Data laserdiscs and the Domesday project

[Alchy]

This is probably the wrong forum, but I thought I'd ask as there's a few older UK folks and techies here who might remember the project and format. I've got a couple of the LV-ROM discs from the Domesday project, apparently they hold "50,000 photographs, 250,000 pages of text, 24,000 maps and many millions of statistics with which to explore - now and in the future - every aspect of our life in the 1980s" to quote the intro blurb. That sounds like a shitload of data, especially for 1986, but I can't locate anywhere which will actually enumerate the capacity.

So does anyone else remember the Domesday project, the players, or anything else? Were there ever any other LV-ROM discs? Seems strange that they'd go to all the trouble of creating a format and then only use it for one project.

[Tachikoma]

I remember reading some articles on it not long ago, I don't know anything other than what you can find with a 20 second google search though. It seemed an excellent project originally, and makes you think about how reliable current media formats are.

[APE]

Data from laserdiscs can be ripped you just need a laserdisc unit that can be interfaced with a computer. I wouldn't expect it to be speedy unless you reinvent the octagon wheel.

[Tachikoma]

These are different from your normal Laserdiscs, they were custom built, pre CD-ROM standardisation and there are only about 2 or 3 of the actual drives left.

[babu]

this page seems to have some info:
http://www.atsf.co.uk/dottext/domesday.html

..and the section about the player:
http://www.atsf.co.uk/dottext/domesday.html#player

[Alchy]

Yeah, I've read most of what's on google about the Domesday project, including that article, it's interesting stuff. Just wondering if people had any memories or comments, really. The idea that they'd create an entire format (LV-ROM) just for one project seems peculiar, and I'd still be interested to hear theoretically how many bytes of storage an LV-ROM would hold. Since it can obviously hold digital information, there must be a maximum.

[madhatter256]

Is this the same thing as the other doomsday project this one group is doing in Norway (or one of those Scandinavian countries)? Where they are taking seeds of all the plants and genetic info, etc. and putting it deep in a mine?

[Tachikoma]

Afraid not. This is an early attempt to create a standardised digital medium and use it to store historical data for "the good of all mankind".

[ASSEMbler]

Data's no ggod when the format dies. Long after we're all gone our data will be indecipherable. Better off using cave paintings.

[ServiceGames]

I was thinking the same thing.

Tech is great but if we really want to leave something behind we're going to need to carve it in stone or preserve it in writing on actual high quality papers and inks.

How stupid a project was this if even now just some 20 odd years later the data is nearly unusable?

[AntiPasta]

Before this question could be resolved Philips suggested putting a CD-ROM type of channel onto the disc in place of the sound channels. The data channel would provide over 300 Megabytes of data on a disc side ... such riches! This format later came to be called LVROM.

Haven't got the time to read the whole article, but if it just boils down to this I'm afraid to say that it isn't that special. There've been other implementations of LD that did exactly the same - as a matter of fact, I remember trying to find info on Pioneer's LD-ROM format a year or so ago and I even found the manual for some baroque Pioneer 8086/LD hybrid machine that could also decode data from the audio channel. Apparently noone ever got around to changing the entire disc encoding for data (ie doing away with the analog video track), the capacity would've been a LOT bigger in that case.

[WolverineDK]

I was thinking the same thing.

Tech is great but if we really want to leave something behind we're going to need to carve it in stone or preserve it in writing on actual high quality papers and inks.

How stupid a project was this if even now just some 20 odd years later the data is nearly unusable?

As I have said before, then LPs for the win, when it comes to very long lasting sound recording, and some kind of great quality tapes . And video, then it is raw film, that is the only way around having very long lasting material, you can develop, and redevelop the negatives and etc. In normal pictures. If you take care of the source. That is why, I am not using digital technology, before analog. Since I can always redevelop analog, but I can´t do that with digital. So analog medias for the win, in the end :) Since even 100 years from now, you can play those medias. and of course written paper can still be read in 100 years.
Anyway, sorry to go offtopic in a laser disc thread :)

[Alchy]

You are aware that analogue media degrades over time as well, yes? None of your VHS tapes will be much use in 100 years time, film reels degrade too. And you can't always "redevelop" analogue media, in terms of replication digital is better since you can get an actual 1:1 copy each time.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just letting you know.

[WolverineDK]

You are aware that analogue media degrades over time as well, yes? None of your VHS tapes will be much use in 100 years time, film reels degrade too. And you can't always "redevelop" analogue media, in terms of replication digital is better since you can get an actual 1:1 copy each time.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just letting you know.

I know, Alchy, but the digital degradition of media is worse, than the analog media under good conditions. Since you can still redevelop old glass pictures today.
And your analog pictures can be redeveloped in 100 years, if you take care of them, and well there is a plastic base over the negatives, that makes them protected. But on CD, DVD and etc, digital media, there fungi has great growing potentials. I saw a documentary some time ago now, and my father still have that documentary. So I am not rolling out joke information about it. And it was by the way an English documentary, about how much shit you can loose through going all digital in pictures and etc.

[Alchy]

A 1 will still be a 1 in 100 year's time, if you protect the media well enough and re-copy it often enough. The image will be identical. This is not the case for analogue media.

If you're talking about the challenges of developing and changing standards, then sure, there's issues; these LV-ROMs prove exactly that in the most ironic way (since they were supposed to be a record like the original Domesday book, 900 years ago). These issues remain for analogue media as well as digital, however. Case in point, the BBC are converting all their old analogue media to digital for archival purposes, so they obviously think the latter has more longevity.

[WolverineDK]

A 1 will still be a 1 in 100 year's time, if you protect the media well enough and re-copy it often enough. The image will be identical. This is not the case for analogue media.

If you're talking about the challenges of developing and changing standards, then sure, there's issues; these LV-ROMs prove exactly that in the most ironic way (since they were supposed to be a record like the original Domesday book, 900 years ago). These issues remain for analogue media as well as digital, however. Case in point, the BBC are converting all their old analogue media to digital for archival purposes, so they obviously think the latter has more longevity.

Yeah, but it would suck major for BBC, if bitrot got the life of some their old stuff, that they didn´t have any analog backup off.

[Baseley09]

We had a BBC & Laserdisc set up in school, i cant recall exactly if we had the Doomsday thing but it was all definately edutainment soft, motion galleries of paintings etc.

Some stuff here http://www.iconbar.com/forums/viewthread.php?newsid=937

[Alchy]

Yeah, but it would suck major for BBC, if bitrot got the life of some their old stuff, that they didn´t have any analog backup off.

I'm going to say this once more and then I'm dropping the subject: that's also a big a problem for analogue media. It's why you have upkeep and redundancy, ie you copy your content to newer storage methods every 10-20 years or so and keep multiple copies. It's a moot point anyway, digital is the future for most archives.

Baseley, that was almost certainly the Domesday project, if you're right about it being a Micro and a Laserdisc unit. There really doesn't seem to have been anything much else done with the setup at all.

[Baseley09]

There was one sold on ebay within the last month I just tried doing a completed listing search and found nothing, but there was deffinately a BBC micro & LD set up on there salvaged from a school...I thought nothing of it at the time bar nostalgia value ( I hawk LD auctions like a...hawk...daily ahem ) sorry I know this doesnt help much, but shows they are out there still.

[Alchy]

Was it going for much?