learning japanese

[atomiX]

a few years back, i started learning japanese. i had to stop due to the fact that i had more important things going on. i managed to learn my hiragana and katakana.

i'm just wondering where the best place to start is...is it better to learn the kana first or grammar should be first (with phonetic western alphabet)?

any tips much appreciated

[Yakumo]

It's best to learn a shit load of words first along with basic grammar. Then learn your Hiragana and Katakana. Then move on to more complex grammar and more vocab' then on to learning the shitty make no sense kanji.

Yakumo

[atomiX]

thanks, anything else i should know?

[Yakumo]

Yeah, don't expect any Japanese to speak slowly for you when you try to speak to them :p

Yakumo

[Calpis]

it's not exactly hard to memorize hiragana and katakana, do that. the faster you start reading and writing in japanese the better.

[GaijinPunch]

Community College is probably the 3rd best place to start, followed only by living in Japan, and University. All things considered, it's a lot of bang for buck. Just don't be alarmed by the type of students Japanese classes at community college cater to.

[Yakumo]

Community College is probably the 3rd best place to start, followed only by living in Japan, and University. All things considered, it's a lot of bang for buck. Just don't be alarmed by the type of students Japanese classes at community college cater to.

What type are they then? I've never had the chance. Are they the Gaki's (or is it Gakki?) of the world? I learned my Japanese just by being here. I hate to study which is why my Kanji level is pathetic but at least I can speak and that's what's most important. Because then if you can't read something you can just ask someone.

Yakumo

[Calpis]

I'm guessing he's talking about the "otaku" types

[GaijinPunch]

I'm guessing he's talking about the "otaku" types

You sir, hit the nail on the head. I also got a few other "unclassifieds" in my couple of community collegel classes. *shudders*

The flip side is, in university, you're more likely to get a couple of Asian kids, probably Chinese, that have lived in Japan a year, speak really well, and show off most of the time.

Obviously as Yakumo said, being there is the best, but if you don't take a class, you might wind up being able to say a lot, but not really having a solid foundation for the grammar. Makes for a wobbly house, if you know what I mean.

Study up boys!

EDIT: Hawaii isn't bad either. Only a few million Japanese people here.

[Kotodama]

I'll vouch for the otaku types in community colleges and those Chinese types at Universities. Also if you go to Japanese University, you get the "I went to International school, and therefore I can't read Japanese" Japanese type.

Meh sometimes, I'd rather have the ability to speak then just read things. Especially when chatting with the old folks. Then I think of the RPGs, and it's all right I guess.

Yeah learning a crap load of vocab is key, the problem becomes remembering'em. Also, kanji is insane, but there is a method to it's madness, but it's still madness.

[atomiX]

are kanji necessary to learn for the casual speaker/writer or can you go about without them. IIRC, kanji are japanese renditions of certain chinese kana right? (or close to them anyway)

[Kotodama]

Depends on what do you mean by casual speaker/writer.

Yes Kanji are the Japanese version of traditional Chinese characters (hanzu?), their are some differences in writing and meaning, but it's good enough match that if you understand Chinese characters you can extract the meanings and readings at times.

[Yakumo]

I'd say that you can live quite well without knowing Kanji. Just as long as you know the Kanji to the place you want to travel to since not all trains or buses use English or even Hiragana. All train stations however do have the names written in Hiragana. If you're driving you'll notice that every main sign is in English and well as Japanese. Just remember that the Japanese drive on the same side as us Brits, Aussies, Chinese and Singaporians :p So that's cool for me but not for my mate from Germany :D

Yakumo

[GaijinPunch]

Kanji eventually gets not so hard to learn. The first 800 of them are quite hellish though. You can function extremely well in society with knowing 1000. 1500+ and you're pretty unstoppable, as long as you know a lot of vocabulary to use them.

[Mark30001]

I didn't want to make a whole new thread when this was here, so...

I've always wondered, why is Hiragana used more often in sentences than Katakana? Is Katakana reserved for nouns?

Also, I think it was discussed in another thread, but why is a hyphen included in some Katakana words? For example (What I found at the Nintendo Japan site): Super Donkey Kong 3 in Japanese (スーパードンキーコング３).

I'm very fascinated in learning more about the Japanese language & culture and hope to visit there sooner or later! :020:

[Yakumo]

I've always wondered, why is Hiragana used more often in sentences than Katakana? Is Katakana reserved for nouns? Hiragana is used for Japanese words only while Katakana should be used for non Japanese words but sometimes Japanese us it for Japanese words such as Gomen (Short friendly version of Gomennasai which means sorry). Why? Who knows! The Japanese make it up as they go along I say.


Also, I think it was discussed in another thread, but why is a hyphen included in some Katakana words? For example (What I found at the Nintendo Japan site): Super Donkey Kong 3 in Japanese (スーパードンキーコング３). The small dot and two dashes change the sound of the Hiagana or Katakana. Take a look below.

HA - HI - FU - HE - HO becomes PA - PI - PU - PE - PO if the dot is used

HA - HI - FU - HE - HO becomes BA - BI - BU - BE - BO if the two dashes are used

This is because there are no kana for those sounds. Not only can the "H" sounds be changed with the two dashes but also "S" which becomes "Z" and "T" which becomes "D" and "K" which becomes "G" I hope that makes sence to you. So Donky Kong would be written like this. Only the "H" sound uses the dot.

TONKI- KONKU （トンキー　コンク） but add the two dashes to TO and KU will give you DO and GU spelling DONKI- KONGU （ドンキー　コング） which is Donkey Kong. The ー sign or line if you want to call it that just extends the sound of the letter before it.

Yakumo

[Warakia]

Katakana is also used for Bobby!

You write originally japanese words in katakana to add emphasis, or indicate they are badly pronounced or to make them emphatic and cool. So you could write temee, in hiragana but it is more powerful in katakana.

BTW hiragana is sometimes used to write original katakana words to make them cute, see most bishoujou games for evidence of that. Other example - pop your copy of chip chan kick into your fx and see how they have written option!

[Yakumo]

Yes those reasons are all right Warakia but I'd say they are more "Pop culture" than actual rules of Japanese. Still, like I said, they make it up as they go along :p

Yakumo

[WolverineDK]

Hmmm if I should learn Japanese, I would learn the formal Japanese, just like when I learned English I would learn the formal English (Oxford English) to an extend.

Because I have always heard that if you speak very clearly, in any language you would be understood better, than speaking with a heavy accent. Even though I can speak American if I have to do it. Since I love languages and japanese is a language I would love to learn.

And yes it sounds snobby (to some people) , that I would speak a kind of Oxford English. But to me it is something else that drives me speaking a dialect like that. :-)

So I would say Summimasen . But of course I would learn as much Japanese as possible :)

But what does summimas ka mean ? If you can say it ?

[Yakumo]

You can't say Sumimasen ka. It doesn't mean anything. Sumimasen mostly pronounced Sumasen just means excuse me or sorry.

Yakumo

[WolverineDK]

You can't say Sumimasen ka. It doesn't mean anything. Sumimasen mostly pronounced Sumasen just means excuse me or sorry.

Yakumo

Thanks for the info :)

[Mark30001]

Thanks you all for all the help! I started learning 5 years ago, but stopped because school started interfering. I still have the whole Katakana chart burned into my memory!

[Borman]

How are the international universities in Japan? Does anyone know about any of them? Ive been looking at a few, so it would be cool if anyone heard anything about them

[Tatsujin]

You can't say Sumimasen ka. It doesn't mean anything. Sumimasen mostly pronounced Sumasen just means excuse me or sorry.

Yakumo

may be he just wants to say "sumimasen ga..". which means "excuse me, but.."

[ASSEMbler]

Kanji will make your brain bleed, forget the kana...

Don't use cds or tapes, not unless you want to sound like acountry bumpkin or a woman.

A pal learned "poof" Japanese from a girl, he was laughed at every time he opened his mouth.

Apart from there being about 30 ways to say excuse me, depending on the social situation...

[Yakumo]

may be he just wants to say "sumimasen ga..". which means "excuse me, but.."
Ahh, you could be right there. It's easy to mistake the kana for Ka and Ga if you don't see the 2 dashes.

Yakumo

[GaijinPunch]

A pal learned "poof" Japanese from a girl, he was laughed at every time he opened his mouth.

Lots of gaijin do, as they pick it up from their girlfriends. Might get you laughed at down the road, but hopefully you got laid more than a few times on the way.

[Warakia]

When I first started Japanese, my tutor took me aside and said the most important thing for me to do was to learn masculine Japanese. He even gave me a book on how to be rude in Japanese, a truly excellent resource, as now I can sound like a grumpy Japanese detective at will.

On top of that I learned most of my Japanese in Osaka which makes me sound crude outside of kansai if I put that on. At least I get "kakoeeeeeed" whenever I open my mouth. I would advise all men learning Japanese to get as rough as possible, means you actually sound like a Japanese male.

[GaijinPunch]

I would advise them to learn both, and also how to differentiate between the two. If you get good enough, people hold what you say against you... especially in the work place. :(

[ASSEMbler]

Yeah, I get better response using a manly wording most times. They think we're savages anyway lol.

Perhaps, we would say unrefined. And yes don't sound like a sissy. Far better to be manly and use boku all the time.

Not like I'm going to meet the emperor or anyone worthwhile.

[Tatsujin]

in most of the offices using "boku" already is too roughly! when i started work in japan, i used to say boku all times, till my joushi advised me to say watashi inside the office or even watakushi in front of the shacho for exp. but one of my big beginner mistake was to say always "ne" at the end of the sentence:noooo:

[Warakia]

Yeah Keigo is another deal, I'm not a fan except when they use it on gankutsuou! Anyway keigo is my weak point, I can be polite in an office/official occasion, but my keigo pretty much operates on set phrases and verbs I have the hang of. It just doesn't sound very natural - oh well when I start working I guess I'll pick it up quite quickly. I can force a watakushi, but only at gunpoint.

See when you're starting out, and a gaijin you can pretty much get away with anything. Introduce yourself as 俺の名は？だ。 OR even 我が名は。。。　Very amusing!

[citcelaid]

The thing about Keigo is that it sounds super impressive when you know what you're doing, but when you get it wrong it backfires and is hugely embarrassing. For example saying "haiken itadakimasu" instead of "haiken itashimasu". Mistakes like that will make you sound like a total conceited prick.:evil:


I would advise them to learn both, and also how to differentiate between the two. If you get good enough, people hold what you say against you... especially in the work place. :(

Exactly. There's no way around learning all levels of speech, because you WILL have to be able to use them all in their own contexts if you plan to ever live and work in Japan for an extended period.

[atomiX]

Damn. all these different types of Japanese are hurting my head. I'm wanting more and more to start learning again. Too bad I already forgot all my Kana.

It isn't really possible for me to go to Japan anytime soon just to learn the language (although going to Japan is something I'd really want to do in the future) so are there any good resources for someone in my situation to learn a good base from scratch?

[Warakia]

Ok, everyone has texts they love, but one of my sensei (who has a phd in educational psychology!) says that the following are the best sources for starting to learn japanese.

There is a set of books called Minna no nihongo - which are great and are the best foundation one could ask for.
Also you can't go wrong with - A dictionary of basic Japanese grammer. Though some prefer the structured lessons of minna no nihongo.
If you are more linguistically inclined try Tsujimura's Japanese linguistics book before you start.

A friend of mine at cambridge uses "japanese for college students" and raves about it - although I think it is not as good as the minna series.

Anyway you could just go out and get any books, but I would steer away from ones for buisness people or tourists, as they don't give you a good foundation. Also make sure it does not write the script in romanji - learning in hiragana will help you in the long term. Good luck...

[Tachikoma]

I am having the problem of not enough time, I do lessons for 2 hours every Saturday, but it's over by the time the class gets really rolling. I don't have enough time at home to go over my notes, so I am falling behind the student types who just drink and study... The Hiragana thing is easier now I can put it into the context of the lessons, but again, other than the odd 10 minutes in work, I don't get the time to go over anything...

[Yakumo]

I used to use Mina no Nihongo when I first started. I remember it being written in Roman letters as well so even if you couldn't read kana it was easy to get in to.

Yakumo

[Warakia]

Oh just a note on my fav minna no nihongo - there are two books for each level. One is all in Japanese, the other translating it all for you. You need them both - get the japanese only one and you're up a certain creek without a certain instrument.

Also the Kano basic kanji books are the best as far as I can see. They are out of print but I scored 3 of them in an oxfam shop so you might get lucky!

BTW - beyond polite japanese = the starting point for basic slang.

Or wait for it........................... go out and score a japanese girlfriend. I got loads of kids kanji learning toys from one girl, always useful. Or get yourself a bandai playdia and get busy with the kids games!

[Yakumo]

Using a mobile phone is also a very good way to learn Kanji as you're mailing. Warakia, did you know that BOA learned Kanji from mailing or so she said on a TV interview.

Yakumo

[Warakia]

Didn't know that! That is a good way, I think that is how I learned ones you don't see in text books like ore, ishou ni, tabun and tame. Still all very well and good for "real" japanese. The problem at university is they expect you to be able to write a solid thousand after one year. Writing just seems a little pointless - especially when a good (very clever) Japanese friend could not even remember 旅行! Still my kanji don't look very good - I was told they were cute(!) on one occasion... Not a good thing.

I just know that I have worked my arse off (ish) to learn how to write the damn things, then I will never need them and forget them like normal Japanese people. You only really need to be able to read moji.

Anyway what ever is good for BOA is good for me.

[atomiX]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm sure starting is the hardest part. I'll look around for those books.

[Calpis]

Starting is definately not the hardest part lol

[Mark30001]

I've had these for a long while now, and can't wait to read them over again once this school semester is over! Are there any other English to Japanese learning books that could be highly recommended? I think those should do.

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9311/nippon8uc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Tachikoma]

Apparently "Japanese for busy people" is good, it's what my Japanese teacher and all the upper level students use.

[atomiX]

Starting is definately not the hardest part lol
Why is that?

[GaijinPunch]

Why is that?

B/c the basics are not really that hard. At least what you learn your first year. Hiragana, katakana, some verb tenses, grammar, and very basic vocabulary. It's the subleties after about 3 years that will start to kill you, and of course, kanji can only be learned by hours and hours of mind-numbing repetition.

I think the best books for reference, not for self-teaching, are the Beginner Dictionary of Japanese Grammar and Intermediate Dictionary of Japanese Grammar. Painfully hard to find though. The last place I saw them was Kinokuniya in Shinjuku.

[Warakia]

You do build momentum very quickly and as long as you are practicing (read - playing jap games) everyday you will be fine. Japanese grammer is tough though - the problem is that it is hard to fit in western linguisitc systems. Try getting your head round the difference between Ha/Ga.

As for Japanese for busy people - I have that here and it is ok. They use romaji (which I think is bad for pronunciation) and very little kanji. It will get you speaking everyday japanese very quickly. (I brought it and never really used it)

mark30001 - that book on the left is the first book I ever used! I brought it just before I went to japan for the first time when I was 12. Ahhh those were the days. 12 year old in akihabara (with my mother - of course) good times.

[Mark30001]

You do build momentum very quickly and as long as you are practicing (read - playing jap games) everyday you will be fine. Japanese grammer is tough though - the problem is that it is hard to fit in western linguisitc systems. Try getting your head round the difference between Ha/Ga.

As for Japanese for busy people - I have that here and it is ok. They use romaji (which I think is bad for pronunciation) and very little kanji. It will get you speaking everyday japanese very quickly. (I brought it and never really used it)

mark30001 - that book on the left is the first book I ever used! I brought it just before I went to japan for the first time when I was 12. Ahhh those were the days. 12 year old in akihabara (with my mother - of course) good times.

Jeeze, 12 yrs old. I wish my mom would have taken me to Japan instead of France... *Jealous* :crying:

[Yakumo]

You could be like me and just learn the kana and sod the kanji since you'll pick up the ones you really need as time goes by. Speaking is the most important ! You can always ask what a Kanji says if you can't read it. For example, I just came back from ESSO after buying petrol for the car and paraffin for the fan heater. I had to use the machines which of course have no English. The kanji such machines use are the ones you'll see almost every day and probably the most important for daily life as long as you don't want to read books or newspapers. Personally I can't read a news paper in Japanese but if someone read it to me I'd have no problems in understanding.

Yakumo

[Tatsujin]

Japanese grammer is tough though - the problem is that it is hard to fit in western linguisitc systems.

that's the point! japanese sounds, compared with german e.g, like a children language. in fact the grammer itself is not that difficult, but damn different. the most difficult part of it is to know at which situation to choose which of the millions expression existing etc. an other hard difficulty is, the sheer nonfinite amount of phrases with allmost the same pronuncation. this part makes the understanding so damn hard (bidirectional of coz)! specially when they talking in some kind of slang!

[oceanfr]

Apparently "Japanese for busy people" is good, it's what my Japanese teacher and all the upper level students use.

I heard a comment about something not so good about it forgot what it was exactly, Think it was something about how it teaches the language, its accuracy you have to step away from english and romaji to learn the language or something..


The ones I might get are Genki and Yokosoo

[AntiPasta]

I have a Yokosoo book... but to be honest I wouldnt recommend it... it's supposed to be used in a classroom setting with a specific book for the instructor, IIRC.

[Warakia]

For those who know a little japanese already - A great little tip (I think..) Grab a copy of "undocumented the rumble fish" the arcadia guide book, inside on page 158 onwards there is all the (translated) dialogue from the game, I have just spent the past hour learning loads of great insults! (it is kinda hard to learn pure japanese rough language, for those wondering)

[cdoty]

i'm just wondering where the best place to start is...is it better to learn the kana first or grammar should be first (with phonetic western alphabet)?

any tips much appreciated

Although I've never used it to learn Japanese, Rosetta Stone (http://www2.rosettastone.com/en/offer/google2) seems really good. It's actually a lot of fun to use.

[liquitt]

btw, i have a nice book called "Japanese via Manga"

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3898859207.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

it's good for the first few weeks, just to get into it
it's german though, but maybe you can find something similar

[Warakia]

Yeah there is a version like that in English, never used it. It came a bit late in my study.

But grabbing some kiddy manga and a dictionary is another fun way to go. I used various japanese kids learning items when I started out. Wish I had had my playdia when I was a kid so I could have learned with ultraman!

[Tachikoma]

Same thing works to a degree with Kiddy anime, stuff like Jagainukun is so basic it's impossible for the fansubbers to get wrong, so it's good for (very) basic conversational stuff.

[Saikoroji]

Ugh, this question is going to sound really ignorant, but here goes: how often is ふりがな used in everyday Japanese publication and printed word? With the class I'm currently in Kanji is not a priority, so I know very few as of yet. Hiragana phonetics help me out a lot.

(By the way, hello!)

[Warakia]

Welcome saikoroji! My no-nonsense advice is get the kanji sorted as while furigana turns up fairly often in manga, but no-where else really. You do see very difficult kanji picked out in furigana in everyday printed word, but most of the time you are stumped. I wouldn't rely on it being there, even in basic shonen manga, they will not do the basic kanji for you.

As for games, only a real handful have the old furigana,