sega saturn 20pin modchip info

[qabbalist]

http://www.crazynation.org/SEGA/Saturn/cd_tech.htm

i stumbled across this info while looking for 20pin modchip install mod

[APE]

Its well known at this point.

[APE]

Because I want to bump this to get it some attention:

Due to what is probably my lack of higher engineering experience I'm having trouble figuring this all out:
http://www.segastyle.com/model1Alt.html

Clearly this isn't a difficult guide to follow. I'm able to piece together what edge/connector pin goes to what pin on what component without too much trouble. Datasheets are easily found for the ICs on the modchip being modified in that guide however they differ slightly to the modchip in front of me - though they are functionally equivalent.

However what I'm not quite able to piece together is what all of those components are doing in terms of modchippery. Ex. clock, data strobe, etc as OP's URL attempts to diagram with the caveat that the 21 pin information is unconfirmed and clearly incomplete. This wouldn't be a problem on its own as pure curiosity is great but I'm not going nuts over this purely for curiosity's sake.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b373/APE992/SSIC7Atopside.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b373/APE992/SSIC7Asolderside.jpg

The SSIC7A, an older revision of the modchip used in the aforementioned guide. There are more components than the 8B and the 7A relies entirely upon through hole components where as the 8B uses mostly surface mount components.

The greater number of components increases the complexity of the modchip and as a result I'm not able to take the information I've pieced together and apply it directly to the 7A.

My question: am I overthinking things or is it as simple as tracing the same connector/gold finger connections to their destination and wiring it up in the same fashion completely ignoring that the components are different?

[Druid II]

I think the first 21-to-20-pin guide came from a guy who simply compared the pinouts and rewired things accordingly, but don't quote me on that. The decade-old thread is still up at segaxtreme though.

[APE]

Probably as it was exactly what I was initially trying to do. Ideally I should strip the board of components, photograph both sides and draw up a schematic. With that modifying the PCB for 20 pin usage and having them actually made would be a snap albeit a steep price just to get started.

And then there is the matter of dumping the PIC which is likely locked down to prevent it from being dumped. Acid decapping sounds fine and dandy - if I had the equipment.

[Bad_Ad84]

You just need to trace what pins are swapped. Most of the pins are directly connected, so it doesnt matter what is actually on that pin. The only important pins are the non directly connected. you just need to figure out about 5-6 pin swaps.

I still intend to do this with the rob webb chips when I get time, shouldnt be very difficult.

[fasman]

I dont know if this will any use to any one, but Ive got a old, Saturn mod, it only uses two ic's to work(One a PIC other I cant make out), and has connectors for both 21 pin and 20 pin.

At very least you can desolder everything and and visially or with a continuity meter find out what pins goes where(20 to 21 pin), but considering how basic it is maybe some one can dump the PIC, and reverse engineer it into something we can actually build ourselves using a FPGA and custom PCB....

I can send it to who ever thinks they can use it.

PS Didnt get this one from the site but found it in a old broken Saturn...

Edit: will upload pics tonight

[Bad_Ad84]

I'd be happy to look at it. Willing to return it if there's no progress.

But the PIC is likely locked/protected.

Also, you wouldn't need a FPGA...

[fasman]

I'd be happy to look at it. Willing to return it if there's no progress.

But the PIC is likely locked/protected.

Also, you wouldn't need a FPGA...

Nice, I will upload pictures tonight, it would be nice if it isnt locked or protected :), and I will post it for you sometime next week if you still want it.

Your right it would probably wont need a FPGA, but I think with bottom end FPGA's getting cheaper, it might be better just to have a single chip solution, but to be honest I dont know a thing about how these work or what the second IC actually does :shrug:

PS it would be great if we could make our own Saturn mods :P

[Bad_Ad84]

I agree, it would be a good solution.

Even if the chip is locked, assuming only 1 chip is programmed (or needs dumping) we could probably fund raise enough to get the chip decapped and read. Making DIY saturn mods available.

Anyway, all speculation until I see the mod you have,

[fasman]

Here you go:

http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h398/fasmanza/SS%20MOD/DSCN0683.jpg
http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h398/fasmanza/SS%20MOD/DSCN0684.jpg
http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h398/fasmanza/SS%20MOD/DSCN0685.jpg
http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h398/fasmanza/SS%20MOD/DSCN0686.jpg

Chips name is 7004
IC1: pic16C54A
IC2: ICP 22cv10ap
ctq10711
708FU -25

Other text: SS CD RN??

[Bad_Ad84]

Extremely easy to trace which pins will need moving and where to.

If you wouldnt mine sending me it, I will test on a rob webb chip and post the details for everyone.

[APE]

Simple and with fewer parts than the SSIC line, I like it.

[fasman]

Good to hear, just PM me a address and I will send it on Monday ,will probably take a week or two to get to you :)

[l_oliveira]

I have an bucket full of malfunctioning SS modchips. I have a lot of early chips, including some of the type Fasman posted. :shrug:

[Bad_Ad84]

Want rid of them? :)

[l_oliveira]

Want rid of them? :)

As they're malfunctioning items I don't think it's appropriate to sell.

Anyway we can keep talking on PM about them. :nod:

At the moment I lack proper tools to take an decent picture of it... :shrug:

Before people start sending PMs regarding it, I shall mention again, they're faulty and been sitting on a ice cream pot for more than 10 years now:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-F9NIX_n9rgI/TweN_rcko8I/AAAAAAAAEDE/UOhIv4QhCKY/s800/TV2012010622120000.jpg

At best I think they would be useful for reverse engineering. :shrug:

[Druid II]

I wouldn't mind getting some of those to tinker around with either (if you'd get rid of them for shipping price only).

[qabbalist]

Extremely easy to trace which pins will need moving and where to.

If you wouldnt mine sending me it, I will test on a rob webb chip and post the details for everyone.


any progress at all with rob's chip/info on these older chips?

[fasman]

Shipped the chip last week to Bad AD but it will probably take another 1-3 weeks to get to him from South Africa...

[Calpis]

Only one MUX of the '157 is used so that's the minute difference with 22V10 types. The normal 16V8 logic isn't very complicated (but it is secure too), I've determined (logically, not empirically) that it implements a 4 bit parallel-load SR and 2 bit counter for seamless reloading, I forget what the other two outputs are for... The PIC controlled (IIRC) MUX just selects between the PIC and drive data. A parallel interface is required since the PIC isn't nearly fast enough to serialize the data, it can barely keep up as is.

Decapping the PIC really isn't necessary, plus the decapping is only the start of that process, it needs to be doped and photographed, transcribed and reverified, then you need someone smart to figure out the decoding scheme from the rest of the layout. It's quite a process even when things go smoothly. Since basically all that's needed is the data stream and timing, the only real requirement is a clever person, their computer and some parallel I/O (parallel port, Arduino or whatever) to coax the data out of the modchip.

[neomili]

Sorry for my english but... this is a mod chip for sega saturn model 1 20 pins??? :O

[Bad_Ad84]

Chip arrived.

Will look into converting a "rob webb" chip soon and post information as I have it.

[Mystical]

Chip arrived.

Will look into converting a "rob webb" chip soon and post information as I have it.

cool, let us know how you get on

[fasman]

Chip arrived.

Will look into converting a "rob webb" chip soon and post information as I have it.

Glad it finally arrived, my post office has been full of @@#$@#$ the last few weeks.

[Vyothric]

Any update on this?

[Bad_Ad84]

Its sitting in my "to do pile"

I currently have a lot of work on from various people/forums. I have some model 1's to look at soon and I have no chips for them (but do have the console goods style). So when I look at those, I will test the theory then.

[APE]

I recently converted the SSIC8A for someone - took something like 3 hours due to complications from ribbons (gotta be a better way to interface it). PITA with that cheap, flexing PCB but I could probably tackle the 7Bs I've got on hand if someone were to offer a price worth my time.

[Bad_Ad84]

My plan is to not mod the chip itself, but to just swap the signals on the 2 ribbon cables.

[chandler_455]

I have the same chip that Ape has I was wondering if I could get some install help, It was installed in the console and only works half way (console was finicky about discs) I took it out It now boots originals and cd-r through swap trick. With the chip in it boots originals most of the time and hardly ever boots cd-rs, The console also has US/JP switch. The chip only has 5v wire no signal wire. Does that chip need a signal wire thanks :)

[DarkSynbios]

Hello guys!

I am looking for ribbon cable 20 pin for sega saturn model 1. Its any store can sell of them or any solution can help me?

Thank you ^^

[Druid II]

Use a 21 pin one and cut off one of its legs. That's what I did.

[bart_simpson]

Where would you buy the sockets for the ribbion cable? if you can build these mod chips?

[DarkSynbios]

Use a 21 pin one and cut off one of its legs. That's what I did.
Thank you my friend! I will do this too! ;)

[Druid II]

Where would you buy the sockets for the ribbion cable? if you can build these mod chips?

This is something I'm wondering too, I've been looking but only found them for stupid prices due to lack of availability, and I had to end up cannibalizing broken chips for parts.
They are called 20/21pin THT vertical FFC connectors by the way - maybe someone has more luck finding them.

[qabbalist]

This is something I'm wondering too, I've been looking but only found them for stupid prices due to lack of availability, and I had to end up cannibalizing broken chips for parts.
They are called 20/21pin THT vertical FFC connectors by the way - maybe someone has more luck finding them.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=ffc%2020%20pin&clk_rvr_id=353348838777&adpos=1s2&MT_ID=10&crlp=10387080277_2113181&tt_encode=raw&keyword=ffc+20+pin&geo_id=32101

pricing sux but if you need them 20pin connectors and theres the 20pin ribbon cables

[Druid II]

Those use SMD contacts, not THT. You'd have to bend the pins on it so they fit through the holes.

[cybdyn]

very interesting if someone discover how this mod chip works...

[bart_simpson]

Would hopefully make cheap chips? i hope.

[APE]

very interesting if someone discover how this mod chip works...

Its known. Just don't think anyone in a position to put all the pieces of the puzzle together finds the return on the investment worth their time. Hell, I'd do it if I had the cash but I like doing things for the sake of doing them. The chips would probably have to cost more than $40 a pop as well making them less cost effective than existing sources. Then again if one could make a chip with dual 20/21 pin support as well as "dummy proof" 64pin support AND improved Sanyo support (I've found all chips support the Sanyo Saturns but they have odd behaviors to get the damn things to run discs) you might get away with $50-60 chips until scale can bring the price down.


Would hopefully make cheap chips? i hope.

Not at first.

[Calpis]

Pretty sure I can clone it, I already started a long while back. There isn't a huge amount of motivation to work on it though since modchips are available, and cheap. All of them are just about identical logically so clone one, clone them all.

[cybdyn]

i ment, in what place we need cheat? what signals response for security? can you show me this on the signal diagam?

[APE]

My understanding is that the modchip feeds the system the security ring data giving it the OK to boot the disc as an authenticated original.

[cybdyn]

i know, but what exact, any details, any points in diagram.

i saw there is serial protocol. i suggest CPLD helps capture signals to gpoup and genereate signal for calling mcu, then mcu put or transfer sequence with right code/level to data bus.
i asked cause its not standart prtocol, maybe someone know about it well.

also it is useful if some check what function of pins used in modchips. there are pins for special functions in mcu's - INT, RX, TX, or simple GPIO

[Druid II]

i know, but what exact, any details, any points in diagram.

i saw there is serial protocol. i suggest CPLD helps capture signals to gpoup and genereate signal for calling mcu, then mcu put or transfer sequence with right code/level to data bus.
i asked cause its not standart prtocol, maybe someone know about it well.

also it is useful if some check what function of pins used in modchips. there are pins for special functions in mcu's - INT, RX, TX, or simple GPIO

The first post in the topic has just that, doesn't it?

[Calpis]

I think it's pretty self explanatory but the PIC is used as a lookup table for the security data. Everything is done through GPIO... The PIC at ~2 MIPs is not nearly fast enough to carry out ~8 MHz bus operations on its own so the GAL is configured as a state machine with 4-bit shift register. The multiplexer simply selects between the CD data and faked security data.

[cybdyn]

i saw VA13 scm, its very useful to know right names of signals. very good scheme))

so, may some one can make primitive scheme of mode chip.

[qabbalist]

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/6936/snewchips.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/31/snewchips.jpg/)

A new version like this is being worked on. It has connectors for 20pin and 21pin. Also has the crystal, so only a 5v wire is needed. I've tested the prototype in the photo on a 20pin V-Saturn and it worked perfect. It needs testing on other Saturn models, then it will go to production in a few months hopefully (robs words)


link to post

http://segaxtreme.net/community/topic/16348-strange-saturn-mod-chip/

[Calpis]

Eh, it's just a new PCB with the exact same poor design. There are better designs out there with precisely two chips and decoupling capacitors, that's it. A new modchip should at the very least match that old logic--meaning eliminate the '157, it shouldn't have any level-shifting or delay hacks and it sure shouldn't have a redundant oscillator. Using a newer/more available MCU could relax the code as well, but I highly suspect that the code is with the modchip manufacturer, not Rob.

If anyone wants to work on actually RE'ing the modchip let me know. I'm buying an adapter to run test vectors, hopefully I'll be ready to work on it when it arrives in late July.

[Druid II]

The only two-chip designs I tried didn't have good compatibility though.

[APE]

If anyone wants to work on actually RE'ing the modchip let me know. I'm buying an adapter to run test vectors, hopefully I'll be ready to work on it when it arrives in late July.

I'd offer but I'm not sure how much help I'd be.

[Zer0-2k11]

Just putting a note out there if people need help if there having any problems with the mod on a model 2 Sega Style/Racket Boy Chip to fit in a model 1 ill be glad to help theres some problems i ran into and fixed. these problems i ran into that are not on the trouble-shooting page on sega style but was able to fix. You could get one of the Sega style/racket-boy chips and alternate it with a guide from Sega style. i just did my US model 1 Saturn (20 Pin Connector) not too long ago and ran into a couple minor problems. may take some time but it works perfectly in the end. if there's any problems you would run into that doesn't show in the trouble shooting page. just shoot me a pm or post i might be able to help out.

[Druid II]

Or you can just get one of the new Consolegoods chip which works on both 20 and 21pin drives.

[Zer0-2k11]

didn't they take the mod-chips off they're catalog due to paypal issues?. i was considering that mod chip as well. but hey if you run into the problem where you can only get a Sega Style/Racket-Boy chip and modding it for a model 1. i can probably help out

[Druid II]

They still sell them, just off the catalog.

[APE]

I just received a batch of ~22 myself though they're not the same chip as Racketboy (SSIC8B IIRC) or what Robb Webb stocks. Bit more difficult to modify as there is no easy to use guide out there but totally possible.

[Druid II]

Which ones? If they are types I have not yet tested, I'd buy a few.

[Trenton_net]

Full Disclosure: I sell/stock Saturn chips on demand.

Forgive me for saying so, but getting special chips fabricated seems expensive. Especially considering how 20-pin Saturns aren't exactly a big market. If there was big money to be had, they would still be pumping 20-pin compatible units out. I mean, I've seen loads of chips with the 20-pin side left empty. I'm sure it's done for profit reasons, or they would include it for people.

FYI - If he is fabricating chips, I do plan to get more in. As well, I can likely price match any sellers chips (though I never had to, since I beat everyone by a wide margin).

Update: Is there any market for replacement CD-ROM lenses, controller cables (Unwired), power supplies, and such? Or would I be wasting my time on those you guys think? I never get asked about those kinds of things, so I naturally thought they weren’t sellers.

[television2000]

Full Disclosure: I sell/stock Saturn chips on demand.
Update: Is there any market for replacement CD-ROM lenses, controller cables (Unwired), power supplies, and such? Or would I be wasting my time on those you guys think? I never get asked about those kinds of things, so I naturally thought they weren’t sellers.

Are you kidding ? DO IT NOW !!
Honestly though the main cases of saturn failure are due CD lenses/motor wear. Most of the faulty units sold on ebay or otherwise are due to this issue (and PSU failure as well). Not to mention the 100V - 220V mods that can be done.

There is profit to be made and believe me when I say, go for it.
I know I want some. ;)

[Druid II]

Full Disclosure: I sell/stock Saturn chips on demand.

Forgive me for saying so, but getting special chips fabricated seems expensive. Especially considering how 20-pin Saturns aren't exactly a big market. If there was big money to be had, they would still be pumping 20-pin compatible units out. I mean, I've seen loads of chips with the 20-pin side left empty. I'm sure it's done for profit reasons, or they would include it for people.

FYI - If he is fabricating chips, I do plan to get more in. As well, I can likely price match any sellers chips (though I never had to, since I beat everyone by a wide margin).

Update: Is there any market for replacement CD-ROM lenses, controller cables (Unwired), power supplies, and such? Or would I be wasting my time on those you guys think? I never get asked about those kinds of things, so I naturally thought they weren’t sellers.

I'm sure the 20pin slots are unpopulated because by the time those old chips were designed, the 21pin machines were much more common. I imagine most of the chips were made in china, and the hongkong saturns seldom had 20pin drives too.

I'm sure there would be market for extra components, the only problem is that there were many different board revisions and not all parts are compatible with each one. Also, it's usually not worth getting new parts because you can often get an entire replacement console cheaper.

Personally, I'd need a 64pin cd board, if you have one spare.

[APE]

My personal disclosure: I buy almost exclusively from Trenton_net. His prices are amazing bar none however they have occasionally come with bad ribbons and bad power wires so be prepared to do some soldering and ribbon sourcing. As far as I can recall all chips I've received have worked albeit some are pickier than others with Sanyo Saturns.


Which ones? If they are types I have not yet tested, I'd buy a few.

Probably be easier to know what you've tested but I know I have the SSIC7A and HK-3; possibly more but I don't have the parcel with the batch I just purchased on hand either. I'll probably end up reverse engineering a chip for kicks assuming this semester of digital logic proves useful.

[Jord9622]

http://www.crazynation.org/SEGA/Saturn/cd_tech.htm

i stumbled across this info while looking for 20pin modchip install mod



SEGA STYLE is a fantastic online store!!!!! (Link Above) I buy from them a lot!!!!

[Trenton_net]

I'm sure there would be market for extra components, the only problem is that there were many different board revisions and not all parts are compatible with each one. Also, it's usually not worth getting new parts because you can often get an entire replacement console cheaper.

Personally, I'd need a 64pin cd board, if you have one spare.

This is what I figured personally. Why spend money on a new laser assembly when you might as well just get the real console and everything that comes with it? Especially, as you correctly pointed out, when there are so many revisions? Anyway, these are the kinds of things I am talking about:

Full Assembly:
http://www.supercom32.net/Personal/Random/CD-ROM1.jpg

Just the Lenses (About 50% cheaper than the full assembly):
http://www.supercom32.net/Personal/Random/CD-ROM2.jpg

Being an electronics layman, I don't really know much about these things or what models they would be compatible with. I figure no matter how cheap I could get these in for, shipping from China would kill it for most people. For the weight, size, shipping, original cost, technical knowledge needed to install, I figure people would rather just get another used Saturn and be done with it.

[Bad_Ad84]

I could probably do with a few too, how about you work out a price and then see if people are interested or not - as thats going to be the deciding factor.

[retro]

He's right - they're not cheap. I was going to grab some ages ago. Plus the Chinese ones can be very hit and miss - I've seen a LOT of replacement lasers die a lot quicker than the originals.

The main problem with lasers is that if they're not correctly calibrated, they need special equipment (including the original alignment CD) to set up correctly. Blindly twiddling pots is a sure way to kill the diode fast.

[APE]

He's right - they're not cheap. I was going to grab some ages ago. Plus the Chinese ones can be very hit and miss - I've seen a LOT of replacement lasers die a lot quicker than the originals.

The main problem with lasers is that if they're not correctly calibrated, they need special equipment (including the original alignment CD) to set up correctly. Blindly twiddling pots is a sure way to kill the diode fast.

Indeed it is but where in the hell would I find the alignment CD?

[Superrayman3]

They still sell them, just off the catalog.
How do you go about getting one off the catalog?

[Bad_Ad84]

email him

Also, he now has the 20/21 pin chips

[Superrayman3]

email him

Also, he now has the 20/21 pin chips
Okay how much are they and how would I pay for it? would I just send him a PP payment as a gift or how does it work?

[Druid II]

Last time I asked him about it, he said 16Ł will be the final price, but you should ask him directly.

[Superrayman3]

Last time I asked him about it, he said 16Ł will be the final price, but you should ask him directly.
Ok I'll ask him in the next few days now I just need to figure out how to pay for it.

[fasman]

Dropped Trenton a PM would love to get some of those, as it will probably work out cheaper than shipping yet another console from the US/UK only to find the laser died in the post :/