Beginer's dev console?

[lwizardl]

whats the easiest ( I know none are easy to program but some have to be easier than others) console to program for. Looking to start game development. I know PC are best to start with.

the hardware I currently own are

GB/GBA Pelican Accessories Games Downloader (256K Flash Cart)
DC VMS with transfer cable

modded systems
GameCube
PS2
Saturn
xbox

James (lwizardl)

[subbie]

GBA by far. Its simple, the homebrew sdk are well setup and the system over all is just simple to work with.

It was because of the GBA i was able to get into the VG industry.

gbadev.org has all that you need.

[the_steadster]

yep, I'd go with what subbie says. AFAIK, in order of easiness to hardness, your consoles go:
1 GBa
2 DC VMS
3 Xbox
4 PS2/GC (unsure of which)
and 6 Saturn

[lwizardl]

I do own 1 devkit but its not complete gotta locate stuff first
I have a 3DO Dev Tower also, but I need to get some cash and locate the missing stuff.

james

[AntiPasta]

3DO would not be a good choice especially considering you'd be the first homebrew developer ;-)
Seriously, get a simple book on BASIC, Pascal or C and start coding on your good old PC. It'll be much more efficient in the end. The thing that most "I love console <x>. I don't know how to program but I'm gonna make games for it" people forget is that it takes PATIENCE and dedication to learn programming, especially if you want to create something that remotely resembles a game. Give it at least several months of coding using a book, and if you're still interested after that, check back with us :-)

[lwizardl]

Myself I've been intrested for a few years now. I've taken 2 classes on c++ but couldn't get a chance to do much in it becuase of work not wanting to give me the time off for school so i dropped out and started on my own using this book by Ivor Horton i think his name is "Beginning C++" is the title of the book its like 900 pages and 90% of the code won't compile with MS VC++, borland, or Dev-C++. So now i'm in the market again for a decent book that i can trust and not have to keep looking for errata.

james

[subbie]

my recomendations. Pick up gba coding now. It's straight forward and uses gcc (free compiler).

As well just my take but good Pc coder != good system coder (damn x86 lets you get away with too much that you shouldn't).

As well having a solid way to apply what you're learning makes learning a faster and clearer process.

[Calpis]

I don't know about "Beginning C++" but "Beginning C" by Ivor is a really good book IMO, and examples do compile with both Dev C++ and VC++ as well as the *suggested* GCC. Do you know C already? If not, how are you going to learn C++?! And if you strongly know C, the step up to C++ shouldn't be that difficult because you can already write programs and slowly add in C++ components as you learn them.

[lwizardl]

no The college i have in my area only teaches VB & C++. so i figured c++ was better than vb since my end goal is for games pc/console.

james

[Calpis]

C++ may be a good idea for modern PC development but it's sure not for console games, learn ANSI C the language of choice for most everyone, then try tackling C++. If you don't have a strong computer background, start with Basic like Anti said and work your way up. Expecting to jump into (console) game programming is pretty silly, unless you've have a photographic memory you'll probably need to set aside a few years of your life to get into gear and understand what's involved. Instead of taking a programming language at your college, I'd suggest a computer science course to get you familiar with what your software is actually doing. Depending on the depth of the course you'll at least be ahead of 20% of the professional programmers out there that are still oblivious ;)

[subbie]

C++ may be a good idea for modern PC development but it's sure not for console games, learn ANSI C the language of choice for most everyone, then try tackling C++. If you don't have a strong computer background, start with Basic like Anti said and work your way up. Expecting to jump into (console) game programming is pretty silly, unless you've have a photographic memory you'll probably need to set aside a few years of your life to get into gear and understand what's involved. Instead of taking a programming language at your college, I'd suggest a computer science course to get you familiar with what your software is actually doing. Depending on the depth of the course you'll at least be ahead of 20% of the professional programmers out there that are still oblivious ;)

C++ has become the stanard for game development now. A large margin of the industry is now using C++ and this includes platforms like GBA & DS. Hell even cell phones are completly in C++ (symbian OS is pure C++) for OS Apps (not talking about java).

[Calpis]

C++ has it's strong points but it's hardly necessary for said console development and as far as using official libraries, I don't think it'll be necessary for years to come.

[subbie]

C++ has it's strong points but it's hardly necessary for said console development and as far as using official libraries, I don't think it'll be necessary for years to come.

It's not necessary but if he plans to get into the industry, most studios work in c++ and as well wont hire you unless you have a strong c++ background.

[MexicanGritzTaster]

You can tell that most of the comments here are by non-professionals.

C++ as a language is no worse then C. More often then not, you'll find the underlying core of a C++ to be C.

C++ EXPOSES concepts that aren't in C, but make no mistake that it is no less powerful then it's counterpart. I recommend to anyone to use a C++ compiler, but learn the goods of C and use them intermingled with your C code.

As for the rediculous comment about "x86 lets you get away with too much"... a processor will never let you get away with anything. Just like every other platform, when a hardware level exception is raised, either you can handle it, or you don't. This doesn't differ from any other platform. The matter of this fact is that x86 has been a home consumer computer for long enough, that cheap/free tools and examples are available in multitude more then any other hardware platform... both good and bad code.

[Calpis]

You can tell that the above post is by an ass. You don't sound too professional yourself buddy.

Who said C++ was worse or less powerful than C? Everyone knows that C++ was developed to supersede C, whether it accomplished that directive is up to the individual.

I think I'm being misinterpreted, I'm stating that it's not very feasible for one with no prior C background to start game development in C++. C is far more studied, easier to learn and there are far more resources available to C programmers to get one started in game programming. Additionally, C is a wise choice because it’s officially supported by Sony/Sega/Nintendo... also only as of late has C++ gained its foothold, which simply evolved from a status thing practiced in only some markets. When C# becomes the in language, will you buy into .NET because of it's proclaimed "superiority"?

Anyways, games come down to the programmer’s understanding of the language be it C or C++, their creativity and ingenuity, their libraries and their knowledge of the platform… Using C++ doesn't guarantee you a better or more efficient game nor does it make you a "better" programmer.

[macwest]

whats the easiest ( I know none are easy to program but some have to be easier than others) console to program for. Looking to start game development. I know PC are best to start with.

the hardware I currently own are

GB/GBA Pelican Accessories Games Downloader (256K Flash Cart)
DC VMS with transfer cable

modded systems
GameCube
PS2
Saturn
xbox

James (lwizardl)


Never programed the GB before but in my opion xbox is the easiest to me. It runs off of a modifed DX9 library. ALthough, What I would recomend for any begginer is start on the pc. You can go to a book store and pick up any number of books on game programming. For a begginer look for a book that you feel is easy to understand. and than work your way up.

C/C++ is not the easiest language and if you never have programmed in C get the book C programming for dummies. It is a great book on getting your feet wet in C programming. The book teaches basic fundementals without getting lost in pointers, indirectors or reference to. I know on that subject alone there are complete books and courses for it.

I know I throw around C/C++ loosely since I have been programming for over 20 years and realy what it comes down to is what your client wants and what you need to do to get the job done. be it Ansi C, MFC C++, non MFC C++, C# or anything else. ALthough one thing to note is if doing games stick to a varient of C. I have never heard of any of the modern consoles being done in VB

[AntiPasta]

As for the rediculous comment about "x86 lets you get away with too much"... a processor will never let you get away with anything. Just like every other platform, when a hardware level exception is raised, either you can handle it, or you don't. This doesn't differ from any other platform. The matter of this fact is that x86 has been a home consumer computer for long enough, that cheap/free tools and examples are available in multitude more then any other hardware platform... both good and bad code.

Sounds like your lowest-level experience is C++/Java exception handling I get the impression :smt043
I'm pretty sure he was referring to the instruction set, and if so, he is right. The X86 is by far the easiest system to program in assembly, because it's CISC, just like the Z80 and MC680x0 (architectures you will no doubt run into when doing dev on older consoles/home computers/etc.)
Those architectures were developed to be easily programmed on the machine level, and thus include lots of multi-functional or complicated opcodes. The RISC philosophy, though (now the architecture du jour in all areas but the PC), is based on the idea that less, but more simple, instructions are better.

[WolverineDK]

hmmm am i wrong when i say a dane was in the team who made the C language ?

[subbie]

My views are more skewed twards consoles which now primarly use RISC base processors. My problems with x86 is in memory access. x86 allows for so much unaligned and illegal memory access (read & write) which makes it a bitch to sometimes get other people's code to properly port over to arm or mips processors.

Also I tend to find PC coders are less mindful of resources compaired to console coders.

[haliway]

Subbie it's not true what you said because good pc coders need like all other coders the exact memory and if you believe that a PC game coder can use memory as they want, you're totally wrong. At the moment you wanna develop a professional project, you need to optimize :smt067

[subbie]

haliway,

Pc games dont even come close to matching the limits found in consoles. If you have not notice most studios are now developing on ps2/xbox as their base then making a pc build. The only PC game I have seen in recent times that had a tight handle on resources and still accomplished a lot compaired to other pc games at the time would be max payne 2.

Example of games that over use resources are Battlefield series, Unreal 2k4 (the game eats a wopping 512MB of ram), & Farcry. vbmenu_register("postmenu_64136", true);

[Paulo]

Subbie it's not true what you said because good pc coders need like all other coders the exact memory and if you believe that a PC game coder can use memory as they want, you're totally wrong. At the moment you wanna develop a professional project, you need to optimize :smt067

Have you played sims 2???


My gf made me install it on my pc.... my pc is a 3.0 P4, 1gb crucial ram, 9800pro with the
faster memory, nice hd with lots of space. Half life 2 with allmost everything set to max runs very playable....

Sims 2.... SLOW DOWN ALLL OVER THE PLACE...!!!

[Zilog Jones]

What exactly is the difference between C and C++? I'm currently doing C as part of my degree, but we're still using C++ compilers.

[Topic Archive]

C++ has it's strong points but it's hardly necessary for said console development and as far as using official libraries, I don't think it'll be necessary for years to come.


...Xbox has always been damn near 100% C++

[MexicanGritzTaster]

C++ is a SUPERSET of C (minus some obscure syntax definitions). A C program SHOULD compile unmodified (or very lvery little). But C++ has a few "new/different" ways to do things over C.

For instance:

In C, printing a string to a console, you would use puts() or printf() EX: puts("Hello World"); or printf("%s", "Hello World");

In C++, you CAN do either of those, but now there is a new concept called Streams. It works just like it sounds. The input/output buffers flow like a river to their destination. EX: cout << "Hello" << "World" << endl;

In C, to allocate/deallocate memory, lets say for an array of MonkeyStruct EX: MyMonkeyStructArray = malloc(sizeof(MonkeyStruct) * ArraySize); free(MyMonkeyStructArray);

In C++, the new/delete operators were intoduced (You can still use malloc/free) EX: MyMonkeyStructArray = new MonkeyStruct[ArraySize]; delete [] MyMonkeyStructArray;

In C, you GENERALLY don't have the concept of classes (This isnt true across all variants of C, but almost all), So rather then doing this in C:

Car MyCar; //Assume Car is a simple struct

Car_Turn_On(&MyCar);
Car_Drive(&MyCar);
Car_Park(&MyCar);
Car_Turn_Off(&MyCar);

You would simply do:

Car MyCar; //Assume Car is now a class

MyCar.TurnOn();
MyCar.Drive();
MyCar.Park();
MyCar.TurnOff();

An Last, but not lease.... templates. This is probably the most useful, and the most wrongly used feature of C++. More or less, you can create template classes and functions, leaving out the datatype. Then at compile time, every place the template is used, a clone will be created in memory when used, replacing all templated datatypes with the specified one. EX:

T Add(T First, T Second)
{
return First + Second;
}

T will end up being replaced with... a double, an int, whatever you specify in your code.

I think that is all I really have to add. I am more of a lurker then I am a poster

[Calpis]

...Xbox has always been damn near 100% C++
Xbox isn't a console :P Nor is it by a Japanese corporation specificially of the names I mentioned. I'm thinking of: Saturn, PS, PS2, GC (None of which require or even suggest being a ++ programmer)

[macwest]

Xbox isn't a console :P Nor is it by a Japanese corporation specificially of the names I mentioned. I'm thinking of: Saturn, PS, PS2, GC (None of which require or even suggest being a ++ programmer)

Xbox is as much of a console as a PS2. A game console is nothing more than a very specific set up computer. This allows development to a specific set of hardware and eliminates the infinite possibility on hardware errors a program can produce.

[Topic Archive]

Xbox isn't a console :P


...Oh dear, I do hope you weren't being serious?

[subbie]

Xbox isn't a console :P Nor is it by a Japanese corporation specificially of the names I mentioned. I'm thinking of: Saturn, PS, PS2, GC (None of which require or even suggest being a ++ programmer)

Saturn and Ps1 were too early to do C++.

Its becomming extreamly common for C++ on both Ps2 & GC. You wont find many NA or Euro developers doing Ps2, Xbox or GCN in C. Many Japanese developers (From what I have seen in code) are starting to move to C++ for console stuff as well.

I'm no Die hard C++ fan. Hell I was spewing "C for life" when I started in the industry but over time I have adopted to work completly in C++ which a majority of the industry is doing.

[Calpis]

...Oh dear, I do hope you weren't being serious?
Yes, sticking one's tongue out usually indicates sincerity... But seriously I'll go off on a tanget and say that arguably Xbox has half the soul as other consoles of this generation, due to it's absenses of lets say "console nuance."


Xbox is as much of a console as a PS2. A game console is nothing more than a very specific set up computer. This allows development to a specific set of hardware and eliminates the infinite possibility on hardware errors a program can produce.
Really? I was under the impression it was an embedded Pentium III personal computer with stock IDE drives, NVidia GPU, bootstraps like a PC into a Microsoft kernal, Microsoft API, AGP PCI and ISA bus, integrated network device, USB controllers, a FAT file system for it's hard drive... hmm sounds like conventional console to me.

When writing my previous posts I wasn't taking Xbox into account, please disregard my posts about Xbox because we all know it's next to impossible to develop an Xbox game without C++...

To recap what I was actually saying (these are facts):

1) C is almost necessary for serious development on 32bit+ archetectures, if he chooses to do Saturn/PSX, C++ isn't necessarily an option nor is it with some early PS2 tools
2) C++ is not required by any of the above consoles for obvious reasons (this is a fact)
3) C++ knowledge is obviously preferred by industry employers, but again NOT NECESSARY FOR AMATEUR DEVELOPMENT.
4) C++ being the North American/European industry language doesn't mean it is in Japan where the majority of the quality games are still developed and often in C.

Again, in case the above was missed, I'm not fighting C++. I'm saying that simply C is a better choice for a beginning developer without experience in even Basic. C may be slowly being phased out (in the industry) but obviously C is the language of choice for previous generation consoles and it's very possible to put out a decent game in C on even yes, Xbox. Watch out though you may be frowned upon by the high and mighty C++ loving North American/European developer.

[Topic Archive]

When writing my previous posts I wasn't taking Xbox into account, please disregard my posts about Xbox because we all know it's next to impossible to develop an Xbox game without C++...


Lol, ahhhhh haaaa, so I presume we can disregard the previous statement that you made, being as Xbox Game Development has been going on for the last five years :P?

...Originally Posted by Kyuusaku

"C++ has it's strong points but it's hardly necessary for said console development and as far as using official libraries, I don't think it'll be necessary for years to come."

[Calpis]

I was being facetious if you didn't notice in the first quote, the contradiction is intended.

[Topic Archive]

I was being facetious if you didn't notice in the first quote, the contradiction is intended.


...I believe yer ;)

[haliway]

Subbie i really agree with you for those examples but if you watch the "only for pc" games, you can see that optimize is not a dream. The big difference also in all difference is multiple pc settings with a lot of cards and a lot of processors. A console is an unique setting and it's really more easier to develop a console game that pc games not because of libraries but because of not having bugs because of user settings. It's true that Developers on console often use more optimization than pc coders but some guys still search to have the better result. I don't think that Doom3 uses the complete memory for nothing and Unreal 2K4 it's the same. Try to have the same result on console. A friend that began to work on Xbox next devkit explained me that to optimize Ram of graphics card Microsoft pushed a Big cache to work on texture modeling and working, and he said that it's true that bad pc games used to take all memory for nothing but blockbusters not really comparing to what they can produce.

[subbie]

Subbie i really agree with you for those examples but if you watch the "only for pc" games, you can see that optimize is not a dream. The big difference also in all difference is multiple pc settings with a lot of cards and a lot of processors. A console is an unique setting and it's really more easier to develop a console game that pc games not because of libraries but because of not having bugs because of user settings. It's true that Developers on console often use more optimization than pc coders but some guys still search to have the better result. I don't think that Doom3 uses the complete memory for nothing and Unreal 2K4 it's the same. Try to have the same result on console. A friend that began to work on Xbox next devkit explained me that to optimize Ram of graphics card Microsoft pushed a Big cache to work on texture modeling and working, and he said that it's true that bad pc games used to take all memory for nothing but blockbusters not really comparing to what they can produce.

I don't deny some pc games do optimise extreamly well and a lot of the alpha to beta phase in development is wasted over compatibility issues. Hell I know the pain thanks to sony (*). I just dont see a majority of pc only games being coded to properly manage resources. Sure Unreal 2k4 used so much ram for good purpose (crazy high res textures) but I still think they should have taken better controll of the resources.

Its my personal opinion that if you work on hardware with strong imposed limits you learn to work better at optimising everything you can, and when you get moved up to something with even more resources to work with, your more then likly to better use thoes resources insted of wasting them.

Interesting note on Unreal2k4. Did you know that out of the 5.5GB of installed files, 3+GB of that is only textures. The level data takes up about 1.4GB. :)


(*) If you develope a comercial ps1 game right now. You have to make it compatible with the old rev of ps1, the newer rev ps1 (not the mini but model 5000 and up) & ps2. Tis loads of fun. :(

[idrougge]

Sounds like your lowest-level experience is C++/Java exception handling I get the impression :smt043
I'm pretty sure he was referring to the instruction set, and if so, he is right. The X86 is by far the easiest system to program in assembly, because it's CISC, just like the Z80 and MC680x0 (architectures you will no doubt run into when doing dev on older consoles/home computers/etc.)
Those architectures were developed to be easily programmed on the machine level, and thus include lots of multi-functional or complicated opcodes. The RISC philosophy, though (now the architecture du jour in all areas but the PC), is based on the idea that less, but more simple, instructions are better.

Most assembler programmers hate the x86, only people weaned on that architecture find it comprehensible.
Also, programming in asm on a modern x86 is horrible, due to the idiosynchracies between different revisions (Pentium II/III/IV/AMD this and that). Once you've optimised your code for one processor, it's gone backwards on the other. Especially considering the massive pipelining and complex innards beneath the antiquated x86 instruction repertoir.

[lwizardl]

thanks for all the great information. myself I was thinking about starting with a few books on c/c++ programming and then try making somethings for xbox or gba.

any certain books I should have in my collection and that will compile on bloodshed dev-c++ ? I have a few but not sure i trust them (kinda old). and the Ivor horton book i had to have my teacher at KCC (kellogg Community College in BC Michigan) fix a few of the things in the beginning of the book to get them to compile correctly. I just couldn't figure the issue out so she helped me with it. and after about 2 months of it constant needing help to fix the examples in the book I gave up, and now I'm ready to try again.

james

[ASSEMbler]

Gameboy. Z80 rules.

[AntiPasta]

subbie: are there many incompatibilities between the different revisions of PS1 hardware? I have written numerous simple programs on the PSX, running at the lowest level (written in R3K asm and blasting primitives to the GPU by I/O or DMA), but I have never run into anything unusual and I've run my code on a 7501, 5500 and blue PAL debug... but then I never use SPU, MDEC, GTE or interrupts.

[Omar]

The language doesn't matter, the platform doesn't matter. Great games are being made in C, C++, Delphi or other languages. It's tiring to see people all over the place asking what's the difference and what the best between C and C++. What matter is YOUR KNOWLEDGE and YOUR EXPERIENCE at programming, understanding machine concept, algorithms, proper software archictecturing, project vision.

As a matter of fact, the JAK & DEXTER series of games are made using a custom language and compiler (no C/C++). C/C++ are just tools. Then there's a big gap between using the tools and using the tools right.

Don't ask yourself question. DO IT. DO SOMETHING. DO A PROJECT, STICK TO IT, FINISH IT. Whatever the language, even it's not perfect (it's never perfect), this is the best and only way to learn game programming.

You can make a great and well optimized game on the PC. Just set yourself limits and learn to stick to them, or else you won't learn to find alternatives and tricks to improve your software. Microsoft themselve suggest to work on PC with similar specs as a XBOX (limit yourself to 64 MB RAM, Nvidia card of the same generation) and you can get a good enough prototyping machine.

Developping for PC has two distincts advantage compared to consoles, I would say:

A. Must easier, cheaper, faster, better tools. This is a good point when it comes to doing amator development or making a budget game. Compared to PC, consoles tools are often a pain to work with.

B. Better specs allows for higher-level conception, development of generic end-user tools (editors...), while consoles' lower specs tends to limit the wideness of your game development.

Not saying that PC games are better. In fact, I prefer consoles games. But complex combinatory (Sim 2) and evolving games (Half Life) are mainly to be found on PC.

[subbie]

subbie: are there many incompatibilities between the different revisions of PS1 hardware? I have written numerous simple programs on the PSX, running at the lowest level (written in R3K asm and blasting primitives to the GPU by I/O or DMA), but I have never run into anything unusual and I've run my code on a 7501, 5500 and blue PAL debug... but then I never use SPU, MDEC, GTE or interrupts.

There is a problem/difference in the first model ps1 and the revisions after it. If i remember correctly the GPU on the first model is actualy slower then the revisions (too many times I would get slow downs from drawing a lot of 2d sprites where the updated systems had no problem). As well the CD drive is horible on the first model so you need to be careful sometimes in how you deal with the cd drive.

Wit the ps2 I am not sure what is different but there are times where we had bugs from things being fine on the ps1 but the ps2 not liking them.

[idrougge]

As a matter of fact, the JAK & DEXTER series of games are made using a custom language and compiler (no C/C++). C/C++ are just tools. Then there's a big gap between using the tools and using the tools right.

I thought they were done in Lisp...
Good point about J&D, though, I thought of mentioning that while reading the thread, too.

[Omar]

I thought they were done in Lisp...
I'm not sure but I thought it was some Lisp-ish language, meaning they based the core development paradigm on Lisp, but modified it in various way.

[AntiPasta]

I imagine they had a *very* good reason to adapt a LISP compiler, not only to their own wishes, but also to run on the EE and interact with the PS2 hardware... it's just that I can't think of any. Unless they all studied at a university that tought them all LISP and nothing else (like the Uni of utrecht)

[Omar]

The lead programmer was a Lisp fanboy, hence why.

[subbie]

Hmm. He could say **** all languages and write his own.

*bangs his head over the 2 hours spent today to do file include on a script engine*

[hl718]

There is a problem/difference in the first model ps1 and the revisions after it. If i remember correctly the GPU on the first model is actualy slower then the revisions (too many times I would get slow downs from drawing a lot of 2d sprites where the updated systems had no problem). As well the CD drive is horible on the first model so you need to be careful sometimes in how you deal with the cd drive.

Wit the ps2 I am not sure what is different but there are times where we had bugs from things being fine on the ps1 but the ps2 not liking them.

There were even issues going from PSX to PSone as Square unceremoniously found out with one of its classics releases (the double pack with CT). One disc worked fine, the other would only boot properly in a PSX. Would fail in a PSone.

-hl718

[cdoty]

As a matter of fact, the JAK & DEXTER series of games are made using a custom language and compiler (no C/C++). C/C++ are just tools. Then there's a big gap between using the tools and using the tools right.


Somewhere down in the source for Jak & Dexter, there is some C or ASM code that interfaces with the SDK or hardware.