Saturn Shen-Mue & other unreleased Saturn talk

[Anthaemia.]

Although such an idea would work, you could easily sell copies of the pre-corrupted disc on a regular basis so that anybody desperately wanting to play leaks released in this way could get around the limit. Of course, supply might be difficult to keep up with, depending on how long the files last before they pass beyond the point of being rendered playable...

[la-li-lu-le-lo]

Well, how about this idea:

The files don't just corrupt after a certain elapse of time, but rather on a certain date. Let's say that the game couldn't be used off of your computer because it would include a program you'd need to run for it to work. Perhaps the file would be unreadable without this program running. For the program to allow you to use the game, it would have to have a constant internet connection so it could check the atomic time (since people could just change their computer's clocks). The program would allow you to use this game until a certain date, and then it would corrupt or delete it. That way, after a certain date nobody would be able to use it any more.

The downside is that this would only work with systems that can be emulated on a PC. Still, it would be better than nothing in many cases; it would probably work with many unreleased Saturn and Dreamcast games, for example.

[Barc0de]

this doesnt even make sense. games arent released in a single format. Its game images, usually running on consoles, or debug kits. You have no control of the media once its stored on a CD etc (Burned).

[la-li-lu-le-lo]

You don't understand; you wouldn't be able to use it on a console. It would be encrypted in some way so that you couldn't use it without some program that would make it readable.

[Anthaemia.]

I've heard of such official media that exists, which follows the same principle that causes "bit rot" over a shorter period of time than normal discs by using some kind of chemical that can only be exposed to a drive's read laser a certain number of times - correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this once get tested as a possible replacement for the more traditional video rental system when the DVD format was first launched?

[babu]

this got me thinking of those paper disc developed by sony:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_disc

considering bluray can supposedly read these disc.. maybe ps3 developers will use this when sending out review copies and telling them to burn the disc later ;)

[Segafreak_NL]

I'd give it a week before it's cracked.

[Barc0de]

by the same coin, one can copy the bit-rot deemed disc to a hard-disk, make an image, or copy it all together to a standard medium, before the bit rots:P

On the subject, people who have beta or proto games, have them on carts , CDs , NR discs and what have you. There's no way to ensure bit-rot accross all these formats, especially when they re distributed on the internet thru bits which are stored on a local hard drive, thus ensuring their virtually unlimited life.

[nem]

correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this once get tested as a possible replacement for the more traditional video rental system when the DVD format was first launched?

Yep, you're right. It was called DIVX (no, not that DivX).

[Szczepaniak]

Speaking of Saturn Shenmue, does anyone know where there are some decent, high quality, and unwatermarked images of it? I'm guessing the only ones available would be from the Shenmue II video... which is fine.

[Anthaemia.]

With that video in particular, AM2 surprised a lot of people as few even knew about the existence of Shenmue as a Saturn project before footage was included with the second Dreamcast game. If only they'd now treat us remaining fans who are desperate to see - or even play - anything from their other cancelled titles from this period, such as Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 or the conversion of Sonic The Fighters. I can dream...

[sayin999]

I am really curious to find out how shenmue exactly played on saturn and what features were added when it was ported to dc.

If you notice in the saturn clip ryo is confronting lan di's guards who are in front of his home.

Also notice that when ryo enters the basement the entrance is acutally located on the outside. Dobuita itself isn't really shown in the video except for the scene with Gui Zhang Chen.

So the saturn version probably had a ton of differences.

I have noticed when playing the 1st shenmue, things such as the fridge handle in ryo's kitchens as well as some air conditoners sticking out of homes have a very pixilated texture that looks like it was lifted straight from a 32bit game, makes you wonder if there are other saturn leftovers in the game.

[Barc0de]

I doubt it. Saturn assets aren't very recycle-friendly.

[hl718]

hl718, would you ever part with a SNES-CD if you had one? even for 10.000 dollars?

Barc0de> My answer to you would be yes. Collecting is fun, but it's not the end all of everything. I've been toying with the idea of dumping my entire collection lately simply for size reasons -- at a certain point you either have to start up a "proper" museum or just give up. If I could find a collector with the proper resources, I'd gladly give up the games collection (rarities and all) for a nice sum of cash.

Well, how about this idea:

The files don't just corrupt after a certain elapse of time, but rather on a certain date. Let's say that the game couldn't be used off of your computer because it would include a program you'd need to run for it to work. Perhaps the file would be unreadable without this program running. For the program to allow you to use the game, it would have to have a constant internet connection so it could check the atomic time (since people could just change their computer's clocks). The program would allow you to use this game until a certain date, and then it would corrupt or delete it. That way, after a certain date nobody would be able to use it any more.

The downside is that this would only work with systems that can be emulated on a PC. Still, it would be better than nothing in many cases; it would probably work with many unreleased Saturn and Dreamcast games, for example.

This already exists on the PC side of things, and yes, developers already use it to protect code.

I've heard of such official media that exists, which follows the same principle that causes "bit rot" over a shorter period of time than normal discs by using some kind of chemical that can only be exposed to a drive's read laser a certain number of times - correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this once get tested as a possible replacement for the more traditional video rental system when the DVD format was first launched?

As already mentioned the Divx format (owned by Circuit City) was tested at the advent of DVDs, but it didn't work via bit-rot. It worked because all the players were connected to a central database and discs were serialized. When you bought a disc for $3-5 you simply bought the media and the right to watch it for something like 48 hours. After that the player would refuse to play the disc unless you "upgraded" it by making an online purchase via the player. At that point it would work like a normal DVD and play an unlimited amount of times in the player.

There was a more recent effort (which was in test but was not a success at retail in the US) wherein the DVD plastic was made differently and reacted to air. As soon as the disc came into contact with the environment, a chemical reaction would slowly turn the plastic opaque, thereby rendering the disc unreadable after two days. This was meant to be a "throw-away" rental and demo solution.

While the product didn't take off in the US, it is available in Japan in a limited fashion. Mission Impossible III was released on the 48DVD format.

You can get more information at www.flexplay.com.

-hl718

[Yakumo]

Barc0de> My answer to you would be yes. Collecting is fun, but it's not the end all of everything. I've been toying with the idea of dumping my entire collection lately simply for size reasons --

If you do and you are selling something I'm after please let me know first :thumbsup:

There was a more recent effort (which was in test but was not a success at retail in the US) wherein the DVD plastic was made differently and reacted to air. As soon as the disc came into contact with the environment, a chemical reaction would slowly turn the plastic opaque, thereby rendering the disc unreadable after two days. This was meant to be a "throw-away" rental and demo solution.

Those discs are pretty uncommon here as well. There's a magazine that features them as cover mounted discs but even that is uncommon. I see this format dead in the water by the end of 2007 if not sooner.

Yakumo

[Anthaemia.]

The discs that react to air were the ones tested briefly here in the UK (by none other than Blockbuster for their online rental service, I believe), which even featured on a news article where I recall somebody opening a sample from its protective sleeve to demonstrate - though presumably not in real time - how the data becomes unplayable over time.

[GigaDrive]

Anthaemia - regarding Kowloon Tower from the early / beta / introduction of Shenmue (before it was split into 2 parts) and the somewhat redesigned version in Shenmue II, and it's connection to The Tower of Babel tech demo, I am very curious about that myself.

For those that don't know: Before Shenmue was even known as Project Berkley, it was known (perhaps just unofficially) as Virtua Fighter RPG. It was reported that one of the environments for VFRPG was the Tower of Babel, or something very similar to it. So there definitally does seem to be a connection.


http://www.computerandvideogames.com...e.php?id=10704

Yu Suzuki and Virtua Fighter: RPG
Wednesday 15-Aug-2001 12:00 AM It takes precedence over VF 4
Details continue to seep out about the Virtua Fighter: RPG project, which will be one of the key Dreamcast games of next year. Also known as, 'The Berkeley Project' because of producer Yu Suzuki's penchant for the American educational establishment, the project aims at nothing less than creating a new genre in gaming.


The measure of Berkeley's importance is that AM2's executive producer, Yu Suzuki, who holds an unparalleled position in Sega R&D, has devoted himself exclusively to the game for the last two years. Which means it took precedence even over the VF3 conversion to Dreamcast. Suzuki has revealed that the next arcade instalment, Virtua Fighter 4, will be delayed until the completion of this project.


What do we know of it? Firstly, that characters from the Virtua Fighter games are involved - but perhaps not at the same stage in their life. A top secret demo is purported to exist that features a young version of the old drunk Shun Di, the stern Lau, but minus his ponytail, and Akira.


This demo is also said to use environments similar to the Tower of Babel demo used to showcase Dreamcast, a short project Yu Suzuki oversaw.


The game will be a mixture of exploration, character encounters and plot development - like any RPG - but with an emphasis on fighting too. It will also feature anything up to different 700 characters - a mind-blowing figure than shrinks epics like Final Fantasy VII into size.


But then, Berkeley is clearly a reposte to Square's games which have done so much to sell the Playstation across the world. Sega, and AM R&D particularly were open to the charge of producing a narrow range of games of interest only to arcade gamers. Berkeley is the most potent symbol of the 'New Sega' and its broader ambitions. Release, hopefully, will be some time next year.

http://dreamcast.ign.com/articles/064/064914p1.html

Virtua Fighter RPG: The Story so Far
Some juicy tidbits emerge about this classic-in-the-making
by IGN Staff

September 18, 1998 - This much-anticipated title is very, very early in development at the moment, and the gossip that it will ship at launch is totally unfounded. According to IGNDC's deep undercover operatives, the game is currently being shown to developers in video format, and features a young Shun (the drunken old guy from VF2 and 3) wandering about a basic environment.

Right now, it's not known if any of the established characters are in there (presumably the game is set before any of the others are born), but the video has revealed the Tower of Babel (the one from the demo) is one of the stages.

More details as soon as we have them. Maybe. If you ask us nicely, and we feel like being magnanimous.

[saturn_worship]

Cool info GigaDrive, but i already got a heart attack when i sawn news on this thread, you know, don't know for others but for me play this on a Saturn is a holy grail.

[Lyris]

If it helps to have a videophile eye cast over the Saturn Shenmue video that's on the Dreamcast Shenmue 2 Disc 4, then you might already have spotted that it is sourced from a VHS cassette. I wonder for what purpose the developers would record footage to VHS, I can only assume it would be to present devkit footage without hauling the thing around.

[Anthaemia.]

Forgive me for not knowing the correct videophile terminology, but I was recently going through the Shenmue Saturn Version footage for screen captures and I too have noticed artifacts common with VHS-sourced media, including what appears to be the horizontal distortion you sometimes get at the bottom of a screen in one scene. Also, there are some instances where the frame (or "flame" as it is sometimes written, Engrish spotters!) doesn't quite align right from one section to the next. While this is only speculation on my part, it seems the editor consciously decided to trim off any borders, lowering the resolution back to 320x224 - which just so happens to be the Saturn's default display mode and what this game was rumoured to run in. Now, if this was taken from a videotape then from experience there should be some degree of bleedthrough from the surrounding black areas, but in this case there doesn't seem to be. Does anybody know if you can record directly onto cassettes at this resolution, or was the source digital and therefore less prone to such problems? Either way, it's a good observation I've noticed before, but for some reason never really brought up. Finally, it's been suggested in the past that a copy of Shenmue in its 32-bit guise exists in the vault at Sega of Japan's headquarters, though now I'm starting to think somewhere along the line someone may have mistaken a copy of the actual game for the reference tape clearly used for Shenmue II's bonus clip...