PayPal Claim

[Japan-Games.com]

Now that I have your attention...heh

I just had a claim but on a couple of payments (2 from the same buyer which makes the entire purchase) for "unauthorized use". This is the first time that I've seen this type of claim. Does anyone have any experience with it before I make my case to PayPal?

The short version of the story is that a long-time customer is backing out of a payment. She fell on some hard time and became a bit erratic. After no payment for about 6 months she finally came through with the payment, received the items, then filed the unauthorized use claim the next day. The package was shipped via EMS with tracking showing it going to her apartment.

I'm pretty sure the situation is this..... She used a gift payment to save herself the fees, then realized after that she can't file a regular claim on a gift (item not received/described properly wouldn't apply). So she's going all in and trying to say that she never authorized the payment which is probably the only thing she can do at this point. She sent me a couple of emails saying she needed an invoice and proof that we had a transaction. I'm guessing her first plan was to change the payment from a gift to a transaction, then use the claim tools there. I just ignored the emails when I got them. She even sent one again an hour before she made the claim that someone else was using her account....heh.

We have a history of payments over a period of years. I even have custom printed shipping labels from Japan Post with her name and address which is what I used this time. The records will show that a payment was made and an item was shipped and received then a claim filed the next day. So I guess she's saying that someone else hacked into her account and made a payment for her....? heh She really is desperate.

I have proof of pretty much everything but I'm not sure how the gift payment will come into play. She has a history of dong this despite my objections. I can't imagine that PayPal will give her her money back because of some technicality where breaking the rules before will actually help her out in the unauthorized use claim. But then again it's PayPal and anything is possible.

If anyone has ever dealt with this kind of claim I'd appreciate any advice you might have before I put down my information in writing to PayPal.

Thanks!

[Cooleo]

99% of Cases are dealt with by the PayPal robot, Chances are, She will get a refund. PayPal sucks for sellers :( I've had many claims in my store due to similar circumstances and haven't won one. I've had to go the legal route to re-obtain my goods, as It can be passed off as receiving goods via deception (I don't know the Japanese equivalent).

[Trenton_net]

Wow. Just wow. Really? She tried to get information from you after she tried to charge you back? (Or maybe I read that wrong?)

[Cyantist]

Why didn't she just say she couldn't pay? If she was a long time buyer it wasn't like you were going to stop selling to her in the future or anything.

[geluda]

Is it even possible for you to charge her card via PayPal without her authorization? That would require you having access to her card details, if people make a payment via PayPal they have to manually send the payment them selves.

[ASSEMbler]

The only solution is to call a person at paypal and ask them to investigate.

They will refund her the money. You will be screwed.

It's all part of the high costs of doing business with paypal.

What can you do?

Send her to collections for the money due. This will ruin her credit.

[subbie]

I though when you send gift there isn't much you can do about getting funds back unless you can show/prove an unauthorized user used the account. Far as I know paypal seems to keep an eye on IPs logging into your account. So i'm not sure where she has a leg to stand on.

[Japan-Games.com]

Wow. Just wow. Really? She tried to get information from you after she tried to charge you back? (Or maybe I read that wrong?)

No, I think she tried to change the payment from a gift to a transaction, and from there she probably would have tried to make a claim like item not received or damages (SNAD). When that didn't work she tried the unauthorized use.

I'm going to sit on it a day or so before responding. With PayPal people tend to slit their own throats because they don't know the rules. I've never had a claim like this so I'm heading into uncharted waters. What's really strange is that there is no information from her end except that it was unauthorized use so I'm going to have to give all of my information and from there maybe she can poke some holes. Usually with a claim it's the other way around.

Logically it seems she doesn't have much to stand on but logic doesn't always come into play. We have a long history of transactions. A package was sent to her address on file days after a payment was made from her account. I'm not sure how she can explain that other than to say someone bought something from her account and sent it to her house without her knowing. If they log IPs then that's good. And since she's such a dingbat I doubt she did anything like change her login or password or bank account which is what someone would do if they were hacking and stealing.

...but we'll see how it goes...heh

[GaijinPunch]

About how much was it for? That sucks!

[hugh]

Do you have any documentation that shows that she actually got the item(s)? If so, that's a plus on your side. Just say you want the item(s) back.

=hugh

[ASSEMbler]

If it's stateside I would possibly be willing to buy the debt off you and send it to collections myself.

[Japan-Games.com]

Asembler...sure, I could do that....

There is delivery confirmation. I sent a link to a scan showing the person actually signing for the package with the address. It is the property manager of the condo she lives in.

It's in PayPal's hands now. I give my odds at 1 in 3. She might be able to weasel out since the payment has no address listed with it. But she's had the same address for years and I'm sure PayPal has a record of it even if it's not on that specific payment. She's obviously doing all of this after the fact so I doubt she went in and changed her address. I'm wondering how much investigation PayPal does, for example seeing if she changed her login or password after she realized her account was....ummm....."hacked" heh. I've heard people talk of IP tracking but I can't find anything specific from PayPal where they say they do this.

She also sent me two bills (payment requests) via PayPal after she paid saying she paid too much and she is owed a partial refund. I told her the extra amount would go towards the shipping price. I got the second request about an hour and 15 minutes before I got the "non authorized use" claim. I've asked PayPal when she says she was hacked because she's sending me payment requests with notes talking about the payment in question. If she's stupid and says she's just been hacked without realizing she's sent the requests then that might help.

Finally, her partner is her sister and her sister sometimes sends emails or makes payments. In an odd way they might win if her sister can prove she made the payment and she's not the authorized user. In that sense the non-authorized user is actually turning herself in...heh.

[GaijinPunch]

Have you perhaps asked her to send the shit back or is the shipping cost prohibitive?

[Bad_Ad84]

Unfortunately your proof of delivery means nothing on a gift payment. Gifts are not covered by paypal and are not supposed to be users for goods payments.

However, she may have screwed herself by sending you invoice requests IF it was done through the paypal site. If it was just email, they will not care as they can't accept that as proof as emails can be forged.

[Japan-Games.com]

Yeah, she sent the invoice through the PayPal system and specifically referenced the payment she made by the exact amount. She did it twice. One good thing is that she waited 11 days after the payment was made to file the claim. If her account has other activity during that time she will be hard pressed to explain how she didn't notice two payment were made from her account.

I'm not exactly sure how the gift payment will come into play. The issue is that she's saying she did not send the payment. That is what PayPal is investigating. Obviously I'm in a shitty spot since I have to prove she knowingly sent a payment because it was really for a transaction. PayPal might say that they believe she is lying and did send the payment, then turn around and reward her by saying it wasn't really a gift so she should get a refund. It's PayPal...anything can happen. I'm hoping that if they side against her it will be tantamount to proving fraud at which point they won't be willing to do anything for her.

Paypal's gift system is hands down the worst twist they've ever come up with. I'm wondering how much they are counting on abuse canceling out their responsibility.

[Japan-Games.com]

Sending the items back? She's committing fraud....I can't imagine she's going to send anything back....heh.

[Bad_Ad84]

Yeah, she sent the invoice through the PayPal system and specifically referenced the payment she made by the exact amount. She did it twice. One good thing is that she waited 11 days after the payment was made to file the claim. If her account has other activity during that time she will be hard pressed to explain how she didn't notice two payment were made from her account.

I'm not exactly sure how the gift payment will come into play. The issue is that she's saying she did not send the payment. That is what PayPal is investigating. Obviously I'm in a shitty spot since I have to prove she knowingly sent a payment because it was really for a transaction. PayPal might say that they believe she is lying and did send the payment, then turn around and reward her by saying it wasn't really a gift so she should get a refund. It's PayPal...anything can happen. I'm hoping that if they side against her it will be tantamount to proving fraud at which point they won't be willing to do anything for her.

Paypal's gift system is hands down the worst twist they've ever come up with. I'm wondering how much they are counting on abuse canceling out their responsibility.

If they look at the proof and decide she sent the payment, you will get to keep the money. However, the fact she is going via the "unauthorised transaction" means proof of delivery is not required anyway - its not going to help you, but its not going to help her either.

Using the gift system just means you are not protected in ANY way by the seller protection (which to be fair, is pretty useless anyway). For example, them claiming the item didnt arrive but you have proof = seller protection scheme.

The fact she seems to have knowingly admitted the payment should work in your favour. This is the angle you need to push with paypal as much as you possibly can in all of your messages with them.

[GaijinPunch]

Sending the items back? She's committing fraud....I can't imagine she's going to send anything back....heh.

Post her address all of the internet is the first step.

[ASSEMbler]

Post her address all of the internet is the first step.

This can be dangerous.

Fist you get someone stateside to act as agent and call her.
You can get the info from paypal.

[Japan-Games.com]

Nah, I don't post addresses. Seems that someone can just turn around and do the same to me.

Apparently it's cleared the first two stages, the first being that PayPal is notified and the second being "PayPal Fraud Specialist reviews claim". For that it says:

"A PayPal Fraud Specialist reviews the claim to determine whether the transaction(s) in question represent unauthorized activity. If the investigation results in a finding that unauthorized activity occurred, the victim will immediately be issued a credit for the full amount of the transaction(s). If the PayPal Fraud Specialists are unable to validate the unauthorized activity, the claimant will be notified of the findings via email."

The next step is currently in progress, which is "Seller Protection Program eligibility." For that it says, "If the receiving party is eligible for PayPal's Seller Protection Program ("SPP”), they will have 7 calendar days to respond to the claim. The receiving party's response helps determine their Seller Protection coverage."

I'm not sure what all of that means. If the second step has a check mark next to it and they've moved on to the 3rd step without giving a refund, then I'm assuming they were not able to find any unauthorized use. But they haven't send me any emails which they say they need to help determine my coverage. There has definitely been no refund to either party. The third stage has an arrow pointing to it so I'm assuming that's the stage we are in now.

What worries me is that PayPal might find that the payment was legitimately made, but since it doesn't fall under the protection program she gets the refund anyway.

[Bad_Ad84]

If it was legitimately made, she shouldnt get a refund.

She is claiming it was unauthorized use and if it was found it was actually authorized, they will not refund her for other reasons.

Her claim is X and that is what they are investigating and possibly refunding for. nothing else.

[Trenton_net]

If it was legitimately made, she shouldnt get a refund.

She is claiming it was unauthorized use and if it was found it was actually authorized, they will not refund her for other reasons.

Her claim is X and that is what they are investigating and possibly refunding for. nothing else.

Exactly. You can't de-gift someone once you give them a gift. In the same way, they can't just start applying any reason to give her a refund.

[Japan-Games.com]

"We have completed our investigation of the transaction below and were unable to find evidence of unauthorized access to the buyer’s account. This case was denied to the buyer and no funds were recovered from your account."

Sweetness.

[Bad_Ad84]

Told you :)

[HEX1GON]

All work out well?
Nevermind, scratch that.

[Bad_Ad84]

read the post 2 above yours.

[Trenton_net]

Did the lady attempt to talk to you after the fact? Or did she brake off all communication? I assume if she started scamming for the money, she might be really hard up for it. I wouldn't put it past someone like that to try and work out a deal for a return of the goods for the cash if the theft didn't work.

[mooseblaster]

"We have completed our investigation of the transaction below and were unable to find evidence of unauthorized access to the buyer’s account. This case was denied to the buyer and no funds were recovered from your account."

Sweetness.

For a change, the system worked! :)

[Japan-Games.com]

Yeah, I'm pretty happy with it. In the end when you get a claim you really have no idea which way it's going to work out in the end. I don't often get them which is good. Overall 99% of Buyers are good people. It's the 1% that really piss you off...heh. I never gave the amount before but it was actually $1,100. Nice chunk of change to get back.

[Japan-Games.com]

Well, looks like I spoke too soon...heh. She's done a reversal directly from her bank for one of the two payments. I'm guessing the second reversal will come through soon. I assumed that that would be her first option but it looks like it wasn't. So in the end she will get her money back.

Anyone know about what I have to provide PayPal to get information about her? For example I need to know her bank information so I can contact the bank directly. I'm assuming I'll need some kind of court order for PayPay to hand over the documents to me.

[GaijinPunch]

Is there no webpage where you can put a bounty on someone and have someone shit bomb them on their way to work?

[Bad_Ad84]

You now need to fight it again, paypal will try and recover the money by providing proof to the bank.

I have won one of these before and so has someone I know - so its possible.

Its also possible paypal will cover the money (and let you keep it) as they have already investigated and ruled in your favour. If she had gone straight to the bank, you would have a harder time.

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=security/chargeback_guide#


Chargeback Coverage with PayPal Dispute Resolution
PayPal may protect you against any future claim, chargeback or bank reversal the buyer files in relation to that particular transaction. To get the protection, you must honor the agreements you made with the buyer during the dispute resolution process. But we won't be able to offer protection if the claim has not been resolved by the time the chargeback is received.

[Trenton_net]

That's why I always drain my accounts ASAP if I have a lot of money in it. You can never be too sure.

[C-Kronos]

Good luck man, I hope it goes in your favor. This bitch is a piece of shit, after this is resolved, just post her information on 4chan and make something up that'll make them rage at her to avoid the "blah blah personal army" speeches.

[sanni]

I never sold anything via paypal but I heard a lot of horror stories about it.
Like Paypal keeping the buyers money for 20 days or Paypal revoking the money from the sellers account again after the parcel was shipped out, or Paypal freezing ones account so you can't use the money on it.

Are these stories true? Is paypal really that crappy for sellers? Or is it just the usual internet chit chat?

Should you avoid paypal as a seller or is it safe to use?
As a buyer I really love paypal because it's easy and very fast and the buyers protection really works well.

[Cyantist]

I never sold anything via paypal but I heard a lot of horror stories about it.
Like Paypal keeping the buyers money for 20 days or Paypal revoking the money from the sellers account again after the parcel was shipped out, or Paypal freezing ones account so you can't use the money on it.

Are these stories true? Is paypal really that crappy for sellers? Or is it just the usual internet chit chat?

Should you avoid paypal as a seller or is it safe to use?
As a buyer I really love paypal because it's easy and very fast and the buyers protection really works well.

Nobody posts "just made a paypal transaction that just went well!" only the bad stuff.

[Mystical]

Nobody posts "just made a paypal transaction that just went well!" only the bad stuff.

Same for most things in life, you very rarely hear anyone saying how they got good service from somewhere, its easily forgotten but if a business' screws up even slightly then they tend to tell everyone they are shit for years

[Trenton_net]

So was this case resolved? Did the bank still follow through with the transaction? Or were you able to successfully fight it and get the bank to realize that she is a scammer?

[C-Kronos]

Yeah, I'm curious as well as to what the outcome of this was. That person is horrible, I hope they suffer in some manner for doing this.