Very interesting thread. So who first noticed that some inserts didn't have the correct genre color? Was it you or your partner or some other NG fan?Originally Posted by Dion
What was SNK's reaction when you pointed out the errors? After you pointed out the problem, did they continue to make the same mistake months later with new releases of NG?
I always thought the colors on the AES carts were more or less random to be honest. Many of the original games didn't have colors and the only colors that seemed to follow a pattern were for sports games (green).
Red coloring seemed to be quite common among all the genres though;
horizontal shooters (Last Resort, Andro Dunos), fighters (Art of Fighting, Fatal Fury), platforming (Spin Master) brawlers (Mutation Nation, Robo Army, Eightman) wrestling (3 Count Bout) Vertical shooters (Ghost Pilots, Alpha Mission 2).
Dion: Do you have proof that SNK was starting to color code their releases?
I like things nice and organized too, but perhaps they weren't thinking like us.
Basing this on my collection: (here are my original scans of some USA AES inserts)
http://www.videogameobsession.com/neogeo/neo-scans
Last edited by spoonman; 03-16-2011 at 11:39 PM. Reason: typo(negative)
Again with the proof?? lol
Actually, the proof is in one of the earlier snk magazines that gave the genre descriptions and colors. Do I have to post pictures again? lol
Actually, shooters and sports had plenty of errors.
for example:
Viewpoint: red - wrong
AeroFighters 2: blue - correct
Metal Slug 1: blue - wrong
Metal Slug 2: blue - wrong
Metal Slug 3: red - wrong (later ng.com offered "classic inserts with blue stripe)
Metal Slug 4: red - wrong (later ng.com offered "classic inserts with blue stripe)
Stakes Winner: red - wrong (it's a horse racing game, not a fighting game)
Those are just off the top of my head.
SNK completely screwed up on action and puzzle games as well.
Last edited by Dion; 03-17-2011 at 12:18 AM.
"You have enemies?
Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - - Winston Churchill
I never saw a scan or pic of that magazine article the first time. Posting it would help to clarify and validate.
BTW, couldn't Stakes Winner also be interperated as a title from the sports genre as well.
Corrected for Collector and True Fans
Mitch, you should know that I've never lied about anything pertaining to the neogeo. playmore verified that NGF was authorized for repacking neogeo aes carts with the CORRECTED INSERTS. Isn't that validation enough?? What more does anyone else want?
You of all people know that Chris and myself are huge neo fans and the biggest neo collectors world-wide. We demanded and made the genre correct inserts cause it was the right/correct thing to do. We wanted our neo collection to be perfect, and only with the genre correct inserts could that be possible.
But I'll try to scan in or take a photo of the snk brochure that shows the genres and the colors.
I can see the argument for Stakes Winner being a sports game, but it IS a racing game.... a HORSE RACING game.
I didn't create the game genres for the neogeo, snk-japan did.
snk-japan listed them as follows:
Action
Fighting
Shooting
Sports
Racing
Puzzle
Variety
Those are the genres created and labeled by snk-japan.
.
Last edited by Dion; 03-17-2011 at 02:51 AM.
"You have enemies?
Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - - Winston Churchill
I think you took my last post in the wrong light.
I have never seen that scan (or at least i don't remember seeing it). My words on validation and clarification were more in regards to the member shere who are a bit more green to the Neo and this topic in particular. It would probably help. I just had a long time neo fan from way back when PM me here asking for clarification on the whole topic so I am sure there could be a bit more light shed on the whole topic. It's not hard to see how pwople could have missed it with all the over the top shit that has happened to this thread in the last week.
I already know about the Genre color coding that SNK created and failed at executing accurately. They did so from the start. When you look at the early 90's brochures the color/genre system is all over the place....but it's there.
It never should have stopped with the inserts either. The MVS cart shells never should have been black....or solid for that matter. Making the cases clear genre color matched would have made the most sense for the easiest identification in the field (arcades) and with spotting genuine carts as opposed to bootlegs.
I also hear what you are saying about SW. I don't discount the fact that it is a racing title at heart, just highlighting how the perception could be sports depending on the individual.....plus it would look nice with the green striping, but thats just me.
Not if you want to make money. The home system on its own was a failure. It was propped up by the success of the arcade hardware. Making a sophisticated device like that for retail that works only with a failed system isn't a financially viable proposition.
Genre Correct MVS cases
Funny that you mentioned mvs genre cases!! Now I have gained a ton more respect for you and I KNOW you're a lot more serious than I originally thought.
Genre MVS cases is something I have said snk should have implemented years ago.
Most of my mvs carts have been placed in genre correct cases.
That actually was quite a lot of work on my part.
All my sports titles are in green cases,
puzzle in yellow cases,
shooter in blue,
racing in grey,
and a few of my fighters are in red cases.
"You have enemies?
Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - - Winston Churchill
Once more: ???????????
It's not like SNK was a power house of profit. Lets be honest, the MVS was there only golden move. From a business standpoint everything else was pretty moot. There is a mix of that being the product itself, but more importantly the way they supported it or a lack therof.
It's not unrealistic in the slightest to say that, looking back, a NGP(C) to "AES" home cartridge converter would have been both a cool, usefull device but possibly a profitable one (even if it was minimaly) as well. Of coarse, this would be if it was released shortly after the pocket was introduced.
Besides, it probably would not have been a neccesarily complicated or expensive piece of kit to produce and the primary function of the hardware would not be to profit off of it but to have it move more NGPC cartridges and profit of of that.
They should have done it from day one.
Clear, genre correct color cases with gloss finished holographic labels from the get go. It would have made identifying easier for operators when looking in a cabinet and would have made bootlegs identifyable right off the bat. Would make sense since thats what put an end to the neo hardware, not emulators.
Last edited by Core; 03-17-2011 at 03:54 AM.
I LOVED that you mentioned that mvs cases should have been genre colored. And I never thought about them being in clear genre cases to be able to see the chips/spot a bootleg!!
Great idea!!
You surprised me with that one.
SNK was the bootlegger
SNK-japan was partially responsible for bootlegs. Towards the last few years pf the neogeo mvs, snk made tons of extras and sold them off the books to show a "loss" while still actually making a profit. Most mvs boots had snk boards and used real snk chips. So they weren't really bootlegs per say.
Parallel Importing
SNK-japan parallel imported their own supply. While no one can prove it, most the arcade distributors have said the same things and came to the same conclusion.
This was part of the big controversy we had with the english KoF2000.
That is why the inserts had the NeoGeoFreak/NGF-USA agreement box and we had only ordered a specific amount.
If we had seen or found out more than what we specifically ordered were made and/or sold, we would have sued snk for damages. Our deal was laid out in detail and we had a world-wide exclusivity, and snk-japan was to be the watchdog to prevent parallel importing and unauthorized copies from being made/sold. Our wording was precise and very strict in our contracts. (We did the same with Zupapa, Bang Bead, Irritating Maze, Diggerman, Bust-a-Move, and ZedBlade.)
That is why no other neo aes reseller ever received any rights or stock copies direct from snk/playmore to sell those games I mentioned above. (no classic inserts either). Playmore's press release wording says NeoGeoFreak had the authorization from snk for repackaging and corrected inserts. No other distributor can make a claim like that and prove it as we have done.
If we had more New AES Stock
We still have the rights to release any game on the press release list. Including, but not limited to, games like Ironclad, Breaker's Revenge, Warlocks, Exchanger, Neo Mr.Do, Shock Troopers, Drifitout, Super Dodgeball, and any of the games mentioned on the US District Court papers (we have physical copies of the contracts). We have the aes manual files for all the unreleased games. If we had the stock, I would probably have considered doing mass release of a bunch more titles. Maybe it'll happen. (anything is possible)
(I have some ideas on how to release some games)
Contact Forwarding
Also per NGF agreement with snk-japan, any person calling for information on those titles was referred and given NeoGeoFreak's name and contact number (as they gave to you, mitch, when you phoned snk-japan).
.
Last edited by Dion; 03-17-2011 at 04:39 AM.
"You have enemies?
Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - - Winston Churchill
Up to now this has been a somewhat intriguing read for both the wrong and the right reasons. Moderation seems to be rather heavy handed at times with comments from staff regarding certain topics coming across as though everyone should know all the ins and outs of the Neo scene as a mater of course. I don't know and would like to know. To tell people to Google certain things completely negates the whole point of the thread in the first place, surely. I also find it quite odd to read that certain raised points have been done to death on other forums and shall not be tolerated here, that attitude makes me question the integrity of the thread as a whole because the message it sends out to me at least is that only questions about how great NGF was/were are to be treated as worthy of comment. Anyway...
I keep on seeing references to the English version AES release of KOF 2000 and am really quite intrigued about it but see no thread on this board about it, yet I'm sure I read that Dion was going to give us some in depth commentary on it. If it has been detailed can someone reference me a link and if it's not can Dion give us the full unexpurgated story please? How can what should have been just another common or garden cart be THE rarest official home cart. Was it's lack of release genuine or contrived? Also how is MVS to AES conversion done and who was the bright spark who figured it out?
Dion,
I was just curious where this all started. Not trying to disprove anyone's theories here, but I'm personally curious when and where SNK showed these colors corresponding to the genres.
And yes, I love the idea of color coding, but then again I am OCD so I micro organize everything in my collection! :P
Anyway, I'm sure you must have a pamphlet or catalog in your vast Neo-Geo collection that shows that. If it's not too much trouble to snap a pic or scan it I'd love to check it out. Thanks.
Matthew, Mitch,
Ask and you shall receive:
Leaflets with genre striping
Catalog showing various genres:
action, sports, shooting, puzzle, racing:
Hopefully now more people will understand that snk-japan did indeed plan a classification/genre system for their titles. It was the varous people who ran snk-america (4 different teams) who screwed everything up for the US market.
.
Last edited by Dion; 03-19-2011 at 05:24 PM. Reason: NGF PHOTOS
"You have enemies?
Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - - Winston Churchill
Dion what do you have the rights to reproduce past the carts and graphics?
Can you make controllers?
Can you make neo cabinets?
Did the NGF pull many women on your trade show travels? Promo girls FTW!
What are your thoughts with regards to SNK-Playmore whoring out the Neo Geo back catalog on PlayStation Store etc?
Are there any titles on the PlayStation Store etc you would reccomend? (I only own Metal Slug)
Are there any titles on the PlayStaton Store etc you would like to see?
Are there any titles that PlayStation Store etc should never see, for whatver reason such as killing the exeprience?
Are there any titles on the PlayStation Store etc you think SNK-Playmore have improved upon? For example Metal Slug has online co-op support added for the traveller or billy no mates.
If SNK-Playmore performed a miracle and pulled a Neo Geo 'X' out of their arse, would you set aside your troubles and deal with the company and distribute it?
More to the point given your public problems an critiscm of SNK-Playmore, do you think they would deal with you? :P
Last edited by LeGIt; 03-18-2011 at 12:19 PM. Reason: Fucking typos Grr!
My Feedback Thread
Sega Dreamcast: Evil Twin Cyprien's Chronicles Beta [Bananabreak]
Sega Dreamcast: Ball Breakers v0.800 GD-R Beta [Bananabreak]
Sega Dreamcast: Chicken Run Source Code [Bananabreak]
Sega Dreamcast: Street Fighter III 3rd Strike v1.000 NTSC-U Beta [FLT]
Sega Dreamcast: Carrier v0.100 GD-R Beta [Bananabreak]
Sony PlayStation: Deuce (UNRELEASED)
Just deviating for a second, as Irritating Maze is a trackball game just think of the re-release potential on current gen systems. Wiimote, Six-Axis pad or PlayStation Move methods mean this could be a real cash-cow for Playmore.
Back on topic, I'm still curious about the whole USA KOF 2000 AES debacle.
Kiss and tell
I like that question. lol
Contrary to popular belief, I don't always have all the girls running to me for a kiss. But I do get lucky more times than not. lol
I don't follow playmore or playstation, and I don't know much of the playstation store (ive never checked it out). But more games for everyone is always a good thing.
Nam 1975 and other such action games. Also the shooters like AreoFighters 2, Viewpoint. But compared to todays games, they are only going to be fun and of interest to older players.
I guess I would have to say all titles.
Eventually every game, ever made, for every system will be playable by one master system and available online. So I'm all for it.
NGF and Playmore?
At this point in time my answer would be no.
The neo market is much too small now to invest in. With so many titles becoming available online and on wii, playstation, or xbox, I just couldn't see anyone really continuing support of paying $500 per title for much longer.
Passion wins
I'm sure they would in a heartbeat.
They know NGF was a large distributor and they know how well we did in promoting, selling, and more importantly, making a profit.
Plus they saw our tenacity first hand in court. We used no lawyers and received such a huge settlement that any company would love to work with a person that passionate. NGF's passion for the neogeo is what made us successful at marketing and selling the games. It was something we truly believed in.
"You have enemies?
Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - - Winston Churchill
I know these answers are for Dion, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind if I jump in on a couple that I have thoughts on.
Irritating Maze
Irritating Maze was released for the PlayStation (English title: Irritating Stick) by Jaleco/Saurus in 1998. It makes great use of the Dual Analog stick setup. The USA version can be found very cheap $5-$10.
NEO-GEO Station (On PSN)
I've been following this since SNKP's announcement in October of 2010.
I'm with Dion here. I'd like to see them all show up on the Station, but I do have a couple concerns.
1. The emulation, though SNK claims it to be, is not 100% perfect. Just check League Bowling's title screen. No color rotation! When I asked SNKP about this they claimed it was altered to conform to the Epilepsy warning issues. If this is true why have other classics brought out on collections altered? Maybe the Neo-Geo is too powerful for your health? :P
2. The price is a bit high (When you figure you can get 20 Neo-Geo classics on a disc for under $20, $9.71 a game is pricey)!
3. For some reason SNKP was able to create these in a way to sidestep Sony's requirement for all PSN games to include Trophy support.
The only other games released on PSN that do this are the line of Mini's, but those are done this way to keep compatibility with PSP.
4. Some things I really like about Neo-Geo Station:
Online co-op with full voice support. Being able to play old Neo-Geo games with other die hard Neo fans is a lot of fun! The included manual is also nice to have included, as is the music jukebox (with animated EQ and song titles). The whole experience is very slick and reminds me of the old SNK experience. You can also select between the USA and JPN versions of any game.. No option for EUR though.
5. The video quality is top notch and you can tweak it to just about any size or shape you like. It also upscales to 1080p quite nicely.
6. Unfortunately there have only been 10 games released since it's release in December 2010 and they aren't saying weather they are going to release another 10 pack or not. Perhaps they didn't sell as many as they were hoping to make it worth continuing.
7. What I would like to see..
AES/MVS toggle. Without this you are forced to play the Japanese version to get blood in certain games.
Improved netplay. The amount of lag is unacceptable when you consider you can play a game of MAG with 128 players online at the same time with no lag, but a 2 player co-op game from 1990 with considerable lag is just wrong.
More games!
Oops.. I went on a bit long with this. OK, back to Dion! :)
Thanks Dion. That's really neat and something I've not seen before.
It seems like they were borrowing a bit from Nintendo's NES labeling system style.
Did any retail boxes actually have those logos on them?
Matthew, Mitch,
Ask and you shall receive:
Catalog showing various genres:
action, sports, shooting, puzzle, racing:
Hopefully now more people will understand that snk-japan did indeed plan a classification/genre system for their titles. It was the varous people who ran snk-america (4 different teams) who screwed everything up for the US market.
.
Last edited by LeGIt; 03-19-2011 at 01:11 AM. Reason: i r the merginator!
This paragraph is very interesting, but I may have misunderstood your meaning, so I would ask a few questions to clarify:
You write that you have the legal rights to release any game on the release list, including unreleased titles like Ironclad and Warlocks. Since SNK didn't produce stock of these unreleased games, how would you be able to release these?
Does that mean that you would have the rights from SNK to produce the carts, chips, labels, manuals etc yourself?
For example: If you still had new AES stock of a released game (let's say 100 new KoF carts), would you be allowed by SNK to produce Ironclad chips, manuals, labels etc yourself, and then convert the KoF stock into Ironclad carts and release it?
Yes. As everyone knows, playmore issued a press release stating that snk had given full authorization to NeoGeoFreak/NGF-USA to repackage games and they are 100% official. This also allows for repackaging from mvs to aes (convert/retrofit). During our negotiations with aruze/snk, they allowed us to produce rom/eprom chips as well to fix any glitches, errors, or for released of games we have rights too.
Great question benhat.
.
"You have enemies?
Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - - Winston Churchill
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