"Piracy" war room, all stances invited

[Alchy]

It hurts the developers.

Only if it's a current investment. How the hell does me playing SMB on rom rather than on my SNES hurt Nintendo?

Also, if people pirate their CURRENT software, they lose money.

Agreed, I think we're all against current-videogame piracy.

BETA/PROMO software. The rights to this belong to the developer. I don't care if the game was never released. I don't care if the developer no longer exists/merged with another... YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO "RELEASE" IT. NOONE should make money from that game except the developer.

Hell no I don't have the right to charge for it. That's why I was surprised when I saw that PA was going to be sold (I know the reasons behind it and I understand). As for me playing betas, lets say Sonic 2: tell me one company who are adversely economically affected, and I'll concede the point. Sega lose even less than if I was playing the "real thing".

in the end, all the pirates do is whinge about how a game wasn't released, or a company dissolves, or about the price of games. YOU are the ones causing that. NOBODY has the right to download ROMs because they are "dead" systems, or "old" games.

Nothing I do hurts developers. Nothing I download is money out of their pocket. I'm an avid gamer and I buy recent games. But if I want to mess around with an obscure Japanese Nes game from 86 by a company who went bankrupt 15 years ago, I don't see why I shouldn't. Like I said, nobody gets hurt.

If you like it, get the original! There's nothing like playing it AS IT WAS INTENDED.

I do, frequently. I have a large retro collection and I love the 2D generation. Why should that mean I feel guilty about having beta roms of ancient games?

Sure, there's the uber-bad pirate, who makes money selling them. Still, if you download or copy games, don't think you're not a pirate because YOU ARE.

Fine, label me how you like. I know where the law stands and I'm on the wrong side of it. So are most of the people on this forum. I maintain the moral high ground, though, as I'm not taking money from anyone, and I support the hands that feed me my passion.

[Metal_4evr]

Alchy I agree with you completely. According to your example retro, if I downloaded Panzer Dragoon Saga I would be hurting the value. If it wasn't available for download or whatever I STILL would not pay 100 pounds for it. If it was reasonably priced I would buy it regardless of the ability to download it but it isn't.

[Hawanja]

You have a few good points Retro, but I think there's a few more:

As I said, I do not download ROMS of games commercially availible for current systems. Roms for consoles that have been discontinued I don't feel too bad about. Yes, the parent company still holds the rights to the games, thing is the vast majority of them are not commercially availible for any current system (i.e. no versions of 2600 pitfall or NES Blaster Master on the X-Box or PS2.) So how can I buy them ligitimately if they're not availible? Actually, how am I stealing from them if it's not for sale anywhere?

I would argue that a different version of the same game released on two different consoles is in fact two different games. There are differences between the two (example would be NES vs. SMS Double Dragon, or the three versions of Soul Caliber for the X-Box, PS2, or Gamecube.) So I want to play the NES version of Castlevania, not the latest PS2 version. The one I want is 15 years old and I can't find it anywhere, so how do I buy it new so the developer makes money?

The back-up law says you can make copies of stuff you own, but you are not allowed to sell those copies. It doesn't say you can't give them away for free, which is essentially what is happening with all the P2P lawsuits now.

I would be perfectly happy to pay a small fee to download a ROM legally (I'm sure eventually a few game companies will realise the money they could make selling ROMS for emulators.) One day it will happen, then everyone can download happily and legaly. But as it is now it's still a grey area, not really legal or illegal.

The vast majority of games for past systems are not being sold in a current form (ala Namco's greatest hits or something) and so money is not being taken from the developers. So the arguement "It's not hurting anyone" isn't exactly true, but I still don't feel bad about using ROMs and Emulators. Most people aren't interested in "classic" games for retired systems, most of them want the new stuff with all the crazy graphics and such.

As with Beta/Promo software, that's software that was never intended to be released in the first place. So you don't have the right to run off a thousand copies and sell it, but still who says you can't get a copy and play it yourself? It's software that's been abandoned.

The record industry used to say that blank tapes would destroy them (so did software companies about black floppy discs and CD burners.) But the impact of those things on the respective industries has been negligible. It just leads to copy protection, and while the super-pirates will always figure the copy protection out, the majority of users won't bother. I don't know how to "crack" software, and I don't want to know.

All this stuff is being fought over in the courts now, what with the MPAA suing 12 year old girls and such. I'm P2P networking, MP3's, etc. will all be illegal in the near future. This of course will not stop filesharing, just drive it underground (which is already happening to some extent.) One day there will be no ISPs, one day the Internet will be as intergrated into our lives as say the highway system, and then the'll be no one to snitch on you if you download a song or game. I give it less than ten years.

What do you guys think of grey market "clone" systems? I like to collect the stuff becasue sometimes it can be unique (like say the GameAxe portable Famicom with it's own built in screen.) However I admit most of the time it's total junk and you're better off going with the original.

[AntiPasta]

What do you guys think of grey market "clone" systems? I like to collect the stuff becasue sometimes it can be unique (like say the GameAxe portable Famicom with it's own built in screen.) However I admit most of the time it's total junk and you're better off going with the original.

They're illegal as hell, not only do they incorporate illicit copies of games (the actual hardware itself is not illegal I think as I assume they built the chips themselves), often the copyright notices are removed/altered and the system or it's brand labels are often made to look a lot like the original hardware.
For instance, my clone NES used to look a lot like a SNES but also did it have "Newtendo Super Famcom" written on it, and even a fake Nintendo seal of quality! Or worse, I have a Famiclone that looks *a lot* like a Megadrive 2 that blatantly has the Sega logo on it (and on the box too).

That doesnt mean, however, that they're useless - I find 'em pretty cool :)

[Johnny]

Take Brazil for example. The government is battling piracy with every ways possible, but they don't improve the security of our frontier with Paraguay (where more than 95% of all pirated produts enter in Brazil). They only hunt the "final" seller.

Another example of hypocrisy. They say "Dont buy piracy cd's, because it will hurt the artist income". Music Cd's cost almost the same as DVD's here. Way expensive, and the curious thing: The artist of the cd don't receive more than 2% of the sales of each cd. The rest goes to the distributor/recorder and some big part goes for taxes.

Another hypocrisy. Brazilian government condemns piracy, but Dynacom, a brazilian electronics company, sells the Dynavision (Nes Clone) + 94 games , which are not licensed for it to distribute, without any problems.


Anyway, my view on roms is that.
Arcade: I'll play arcade at home if it's not recent. For example if they add Virtua Racing on MAME next release, i'll download the rom and play. The game is 10 years old, and i spent tons of cash on it.
Consoles - only play emulators from 8bit / 16-bit generation

Sorry but i can't feel bad playing Super Mario 1 and Alex Kidd in Miracle World on the pc. Plus i don't think i'm taking other's people money when i play them.

[filler]

There was a poll recently on GameFAQs that asked, "What percentage of your game purchases are used games?". I thought about it a while, and I had to go with the "75-99%" range. I buy new games, but only 1-2 a year. Something that comes out that I really want I get. I do not pirate new games. I think it is lame. If a game is newer, just go buy it. I just really love older games.

As an artist I like to think of things in terms of art. I am a big fan of Japanese "doujinshi" comics, and have been to the Tokyo Comiket a couple of times. If I were a comic book artist, and I found that someone was not only using my copyrighted characters, but using them in sexually explicit ways (note this is just an example), bastardising my scenes, and making MONEY off of it! Well, I suppose I would have every right to not only be upset, but to sue them for copyright infringement (George Lucas v.s. Starballs anyone?).

But the truth is, comic market is HUGE. I seriously cannot describe how huge it is if you have not seen it. It's like 10,000 tables. It's oerwhelming. I'm always amazed when I am there, it is a really cool indescribable thing. The only way I can really think of to justify it's exsistance is that it is the most amazing display of fandom I have ever seen. And I think that for the artists whose works are being emulated, they see it as just that, and expression of how much the fans LOVE their comics.

I think that that is the real difference, and maybe it is cultural where the Japanese are supposed to think of others before themselves, is I think that in the west we are so USED to the idea of being selfish, that we expect companies to grab and horde and make every last penny they can off of anything they can claim to own. This is at the expense of artists, consumers. and most importantly, fans. The thing I find sad about the whole file-sharing thing, is that it is simply fans, expressing thier love for music, and what is happening? They are being sued. Not to say that the selfishness cannot spread to individuals too, like those who try to make money off of burned games on ebay, but I think the majority of the "grey area" of copyright and piracy is just fans enjoying what they are able to and it's not hurting anyone.

Companies are losing sales? Maybe there has just been a shift in what consumers want. Take anime DVDs for instance. I am seeing a lot more box sets now, or 1st volume DVDs sold with a box. The boxes are getting nicer to, and things are coming with more extras. What does this mean? Well, I think it means that people are able to download or otherwise get a lot of anime to watch. Companies are responding by making much nicer, more value added official releaes, with extras and liner notes etc. This is only benefiitting the consumer. The music industry however, is resisting any sort of change, and it's coming down straight on the fans. The problem is that the music industry is no longer giving people what they want. It's just sad that they are unwilling to think of thier consumers and can only think of themselves.

So back to games, well, I am a fan of games. I translate games that have never been released in English, so people can play them. Why? Because, I want to play them and no one has fullfilled that need for me, I am forced to do it myself. Do I have a right to do it, well, I want to do it, I can do it, and its not hurting anyone. Whether I have a right to do it or not, I stand behind it. I think that companies have a responsibility to give people what they want. It's when the companies want to decide what thier consumers want, and don't think of thier fans, but only themselves, that fans are penalized.

The video game industry is growing and growing, and I feel happy that unlike music right now, it is an industry that is still somewhat consumer focused. They are making enough games that I want that I buy a few new games a year, heck I buy a couple CDs a year too. I think that's great. But there is a lot of other stuff that I am also happy that I can do, play emulated games, translate games, download games. That's not me being a pirate, it's a fact of the times. Things frequently change more quickly than we have the time to think about, or even to realize what has changed. But maybe Comiket can be an example that fandom and big business can get along when business takes into consideration the people that make it's products and the people who buy them, more than just making money.

[Hawanja]

Inspired by this thread, I added an article about P2P networks in my Rants section:

http://hawanja.com/rants13.htm

I might have got some of the facts wrong, feel free to taunt me. I am a grown man now. I can take it.

[filler]

That rant kicked ass!

[Lostuse]

piracy fucking ownz...

[Anonymous]

video game collecting is the current fad. It may or may not pass. I have seen both comics and sports cards go from $1000's to $1. Video game collecting may have the same future. Coimcs and sports cards had bootlegs too and it did not effect the value of the real gems. Ebay is not a real way to tell what something is worth. I have a few friends in the import buisness and many games are very common outside the US. Secondly some bootlegs are so good I'd bet only a few members on this board could spot them. I'll bet half of you bought a good bootleg that you still think is real. So does ignorance make the item more real than someone who downloaded it. It just shows the person who bought the good fake ignorant. Don't take too much pride in collecting things that is someone else's buisness that earns them a living. They will and do fool people because they want to make $$$$$$$$. If you think collecting something makes you special, just forget it when you are 40 years old you might not care anymore. Look at books for instance. Do any modern publishers have Shakespears permisson to print his play. No, they do not, so is it piracy. If thue could not publish and distribute his work no one would see it today. Games are the same way, books and plays were the entertianment activities of the past. Piracy exists and people wil continue to support it because rela capitalism has no bounds. For those of you who are collectors with pride, please continue lining the pockets of profiteers.

[Blur2040]

Video game collecting may be a short lived fad, who knows, but I don't think anyone here collects video games to "feel special." Most people who collect do it because they like games, and have an interest in them...enough so that they seek rare games out.

Ebay would seem like a good way to determine somethings value. An object's monetary value is (surprise!) determined by how much somebody is willing to pay for it. So, if somebody is willing to pay $150 for Panzer Dragoon Saga...guess what, PDS is worth $150.

Piracy....for what systems are you talking here? We're all well aware that Famicom/NES games can be pirated easily, as well as Genesis games. But most of these are poorly made, and can be spotted a mile away...and well, I can't think of any cases of NES or Genesis games that have been been copied a ton due to their insane value...which leaves us with Neo Geo...which have been pirated an sold as originals...but most people who are into Neo Geo know the risks and many of them can spot a fake pretty well. Ah, as for CDs...I can tell a burnt CD from a Pressed CD...can't you...and I know there are some really hi tech piraters...but I doubt many have CD presses...and most systems nowadays have copyright protection on the discs...something which in most cases can't be easily duplicated...cough...dreamcast...

Ah, and for your last part...the part that tickled me the most the reason we can read Shakespeare's work today is not because of rampant piracy...I believe the term I'm looking for is "Public Domain" (correct me if I am wrong...)

Read THIS

Though its kind of complicated, what it says is that works of a certain age...and if their authors have been dead for a long amount of time, they become free for all to use...this is why my copy of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass only cost me $3.95.

Oh...I did forget about GBA games...I have heard of some piracy issues with them...and that they can be hard to spot. Solution: Don't buy games that come from Hong Kong and are priced unusually cheap.

Oh...and did you come here with the intention of trolling...or did it just happen?

[Anonymous]

Everbody is forgetting that proffessionals read forums and boards. They do this to get a pulse on what makes money. Theier are both pirates and devepolers looking over your posts daily. They don't care about how you feel, its about how many units they move.

I was taking about pressed cds made at ligitimate plants beining "rented" by pirates. I hate to burst some bubbles, but it happens and googd bootlegs are passed off as originals daily. You don't have to take my word for it its happing. If you don't know about it "oh well". Laws ar changing and I'll bet many games never become public domian. Corporations own the whole pie and pirates skim a little. BIG DEAL. Its simple supply and demand. If the products were not in demand no one would by pirate copies. Look at Gamecube. I have seen very few pirate games for this system and most examples are very poor. They did thier piracy homework and for the most part lower the prices of games to a reasonable level with the passage of time.

When I was younger games actually did go on sale, clearance, discount ETc. This rarely happens today, if not for ebay and the internet reatil prices would be king. In stores I hear parents saying to thier kids "you can get it when it goes on sale" Poor kid in 2004 its not going to happen.

I don't live in the web What the F@#k is "trolling"

[Greatsaintlouis]

I KOLLEKT GAMEZ TO FEEL SPESHUL!!1 :smt040 :smt040 :smt061

Sorry, just had to get that out. The reason most of us collect games is not because it gives us that warm fuzzy feeling of some unknown accomplisment deep down inside, but mostly because we like playing them. There are some of us here who collect games and systems merely for the sake of collecting them, but that's no different than someone who collects stamps or coins per se. I really think you're wrong on the fad idea, as just like with coins, stamps, comics, action figures, and everything else you can collect, as long as there are games still being released, we will collect them.

And I'm not sure where you've been and seen pirate games, but I have never in my life even heard of a pirated Dreamcast GD-ROM or a Gamecube Disc. Yes, in parts of mainland Asia (maybe Japan too?) PS2 and PSX piracy is rampant, but if the discs my Thai roommate brings back from home are any example, it's not hard to spot a fake.

Blur mentioned this and I thought I'd reiterate - do NOT buy VERY cheaply priced GBA games shipping from Hong Kong, as they are most certianly pirate carts. I got a Japanese Mario 3 and a Zelda: Four Swords cart this summer that turned out to be fakes. On the Zelda, some of the label printing and box colors were a little off, which made it easy to identify as pirate, but in the case of Mario 3, I actually had to open the cart to verify there was no Nintendo logo on the PCB before I could tell for certain it was pirate. BEWARE!! :smt027

[A. Snow]

I see games go on sale all the time. Way more than when Nintendo dominated in the eighties. Many games also drop in price sooner not to mention all the greatest hits games. Where do you live?

[Anonymous]

In response to "see games go on sale all the time. Way more than when Nintendo dominated in the eighties. Many games also drop in price sooner not to mention all the greatest hits games. Where do you live?" The only reason greatest hits games go on sale is to curb buying used. Plain and simple, there are many games that qualify for greatest hits but never get the distinction and that is because they can be sold at full price for almost the entire existance of the system.

As for pirate games I am speicifically talking about PSone and PS2. There are fakes out there that are near perfect. They get sold online and small stores off the radar (in the U.S. Tokyo, Hong Kong)

My gamecube story was an example of a successful anti piracy policy

[Hawanja]

Who the hell is this guy?

"If you think collecting something makes you special, just forget it when you are 40 years old you might not care anymore."

Hey, I don't collect games becasue they make me "special." I don't need a room full of Nintendo carts to booster my self esteem. I like to collect them becasue I like to play the games. You got a problem with that?

As for the bootlegs being sold as originals, I have to agree with you there. If you go to less reputable outets that import a lot of their merchandise there is a slight chance that what you are buying is not the real thing *cough* WALMART *cough.* This also goes for videos, cheap electronics, clothing (especially clothing,) etc. However I would say that the stuff in major retail chains is probably 99.9% legit, at least in most western industrialized nations.

So, go to a store with a good reputation, one that you trust that doesn't exploit it's workers or sells sweatshop items. Problem solved.

Where I live games go on sale all the time. They debut at $50 or $60 and steadily go down as time goes on, eventually bottoming out between $12.99- $20. This I think is not too much to ask for a new game. I personally haven't bought a "new" game in quite some time (I'm not one of those guys who needs to have the original shrinkwrap.) If you're tired of paying fifty bones for new games then try shopping around a little.


"For those of you who are collectors with pride, please continue lining the pockets of profiteers."

What is that supposed to mean, exactly? If you mean "profiteer" when you say the people who worked hard to put out a decent product then yes, I am happy to give them my money. So what if one time in a hundred I end up buying a cheap copy, the other 99 times I bought the real thing and the money went to who it was supposed to.

And yes, one day most of the games we collect will become part of the public domain. The rules have been changed recently, extended from 50 years to who knows how long, but one day after we're all dead they will be "free." I might also add that video games/software are different than books as in there is no single "author" who owns the rights, the rights are usually reserved for the parent company to do with as they please. As it is I think it's when the said company goes out of business and if it hasn't sold the rights to another company then the game goes into public domain. Look at all the Freeware games you can get off the internet that are former C64 and Apple II games. One day that'll happen to PS2 and Gamecube games too. It might just take 150 years.

Anyway, please don't come to this board and assume we're all stupid kids. We're adults with jobs and responsibilities who play video games. Some guys fish, some play basketball, I play video games. And I cincerly hope that more "professionals" like you come and read these boards so I can continue to tell them to take thier heads out of thier asses.

[AntiPasta]

Hawanja, you took the words straight out of my mouth :smt023

[Anonymous]

THIS HOBBY IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER. When I was into sports cards and comics there were many people who got old and got out. If you knew what you were doing in the late 90's the mjority of collectors were getting out and selling for cheap. Granted most of the stuff never regined its highrst value, but they prices didn't stay rock bottom and today those cheap bulk collections are worth more than they were bought for. Video games are the same way. Eventually you just won't care and will need the cash.

Thanks for recognizing the existance of quality bootlegs.

The peolpe who make the games get hardly anything. They don't work on commision. Some very good freelance designers and programers get good $$$$, But the developers are the lowest people on the totem people who make the real money. Sorry but the guys that work the hardest get the least. The profiteers I am speaking of own thier labor and thier work. By purchasing games you are making a few higher ups look good for cracking the wip on subordinates within the company.

There are some small companies that share the wealth with empolyees, but you better have a list of companies everytime you shop and not buy from anybody else. Because few people get paid credit for thier work.

[Greatsaintlouis]

Man, you're making the gaming industry sound like the music industry now.

[Hawanja]

"THIS HOBBY IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER"

No duh. I never said it wasn't. What else could it be? A religion? A way of life? I am perfectly clear that what I do essentially fullfills the same need that a dancing monkey with a tin cup does, that is entertain me. I know that when I buy a new system and stay up three days in a row to beat a game I am essentially masturbating with a $200 machine. And you know what? I like it.

Some fools collect stamps, comics, whatever. I collect videogames. Something wrong with that?

For your information I do not collect becasue it's an "investment opportunity." I could honestly care less if my collection is worth something. It's nice to know that I could sell it for $5000 + if I choose to, perhaps when I'm a bitter old man like you I will.

As for "The peolpe who make the games get hardly anything," I would assume that they get whatever salary thier company pays them. If they don't like how much they make they are perfectly able to find a better job. That's how it works in a free market system. Those companies that pay thier people dogshit will get dogshit work in exchange, and will thus make dogshit games and recieve dogshit profit. They will go out of business. Those that pay thir people well will generally recieve better work, make better games, and get more profit. Thus the crappy companies are naturally eliminated. No one is chaining programmers to the desk and whipping them into making games for the white plantation owner.

"Because few people get paid credit for thier work."

Yeah, that's a given. When you work for a gigantic software conglomerate you do not own what you produce, nor do you get much credit. The trade off is a steady paycheck. Small time people make more money but have more risk involved. It's the same with any industry. I don't see why this is such a suprise to you.

You sound like an angry programmer that got shafted out of the rights to Pac Man or something.