NGF history and snk buyout details

[benhat]

Yes. As everyone knows, playmore issued a press release stating that snk had given full authorization to NeoGeoFreak/NGF-USA to repackage games and they are 100% official. This also allows for repackaging from mvs to aes (convert/retrofit). During our negotiations with aruze/snk, they allowed us to produce rom/eprom chips as well to fix any glitches, errors, or for released of games we have rights too.

Great question benhat.
.

With that kind of authorization from SNK you were basically able to produce everything needed to release a game yourselves? That's huge!

How was SNK able to keep track of the games that were sold this way?
They wouldn't be able to control the flow of games if you didn't really need their stock but were able to produce everything yourselves.
Were you obliged to report back to SNK how much you produced/sold, and perhaps send some sort of kickback for every sold game?

How would that work today, if you decided to release a new batch of games? Would you have to report back to Playmore in this instance, since I guess they own the rights to the AES/MVS games now?

[Dion]

With that kind of authorization from SNK you were basically able to produce everything needed to release a game yourselves? That's huge!

How was SNK able to keep track of the games that were sold this way?
They wouldn't be able to control the flow of games if you didn't really need their stock but were able to produce everything yourselves.
Were you obliged to report back to SNK how much you produced/sold, and perhaps send some sort of kickback for every sold game?

How would that work today, if you decided to release a new batch of games? Would you have to report back to Playmore in this instance, since I guess they own the rights to the AES/MVS games now?

Grandfathered
We already paid and received the rights to do anything we want with any games we have, including repackaging up to the release of KoF2002 and Sengoku 3.

Our deals were made with snk-japan and with aruze/snk-japan.
All our rights are grandfathered in to all the games previously posted on playmore's press release via US District Court.

Once again, great questions benhat.

[Buyatari]

So if you had the parts or the ability to have the parts cheaply made you could produce and sell any title on that list today if you so desired?

[Dion]

So if you had the parts or the ability to have the parts cheaply made you could produce and sell any title on that list today if you so desired?

Not any title, just the titles on the court papers and playmore press release, and a few more that playmore forgot to include. Basically every title up to KoF2002/Sengoku 3.

I've answered a question on NGF doing mass releases on the proto thread, but I'll copy it here:


No more Mass Releases
As for a mass release, it's pretty much not in the cards for a full NGF release (with insert, sticker, and full manual). We simply don't have the stock or the time for the conversions (all releases need a cart case, boards, and outer box).

Back when we had over 5000 NOS cartridges, we could/would/did do mass releases of unreleased games. But there is no place to find the quantities needed (in new/like new condition). Plus most of the collectors these days have a hard time spending $500 per cartridge.

To make it worthwhile and worth our time/effort, we would need a sell a minimum of 100 units at $500 each, and would only gross $50,000. Now if you subtract rom costs($50X100=$5,000), sac cart cost($50x100=$5,000), labor ($5,000), printing costs, the net profit on 100 units is only $32,000 (estimate). ($16K for Chris/$16K for Dion)


Build new boards, shells, roms, cases, etc..

It's just too expensive and not worth it unless you're selling thousands and/or have many games to release.

To have a cartridge built would be as follows:
1. Pay for cartridge mold and pressing.
2. Pay for cartridge program boards to be designed, molded, pressed.
3. Pay for rom/eprom chips.
4. Pay to have rom chips programmed.
5. Pay to have rom chips installed.
6. Pay for cartridge case/box mold and pressing.
7. Pay for massive shipping from ?(china)? plus duties/tax.


Now you can see it's just not worth the big money layout to have molds of cartridges, boards, cases made unless you were doing thousands of units or 20-50 releases of 100-200 units per each release.


Easier and less expensive to sac
It is much easier and more cost beneficial to use a sac cart and do the mods. Some of those japanese Samurai Shodowns, Fatal Fury3s, etc.... were made in the 10s of thousands. No one will miss a few here and there.

And as long as we add more games to the neo, it's actually all for the better of the system and better for the fans/collectors. So when we had over 5000 NOS aes cartridges, it was perfect for doing our mass releases of the 6 titles, plus our one off conversion orders.


Hard and costly find
I can't see other people finding and paying for 100+ sac carts to do any type of release. I just can't see anyone investing in the time and effort to actually find 100 carts that will be needed. PLUS, if someone tried to buy 100 FF3 carts at $50+- each, plus $10 shipping per cartridge, that will be over $6000 just for the sac carts, and they probably won't be in new condition.


NGF had the stock for mass releases
Other people didn't have the resources and the stock like we did, which allowed us to do mass releases. NGF did 6 full conversion releases. Zupapa had a production run of 500 units. The other releases ranged from 100 to 400 units. And all that combined didn't even put a dent in our NOS aes inventory.





More titles for everyone!!
When we had over 5000 NEW OLD STOCK, we easily made and offered mass releases. It was a sure way of us moving/selling all that overstock and, at the same time, offering previously unreleased games to neo fans world-wide. It was a win win situation for everyone involved, and a great solution for us to sell our extra stock. Plus we had all the files for inserts and manuals, so it was a great way to provide more titles for everyone.
.

[_SD_]

To have a cartridge built would be as follows:
1. Pay for cartridge mold and pressing.
2. Pay for cartridge program boards to be designed, molded, pressed.
3. Pay for rom/eprom chips.
4. Pay to have rom chips programmed.
5. Pay to have rom chips installed.
6. Pay for cartridge case/box mold and pressing.
7. Pay for massive shipping from ?(china)? plus duties/tax.


Now you can see it's just not worth the big money layout to have molds of cartridges, boards, cases made unless you were doing thousands of units or 20-50 releases of 100-200 units per each release.

All of these problems could be solved by dealing with the NG:Dev.Team guys. They've designed new, secure MVS boards that are updatable via USB. I assume they're also producing the cart shells themselves too. The games come as a full MVS kit or are available with a ShockBox. All of their products are produced to very high standards; they could certainly do these unreleased games the justice they deserve.

So even if any reprogramming is required to get the games working on the new boards, it seems like it would be very simple to do a full MVS release.

[spoonman]

Dion,

Just a thought...
If at some point you decide that you will definitely not be releasing the (as of yet) unreleased prototype games as AES releases, would you consider selling the roms to a group that could raise the money and dump it for the public? This way people who want to make their own AES cart (from a SAC) could do so and many other Neo-Geo enthusiasts would at least be able to experience a piece of Neo history.

I've seen other forum based community game sites do this over the years and everyone involved, from the rom owners to the donators, seem to be very happy with the outcome.

I'd be interested in checking out The Last Odyssey just because there are no other Pinball games on the NG. I think sharing this stuff and preserving for future gamers is always a good thing.

[benhat]

Converting those 5000 AES new old stock to new releases must have left over a sizeable amount of loose chips, manuals, inserts. What happened to these "leftovers" from the SAC games?
Were you able to reuse them somehow, or were they sold off? Do you know where they ended up (perhaps put together again as MVS carts)?

[Dion]

Dion,

Just a thought...
If at some point you decide that you will definitely not be releasing the (as of yet) unreleased prototype games as AES releases, would you consider selling the roms to a group that could raise the money and dump it for the public? This way people who want to make their own AES cart (from a SAC) could do so and many other Neo-Geo enthusiasts would at least be able to experience a piece of Neo history.

I've seen other forum based community game sites do this over the years and everyone involved, from the rom owners to the donators, seem to be very happy with the outcome.

I'd be interested in checking out The Last Odyssey just because there are no other Pinball games on the NG. I think sharing this stuff and preserving for future gamers is always a good thing.

Negotiations underway
We're already negotiating for these games as we speak.
A few people are in the bidding to buy 3 unreleased games:
Crossed Swords 2, Last Odyssey, and Warlocks of the Fates.
The negotiations and process is very interesting and many of the people we're speaking to have plans on the release. But NGF has the rights for the art files (insert, sticker, and full manual).
It's getting close to crunch time.

Still 100% Official
As I said before, I have ideas on how to do a mass release, and it's similar to what you stated.
If everyone sends in their aes cartridge, NGF can repackage the game with the insert, sticker, and full manual.
This will still be 100% official and fully authorized as per agreements with NGF and snk-japan,
and per playmore's settlelemt and press release, and US District Court verdict.
So all neo fans/collectors will be happy to have participated in such an epic coming of ages, and still have a fully official title.

Community Collaboration
NGF can't do it on our own because we have no more stock to fulfill demands for such a mass release of at least 4 games x 100+ units per game (we would need 400+ new aes carts). But we can start with one game at a time and see how/if everyone can work together. If enough people do this (minimum 100 or more) than I'm sure we can do something together as a community collaboration.
.

[wheelaa]

NGDevTeam originally said their cart boards and shells were from sac carts. Maybe they've done something different now, but in the beginning it was sac carts.

Trust me, that's the cheapest and easiest way to do it.
No one wants to put out money for molds on the shells, boards, and cases, unless you're going to be making quite a few releases and selling quite a few units.


I LOVE what NGDevTeam is doing on the neo.
Their games are fantastic!!
If they would have contacted me a few years ago, I probably would have marketed their games for aes release. Our NGF customer database could easily absorb units for them.

I've always said that homebrew is the future of the neogeo!!
.

Their 1st game Last Hope, they made 60 homecarts, sacs...although I believe the boards or (maybe just) the chips are their own. I'm not going to open it to check but I'm sure someone has pictures.

Certainly FS MVS is all their own design, shell, boards etc. Well perhaps not the shockboxes, but no sac carts used whatsoever. I assume it's the same for LHPB, as well as all their future titles. They've also mentioned a newer board design they are mooting, smaller capacity (so titles may have lesser soundtracks, mono not stereo) that would lead to lower pricing.

So it is being done. Although they don't produce large quantities at all, and have said only the ports are really profitable for them.

Edit

Negotiations underway
We're already negotiating for these games as we speak.
A few people are in the bidding to buy 3 unreleased games:
Crossed Swords 2, Last Odyssey, and Warlocks of the Fates.
The negotiations and process is very interesting and many of the people we're speaking to have plans on the release. But NGF has the rights for the art files (insert, sticker, and full manual).
It's getting close to crunch time.

Still 100% Official
As I said before, I have ideas on how to do a mass release, and it's similar to what you stated.
If everyone sends in their aes cartridge, NGF can repackage the game with the insert, sticker, and full manual.
This will still be 100% official and fully authorized as per agreements with NGF and snk-japan,
and per playmore's settlelemt and press release, and US District Court verdict.
So all neo fans/collectors will be happy to have participated in such an epic coming of ages, and still have a fully official title.

Community Collaboration
NGF can't do it on our own because we have no more stock to fulfill demands for such a mass release of at least 4 games x 100+ units per game (we would need 400+ new aes carts). But we can start with one game at a time and see how/if everyone can work together. If enough people do this (minimum 100 or more) than I'm sure we can do something together as a community collaboration.
.

Sweet

100 should be easy. 1 here for starters heh.

What carts would be needed as sacs, the usual candidates? If you were able to use new chips somehow you could easily source lots of NOS commons (Nam, RH etc).

What a great time to be a Neo fan. Bang2Busters and Gunlord in the pipeline too.

[Dion]

One off vs. 100+
It gets interesting if people can sit back and really consider the cost of doing a release on a small or large scale. A lot of factors come into play. Sac carts, labor, rom/eprom chips, creating the insert, manual, sticker, and having everything printed, etc...

It's more complicated that one is lead to believe.

Doing a one off conversion is easy.
Doing 100+ conversions and providing the full art set, finding 100 sac carts, etc... is entirely different story.
.

Sweet

100 should be easy. 1 here for starters heh.

What carts would be needed as sacs, the usual candidates? If you were able to use new chips somehow you could easily source lots of NOS commons (Nam, RH etc).

What a great time to be a Neo fan. Bang2Busters and Gunlord in the pipeline too.

Usual suspects
Depending on the game, the usual sac would be:(considering cheapest title price)
samurai shodown for original case/pre 1996 games
fatal fury 3 for snaplock case/1996 forward games
KoF99 plus a ss/ff3 for certain encrypted games (NGF coined the term BIG GAME series)

So it is being done. Although they don't produce large quantities at all, and have said only the ports are really profitable for them.

Trust me, I know all about profit margins for neogeo releases.
I've done the math and I've done the sales.
To be profitable, you would need to do 100+ or more (ideally 200-500) and the sac carts is the expensive part.

Luckily when NGF did the mass releases, we had 5000 sac carts and we only paid $10 per cart. So the availability was there and our profits were very good. On Zupapa we made a release of 500 units, with a $175k gross /$160k net. ($80k/$80k NGF split).

If anyone else did a release of 100 carts,(paying for sacs, art, labor) the net profit would be less than $35,000. And if you're splitting the profits with a partner, that's around $17k each. In my opinion it's not worth all the time and effort to do anything less than a 100+ unit sale.

[spoonman]

How many of the 5,000 sac carts did you actually sacrifice?

I've heard stories of people sacrificing too many FF3 and SS3 carts which drove up the market prices on those.

I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it seems sacrificing Neo-Geo games is way detrimental from a collector's stand point than sacrificing a common NES game.

Trust me, I know all about profit margins for neogeo releases.
I've done the math and I've done the sales.
To be profitable, you would need to do 100+ or more (ideally 200-500) and the sac carts is the expensive part.

Luckily when NGF did the mass releases, we had 5000 sac carts and we only paid $10 per cart. So the availability was there and our profits were very good. On Zupapa we made a release of 500 units, with a $175k gross /$160k net. ($80k/$80k NGF split).

If anyone else did a release of 100 carts,(paying for sacs, art, labor) the net profit would be less than $35,000. And if you're splitting the profits with a partner, that's around $17k each. In my opinion it's not worth all the time and effort to do anything less than a 100+ unit sale.

[Dion]

How many of the 5,000 sac carts did you actually sacrifice?

No English AES carts were harmed
All in all, with the mass releases, 1600.
And we converted the japanese stock (because there were way more japanese aes cartridges produced)(we've NEVER used an english sac cart)

I've heard stories of people sacrificing too many FF3 and SS3 carts which drove up the market prices on those.

I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it seems sacrificing Neo-Geo games is way detrimental from a collector's stand point than sacrificing a common NES game.

Way more japanese aes carts than collectors
Do you know how many SS, SS2, SS3, FF3 AES carts were made? Over 200,000 of each!!! I know the japanese KoF2000 had 100,000 units made!!

So don't worry about any japanese origin aes cartridge becoming rare and the price going up. There are way more japanese ss1,2,3, ffs, ff3 aes carts made than there currently are aes collectors. (similar to the E.T. cartridge for the atari 2600)
.

[ASSEMbler]

Those are the titles you can still get for 500 yen. 500 yen for a neo cart ! You have to force yourself to not buy them, they are near worthless.

[benhat]

This info on releases is very interesting:
What happened to the "leftovers" from the SAC games from the new old stock?
Were you able to reuse them somehow, or were they sold off? Do you know where they ended up (perhaps the chips were put together again as MVS carts)?

[spoonman]

This info on releases is very interesting:
What happened to the "leftovers" from the SAC games from the new old stock?
Were you able to reuse them somehow, or were they sold off? Do you know where they ended up (perhaps the chips were put together again as MVS carts)?

A friend of mine that has done several conversion carts does this. He takes the sac'd chips from the AES game and puts them back into the MVS carts so nothing is really wasted. I think they refer to this as a "Total Conversion" or at least he does. :P

I would probably just buy one of those MVS to AES converters and leave everything untouched, but I do understand why people would like to have them as AES carts too.

[benhat]

A friend of mine that has done several conversion carts does this. He takes the sac'd chips from the AES game and puts them back into the MVS carts so nothing is really wasted. I think they refer to this as a "Total Conversion" or at least he does. :P

I would probably just buy one of those MVS to AES converters and leave everything untouched, but I do understand why people would like to have them as AES carts too.

That's what you could do for a standard MVS to AES conversion.
But in the case of producing a batch of unreleased games like Ironclad they would have to produce the Ironclad chips, manual, label and insert themselves and then take a standard release AES cart as a SAC cart.
Once the Ironclad chips are installed in the cart they would be left with the chips, manual, label and insert from the SAC'ed game.
They wouldn't have an MVS shell, PCBs etc to convert the SAC "leftovers" to an MVS game, since they didn't start out with a complete MVS game to begin with. They would have to produce MVS shells and PCBs in order to make an MVS game from the leftover parts.
That's why I'm wondering what happened to the leftover chips, artwork etc from the SAC'ed games.

[Neo-Alec]

Negotiations underway
We're already negotiating for these games as we speak.
A few people are in the bidding to buy 3 unreleased games:
Crossed Swords 2, Last Odyssey, and Warlocks of the Fates.
The negotiations and process is very interesting and many of the people we're speaking to have plans on the release. But NGF has the rights for the art files (insert, sticker, and full manual).
It's getting close to crunch time.

Still 100% Official
As I said before, I have ideas on how to do a mass release, and it's similar to what you stated.
If everyone sends in their aes cartridge, NGF can repackage the game with the insert, sticker, and full manual.
This will still be 100% official and fully authorized as per agreements with NGF and snk-japan,
and per playmore's settlelemt and press release, and US District Court verdict.
So all neo fans/collectors will be happy to have participated in such an epic coming of ages, and still have a fully official title.

Community Collaboration
NGF can't do it on our own because we have no more stock to fulfill demands for such a mass release of at least 4 games x 100+ units per game (we would need 400+ new aes carts). But we can start with one game at a time and see how/if everyone can work together. If enough people do this (minimum 100 or more) than I'm sure we can do something together as a community collaboration.
.

This is great to hear. I still think a group buy for a rom dump is much simpler, but I think people want to find a way to monetize the whole thing. This means the hardcore collectors can buy a complete converted AES cart for a high price, but just getting a rom release for the community to study and put on carts as they please can be far off.

If a reliable member were to organize a group buy for public release I'd be more than willing to contribute a healthy sum, as always.

[Dion]

Back to NGF History...


Origin of Species


AES

AES/AES cartridge
Term first coined by Dion Dakis of NeoGeoFreak/NGF-USA in early 1999 to represent cartridges that were meant for consumer use.
This can be verified by looking at my original post on the neogeo dhp mailing list archives 1999 (which was met with great resistance and negativity)


Man oh, man oh!!
When I first coined the term "AES," even my business partner Chris Ray said it would never stick. Originally, he wasn't fond of the term. But now he, along with everyone else is used to it and regularly uses the term for describing neogeo consumer software cartridges.

Up till that point, everyone (myself included), used the term "home carts."

The term "AES," originally was not well supported by some people in the beginning because many were used to calling them "home carts." But as Dion kept pointing out, anything in the home could be called a home cart: (i.e. "MVS carts are home carts if they are in your home.")(atari, colecovision, nes, snes, genesis have "home carts.")

The term "AES" has now become a popular short hand for describing a neogeo consumer cartridge and is now 100% accepted, used, and understood by all.

Big Game
A term coined by Chris Ray of NeoGeoFreak/NGF-USA to describe a converted cartridge that requires 2 sac carts because of B board/character board protection, while the A board/program board does not utilize chip protection.

Later the term applies to special release games, such as (but not limited to),
Irritating Maze, Crossed Swords 2, Warlocks of the Fates, Last Odyssey, and KoF2000.


Dog-Tag
A NeoGeo logo/emblem that was added to print material and to the spine of early English AES carts by SNK-America. The logo’s prominent feature was a rabid dog (pitbull).
(Dion Dakis first coined it as the "Dog Tag logo" in 1997 and the name has stuck)
(this can be verified on the neogeo dhp mailing list archives 1997).


Freaked
Something that has been verified of origin, and/or passing through the hands of NeoGeoFreak/NGF-USA. Including proof of origin, authenticity, validation, and fully transferable lifetime warranty (software/hardware).


Signature Series MVS labels

Exclusive and custom designed MVS labels designed by NeoGeoFreak/NGF-USA. These beautiful labels were made for the serious NeoGeo MVS collector in mind and first done in the year 2001. These labels are professionally printed and DIE-CUT to the exact measurements of old regular MVS labels. The major advantage is that the Signature Series labels include genre striping, Meg count, NGH product number, year released, and company/developer name. These create a true artistic and high class look for any MVS cartridge.

Super Freak
The pinnacle of AES collecting.
Person owning all the aes cartridges, including all conversions and big games. (coined by Dion Dakis circa 2000)

Super Freak (Item) can also be attributed to an item of extreme rarity or difficulty in obtaining. (neogeoworld mat, offset printing plates, unreleased/prototype games, developer boards, pocket station, arts, sketches, complete neogeo freak magazine collection, items of this nature, etc...)



More history still to come.

Coming soon....

**The Rift That Never Happened!!**

.

[Consumed]

Is there any particular reason why everyone elses questions are answered or commented on yet the question I've posed twice about why KOF 2000 went without a mass release has been completely ignored?

Also, maybe this is just me being picky but when you've openly stated that you were buying in new release carts for under $200 wholesale, how can you justify charging in excess of $500+ at retail. I understand how business works, I'm not stupid, but at no point didn't you ever think that you were biting the hand that was feeding you? Just a few posts previously you yourself stated that in todays climate few people could afford $500 for a cart, if anything there's more money around now than ever irrespective of recession. Had home carts retailed at something realistic with an acceptable markup of around 18-20% as was the case with Nintendo or SEGA carts at the time do you not think that SNK could have had a larger market share than they did and not stayed under the radar as just something for the hardcore crowd and possibly still been around today? As you've said time and time again you said you got into the Neo first and foremost as a fan, surely as a fan you'd want the machine to have much greater market penetration than it got, do you not think you were in some small way responsible for keeping it as the preserve of wealthier players only?

[Alchy]

AES/AES cartridge
Term first coined by Dion Dakis of NeoGeoFreak/NGF-USA in early 1999

AES is written on the motherboard.