palm off his glorified NG history as cast iron truth...essentially peddling BS to many people here I respect, some I consider friends...well I think you know what I feel about him.

[ave]

I had some spare time, so...





Both players are only watching a video, even though the guy on top seems to be pretty busy pretending to look pretty busy. The scene below is also 100% identical to the video. Hell, he even gets a multiball right at the same time as in the video!
Could you explain that, Dion?

HOWEVER, the other two images at the bottom are not grabbed from the video, at least not from the one that's been linked to on the pinball pirates page. The score jumps from approx. 4 million points straight up to 21 million (video cut). The photos show a score of 12 and 18 million points. Maybe NeoGeoProtos cut it? I'm quite sure there must be a longer version that shows entire stage 2 (with both 12 and 18m scores) because the picture quality of the game seems to be the same on the photos taken by NGF, so it's probably the same tape playing.

[wheelaa]

On a historical thread you know where they found all 4 piccies in a longer vid. Hopefully Supergun has the fuller version to upload (and sees this!).

Still, hats off Ave, nailed those 2 for sure.

Dakis...lol.

[LeGIt]

BTW why do people have to be so annoying saying ooh I bet the mods will edit/delete this? It pisses me off as the only posts I personally delete are against the published site rules. I couldn't give a fuck about whatever personal politics you lot think seem to think are at play. I follow the posted rules only so for all I care you can stay paranoid, wear tinfoil hats and assume everyone is out to get you, but you will be living in a fucking fantasy land if you do. You may recall I've actually gotten into trouble for moving/undeleting topics as I am more liberal when it comes to information so it really annoys me when you tarnish me with your bullshit. Guess what? The fucking post is still there, unmolested so yeah... your bullshit comments are unneccassary.

Adolf why did you report _SD_ for moderation when his comment is an unmoderated thread?

Wheelaa your post was not edited - if you hadn't noticed you're in the unmoderated thread. I am posting here as an individual, perhaps as an arsehole but certainly not as a site representative.

Back on topic...

Lets say Dion's Last Oddysey screenshots are bullshit. So what? If he bulllshits someone once on one issue it doesn't mean he bullshits everyone on every issue.

Lets say Dion has a bad rep as a scammer, there is a saying there is no smoke without fire so he could be a scammer, but even that saying isn't always true. For example some people joke I am a homosexual or a paedophile but neither are the case.

Now lets say Dion is a scammer and you did come here to post your personal story which is not the friend of a friend story. Even if Dion scammed everybody else, your personal story does not suggest that you were scammed in the slightest, Adolf. Now if every person who bitched about Dion has an argument as weak as yours then Dion's bad rep may be undeserved.

Your personal story isn't helped by the fact it is a never ending, ever changing story and you have a very loose understanding but a high expectation of the law. I can tell you now if you said this shit in court the Judge will tell you to GTFO and yes I have been to tribunals and courts many times, even high court.

You also failed to answer the majority of my previous questions so I am waiting in anticipation for a satisfactory response on the issues you elected to ignore so everyone can live happily every after thinking merry merry thoughts.

Adolf I want to believe you, I really do but as I keep saying your weak argument and piss poor presentation along with retarded behaviour is doing you no favours hence you haven't presented what would constitute a case, so Dion has no case to answer. Perhaps you may want to rewrite your entire story from scratch using the 1997 laws this time, begin at the beginning... oh and be consistent this time too.

But seriously, a 14 year grudge for a fucking manual is the most retarded thing I have heard of this year.

Regards,

Your friendly neighbourhood Dickhead (LeGIt)

[metallizer]

if I paid 600 bucks for a shoddy Shock Troopers conversion I'd be pissed as well.

he claimed it was all 100% snk japan originals. Not something he did in his garage with a solder station and a laser printer.

[wheelaa]

Wheelaa your post was not edited - if you hadn't noticed you're in the unmoderated thread. I am posting here as an individual, perhaps as an arsehole but certainly not as a site representative.

Lets assume Dion's Last Oddysey screenshots are bullshit. So what? If he bulllshits someone once on one issue it doesn't mean he bullshits everyone on every issue.

Very true. And I don't even have the defence of my comment being in irony, as it wasn't meant that way! Oh well. I've heard you're a cunt though, not an arsehole. ;-)

And true again. But it does show that he has kept up a lie for 10 years, even in this very thread, and should make everyone question his other words as a result.

[LeGIt]

Alas I am a cunt or so I'm told... just trying to branch out a bit on the route to becoming a wanker :P

[Buyatari]

Wheelaa's right, guys. Go watch the video at 5:30 and compare to the first image. Everything matches up, the score, GUI elements, level. EDIT: found image two at 4:50. That's enough for me not to call it chance.

It seems strange to me that you wouldn't care that someone is deliberately telling lies, and so blatantly, Buyatari. Mistakes about the past because you forgot something, fine, but this is a situation where they set up a camera shoot in which there's a NeoGeo "playing" an unreleased game, that's clearly just a mockup with the TV running a VHS? And then still not admitting or at least explaining it years later? That's pretty fucking weird.

Weird enough to have a whole topic how many pages long dedicated to it?

With all the commotion about how "everyone knows this" and "everyone knows that" and how horrible he was I guess I was expecting more than missing instructions that never existed in the first place and photoshop on convention pictures.

I could think of many reasons for a photoshoped picture. What if it was intentional? What if it is running gag and he knew people would find it and he is sitting back and laughing at the attention.

I mean if this is the extent of everything he has done that was so horrible then ok fine. Disect and discuss it. I'm not an expert on photoshop or this game so I can't add much to that discussion.

[Buyatari]

Very true. And I don't even have the defence of my comment being in irony, as it wasn't meant that way! Oh well. I've heard you're a cunt though, not an arsehole. ;-)

And true again. But it does show that he has kept up a lie for 10 years, even in this very thread, and should make everyone question his other words as a result.

With or without this, nothing changes there. I don't think that anyone will take him at his word IF proof is shown to the contrary.

So far the only proof in this thread is proof HE has presented.

If the only proof anyone has of any wrong doing is this video showing a possible photoshop job then this thread really is seriously just a big waste of time.

[wheelaa]

Even by your slimey standards, that's a pathetic reply that, as usual, avoids the issue. You've been caught in a lie, that you are still trying to perpetuate now, here, on this forum. Grow a set, show some respect, or fuck off.

Buyatari, you're missing the point. It's not a photoshop job. For years this chump has claimed that at that event he debuted LO, and that those piccies prove it. Those piccies are fake, a set up to make people think that LO was being played. He's just a liar.

Regardless, I do agree that this thread is a waste of time. Anything related to NGF always is.

[Adol]

Whatever your intention was, I don't get why someone interested in original and high-quality parts would buy a 600$ con, no matter if it was licensed or not at the time. Why didn't you just go for the MVS kit instead?
Why were you convinced NGF was an authorized retailer of SNK games back at the time although he was selling conversions of games not distributed by SNK-USA as well as having court trouble later on? I assume you were already as familiar with the facts as it was possible at the time.

Because i was advertized as such,and back at the time, 17y old, i was enclined to think not everybody i deal with is a liar and a scammer.
Too, let's be clear on 1 point: it was sold by DION DAKIS, not by NGF. NGF DID NOT EVEN EXIST IN 1997, it only appeared in 1999 or so.
You can check their website, any commercial registry,etc.. NGF did NOT exist in 1997, and that's an even more clear reason SNK or SNK-Playmore could not entitles rights to a company which was NOT in existence in 1997.

If Hershey's made chocolate and passed it off as Cadbury's chocolate without a license to do so, Cadbury would have sued. Correct me if I'm wrong, but SNK never sued NGF - Playmore did.

Of course, because SNK was, i think, unaware of their actions...i mean come on, do you think Nintendo or Sega was suing EVERY company that was selling bootlegged/pirates HK Carts? Of course not.

As well, later, Sony sued Lik-Sang, but not Play-Asia or others...they can't sue everyone, they're not aware of EVERY scam or piracy.

When SNK was still going, Dion dealt with them, visited them, bought from them and claimed he was their official US distributor.

Now, being an official US distributor, of course, means you can sell their products in the US. It doesn't mean you can manufacture their products yourself - I agree there. Surely SNK would have checked their catalogue/website/whatever and said "Hey! Stop doing that shit!"?? It seems they didn't, and only Playmore did.

I can only agree with you on the fact that SNK were amateur in many ways..as an example, i spoke with SNK Europe (based in England) sales representative back in 1999/2000, asking how i could get U11 or Kizuna Encounter Euro Carts...and he said to me, directly, that such games don't exist...when i had 3 of each in my hands. He was just getting this job 6 months ago, and was selling NG Carts like he'd be selling potatoes or socks...he didn't give a damn about SNK history or products!
So you could imagine what they'd think about 2 guys making converts in their garage like NGF.

Hmm, don't become a full lawyer, then! :lol:

I guess we disagree on the term lawyer.
You see a lawyer as an "avocat" (barrister in UK?), pleading in courts, when i see a lawyer as a "juriste, un homme de loi", which is definately MORE than just the barrister profession.
Not every "juriste" pleads in court, so not every "juriste" would have to lie :)

Professional isn't the word you're looking for. A very small company can be extremely professional, but wouldn't be able to afford to replace an item. For a LARGE company, though, it may be a hassle to have to receive the item, unbox it, work out which order it is from and then have to send it back to the manufacturer/distributor. For such companies, it's easier (and maybe cheaper) to write off certain items and just issue another. I would say the word you're looking for is large, not professional.

Right, thanks for correcting me in a decent and normal way. I appreciate it.

However, in our case, NGF claimed to be REALLY large, and sell to "Big tYmers" (their words) :) But for proving it, no one.

Anyway, I respect you as a collector and am in awe of your collection. I just don't understand why you didn't deal with this 14 years ago - INCLUDING taking legal action, if necessary.

Because i had, and still have, better things to do with my time.
But i have time, though, to let people know about a scam. I take my time to say "hey, the guy is a scammer, don't learn it the hard way like i and many other guys did".
Sure, he's hyper egocentric, he's avoiding every direct question like a coward, but the most important thing is: he's a CON ARTIST. One of the biggest i've ever met. I'm here to say that, that's all.
And i was saying it quietly, FOUR WEEKS after he showed up on this forum. I didn't jump, i didn't rush.

We've all been ripped off by someone in the past. However, most of us just drop it and move on, rather than going on about it like a dog with a bone. There are companies that I think are absolute wankers, and I would say to someone "Oh don't use them, they're shit, they did this to me...". If that person says to me "Well, I'll give them a go" then I'll think OK, your choice and drop it. I won't start shouting at them and telling them they MUSTN'T use that company because I don't like them, which is basically what Tonk was doing.

Well, we differ on this, then. I'd hate see someone be scammed as and others were. But i understand your point of view, and once again, i REALLY appreciate you're saying it to me nicely and politely, without naming me nazi figures like a retarded child.

BTW why do people have to be so annoying saying ooh I bet the mods will edit/delete this?

Because we've been here for years, and we perfectly know mods edit/delete what they want, protecting scammers or just friends.
It's a known thing, but you have horse blinks, being the horse.

Adolf why did you report _SD_ for moderation when his comment is an unmoderated thread?

Are you talking to me? Again with your nazism apologism? Won't you stop this already and grow up?
If there is a report button, it meant to be used, otherwise you're just admitting you let people insult each other on this forum.
But since you're as rude as _SD_, i guess that makes sense.

Lets say Dion's Last Oddysey screenshots are bullshit. So what? If he bulllshits someone once on one issue it doesn't mean he bullshits everyone on every issue.

It doesn't mean he didn't either.

Now lets say Dion is a scammer and you did come here to post your personal story which is not the friend of a friend story.
Even if Dion scammed everybody else, your personal story does not suggest that you were scammed in the slightest, Adolf.

Yes, it does, but you're too stubborn and one-side-minded to realize that.
If you knew me a little, you'd know i don't give a DAMN about the value of a manual, thousands of other games slipped through my hands within those 14 years, and i won't cry after a manual or an official US release of Shock Troopers that never was one.
I just CONDEMN SCAMS,and since YOU told you didn't see, up to now, someone here with more than 10 posts and 3 days of existence who got scammed, I CAME AND I TOLD IT. It's quite simple to understand.
It's like calling a SOS-suicide line and say "i consider shooting myself"...And what you're doing for a few days now is telling the suicidal guy "mm, i'm not sure you're serious, i think you're lying"..Congrats, the suicidal guy will shot himself thanks to your great attitude.
Seriously,what kind of guy do that? Here, YOU do that.

Now, if you were his butt-buddy or his brother, that would explain a lot of things...but i guess you're not, and that's why it is so sad.
It is really sad as well you have absolutely NO 90s Neo Geo internet video game market culture or knowledge at all, because if you did, you'd KNOW who Dion is, you'd know how many people and money he ripped off....the man is a LEGEND of the thief...not the common thief like you'd think i am (since i DARED saying RARE in my auctin titles, BOO RIP OFF!), that guy is the CON EMPEROR!

yes I have been to tribunals and courts many times, even high court.

What did you do again? Mommy would be proud..

Honestly, I don't give a damn either about your feelings on my story...fortunately other readers have been warned and that's JUST what i wanted. People should wake up and realize how many grands this guy has stolen from NG fan wallets within a few years.

Adolf I want to believe you, I really do

No you don't.And you don't have even the courage to face how hypocritical you are. Common, you're naming me after your nazi hero, for god's sake.

But seriously, a 14 year grudge for a fucking manual is the most retarded
thing I have heard of this year.

No, seriously, to see someone THINKING there actually is a 14 year grudge for a fucking is the most retarded thing i have heard of this year.

So far the only proof in this thread is proof HE has presented.

There are TONS of other proofs and testimonies on www.neo-geo.com forums, you could check there, his lies are told from generations to generations.
But you're too blind to see that. Go check there,you won't find 1 testimony, but more than 100.

[Alchy]

Guys, please. The nazi rhetoric on both sides is pathetic.

[Dion]

We had Last Odyssey playing by itself as a promotion and people posed and took photos next to the screen.





I fail to see what the photos have to do with anything.
We don't have this game. We did at the time, but we don't anymore.
.

[Alchy]

I had some spare time, so...





Both players are only watching a video, even though the guy on top seems to be pretty busy pretending to look pretty busy. The scene below is also 100% identical to the video. Hell, he even gets a multiball right at the same time as in the video!
Could you explain that, Dion?

Read this and explain.

[Juste]

the DEBUT
We debuted Last Odyssey at the CGE and had a running spotlight on the game in action. So what? We didn't let every single person sit and play it for hours. We had that game showing because many people had not even heard of the game, let alone seen it in action.

We also had a promo video running of NeoGeo Pocket games, Hyper NeoGeo 64, Prehistoric Isle 2, Bang Busters, Ganryu, and the NeoGeo collectors tape running showing over 100 games. Basically we had background video playing on our monitor all day long. We also had a 4 slot cabinet on all day with attract modes and set on free play. I fail to see what that has to do with anything?

Some of the photos were used later on our web site to show our participation at the CGE. Most of those photos weren't even taken by us, but by CGE staff and attendees.

I still fail to see the point of all this.
.

The description at the link wheelaa posted said you set up your booth very late, and only when the show was ending or over, did you show the game. Yet, you say you had a running spotlight of it in action, which wasn't seen by this particular person, I think someone very interested in games like this, so he would of noticed a running spotlight, no?

You said you had a background video playing on your monitor all day long, but again it was said you set up your booth very late?

Again, things raised/shown by wheelaa (who I trust/respect a lot) are ignored or avoided by yourself, like so many other things with you.

[Juste]

We had Last Odyssey playing by itself as a promotion and people posed and took photos next to the screen.





I fail to see what the photos have to do with anything.
We don't have this game. We did at the time, but we don't anymore.
.

Can you be more clear on this? I mean, playing by itself in video form or a real game playing by itself?