Check your PSONE discs now! CORROSION issues!

[ASSEMbler]

I am packing and ripping my old games. Hundreds of discs.

PCE CD games - cd is flawless. These discs date to 1992?
Sega CD- same discs is flawless

Psone. Oh. My. God.

Any fingerprints / skin oil left on the discs? Even if "clean" looking
when stored? Even trace oil? HEAVILY oxidize the disc surface.
Does NOT buff out or come off, it is a change in the disc surface.

This is a big big problem.

The bottom of psone games, for some reason are vulnerable to corrosion!

[KH2K4]

Yes I have few that are warped around the edges, ps1 discs also scratch very easily my WWF Attitude disc has a very slight scratch to it and it won't load the intro str on the weaker ps1 laser but reads fine on my ps2.

[Bad_Ad84]

Are you talking about the top of the disks? because I don't see how the bottom can be oxidized from finger prints/oils?

Unless you just mean the bottom surface has been attacked from oils/etc? which would make more sense than oxidization from finger prints.

Its usually the reflective layer (metal) that gets oxidized, not the plastics

edit:
Just noticed you say corrosion later on, which makes more sense to me at least.


Is the plastic cloudy and is it just where the finger prints were?

[randyrandall]

Photos would be interesting?

[ASSEMbler]

I own about 300? psone discs. I bought many of them used for just archiving.

Picture 1 is of a cleaned and archived disc.
Pictures 2 onward are of an uncleaned, archived as bought disc which has dirt
and fingerprints.
Last pictures show the permanent fingerprints oxidized into the disc.

http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae319/compilerex/Psone%20disc%20corrosion/017.jpg
Clean disc, cleaned when archived.

http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae319/compilerex/Psone%20disc%20corrosion/020.jpg

Uncleaned

http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae319/compilerex/Psone%20disc%20corrosion/027.jpg

Cleaned

http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae319/compilerex/Psone%20disc%20corrosion/030.jpg

Cleaned with permanent finger marks oxidized in the disc.

[APE]

I just read the other day that removal of fingerprint "data" is not 100% impossible from metallic surfaces due to minute changes in surface composition. Bunch of ionic level changes that allow you to detect fingerprint "data" after the surface has been cleaned.

Wouldn't be surprised if the composition change from transparent to black wouldn't eventually cause some problems. My Chrono Cross disc 1 has a ring scratch from a bloody SCPH-5501 and it has so angered me. This would be infuriating.

[Cyantist]

engineered to break down.

[ASSEMbler]

I just read the other day that removal of fingerprint "data" is not 100% impossible from metallic surfaces due to minute changes in surface composition. Bunch of ionic level changes that allow you to detect fingerprint "data" after the surface has been cleaned.

Wouldn't be surprised if the composition change from transparent to black wouldn't eventually cause some problems. My Chrono Cross disc 1 has a ring scratch from a bloody SCPH-5501 and it has so angered me. This would be infuriating.


well what this is is an oxidation of the black scratch proofing, I doubt the media is going to go bad as the disc play, it just looks like shit is all.

[APE]

well what this is is an oxidation of the black scratch proofing, I doubt the media is going to go bad as the disc play, it just looks like shit is all.

That is what I figured, good way to ruin resale value but at least its not as bad as LaserDisc laser rot.

Anyone know what makes the disc black? Wonder if it can be chemically altered over time.

[ASSEMbler]

http://youtu.be/L6ek2bKW22A

[APE]

The narrator states that "black ink is added" which unfortunately leads me to come up with the mental image of someone squirting a fountain pen into a batch of molten plastic. They show a handful of the transparent plastic that they melt to make the disc and then show a disc having some transparent viscous fluid being applied to the top. The inner hub is clearly a black plastic but the reflective metal layer is also clearly visible.

Unless they skipped the step for adding black in the video as per being a company secret or something. The narrator did say the black was to help prevent illegal copies from being made but I don't think I've ever heard that one before.

Given CD tech was pretty much mature by the time the Playstation came along I would place my bet on whatever Sony added to make the discs black (or allow the plastic to accept the coloring agent) is what caused the oxidation. Never have I seen a CD come out like that before, even the copy of MYST I've had since 1994 or so and abused heavily as a youngling. Looks like I tried to buff it with 80 grit sand paper but nothing like what your PS1 disc looks like.

Time to scour some patents for information.

[A. Snow]

I have a number discs that have clouded. Some are obliviously because of fingerprints I stupidly left but others have no apparent reason. I think the black color just fades over time for some reason and anything like fingerprints, dust particles, ect simply exacerbates it.

On the plus side it doesn't seem to affect them from playing since every game I've tested still plays just fine.

[KH2K4]

I thought they where black to reduce reflection due to the poor quality lasers :shrug: the reason why backups on none black cd-r tend to skip on large videos.

[ASSEMbler]

Well from a collector's point of view this is a nightmare.

[Consumed]

I thought they where black to reduce reflection due to the poor quality lasers :shrug: the reason why backups on none black cd-r tend to skip on large videos.

No, that's a myth that was introduced by SONY to try and discourage people from modding their machines and playing bent CD-R's. You have to bear in mind that the PlayStation because it used CD based media was often used by some as a standalone CD player, a laser that destroyed itself for playing anything other than black discs would have led to more class action suits than you could point a shitty stick at.

As for skippy FMV, shit media burnt at maximum speed is the problem there. I raped the living shit out of my first PSX for 3 years solid with either official discs, 'golds' or VCD's and she never once skipped a beat, in fact she was better than my Saturn which was meant to play VCD's.

[Teancum]

Makes me glad that projects like redump.org exists. At the very least the game data can be saved (in cases where the actual disc can be endangered). But I can see this definitely sucking for collectors unless you some how have collected everything sealed.

[derekb]

sad but not overly surprising

[Cooleo]

Can you not just get it resurfaced?

[ASSEMbler]

Can you not just get it resurfaced?

Sure I could, but resurfacing removes media from the disc and who is
to say they whole thing won't oxidize as a result down the road?

[ave]

Resurfaced looks even worse. I've got 1 or 2 resurfaced PS1 games and I will have to replace them someday because it's looks shitty.

By the way, I couldn't help laughing at the narrator of the PlayStation video at 1:07:

"Black ink is added to the plastic to give the CD its distinctive cool, PlayStation only look. This also helps protect the CD from illegal copies."

Lol

[KH2K4]

No, that's a myth that was introduced by SONY to try and discourage people from modding their machines and playing bent CD-R's. You have to bear in mind that the PlayStation because it used CD based media was often used by some as a standalone CD player, a laser that destroyed itself for playing anything other than black discs would have led to more class action suits than you could point a shitty stick at.

As for skippy FMV, shit media burnt at maximum speed is the problem there. I raped the living shit out of my first PSX for 3 years solid with either official discs, 'golds' or VCD's and she never once skipped a beat, in fact she was better than my Saturn which was meant to play VCD's.


Wikipedia
With the early units, many gamers experienced skipping full-motion video or physical "ticking" noises coming from their PlayStations. The problem appears to have come from poorly placed vents leading to overheating in some environments the plastic moldings inside the console would warp very slightly and create knock-on effects with the laser assembly. The solution was to ensure the console was sat on a surface which dissipated heat efficiently in a well vented area, or raise the unit up slightly by propping something at its edges. A common fix for already affected consoles was to turn the PlayStation sideways or upside-down (thereby using gravity to cancel the effects of the warped interior) although some gamers smacked the lid of the PlayStation to make a game load or work.

Earliest series had potentiometers on the board for adjusting the reading mechanism, named BIAS, GAIN and an unknown one. By connecting a voltmeter between the upper-most metering point near the BIAS potentiometer and the chassis, the resulting voltage could be read. The supposed right values are 1.70 V when a CD is spinning at 1x speed and 1.85 V when a CD is spinning at 2x speed. Further tuning was also possible on the unique potentiometer present on the CD drive. Later series featured an automatic laser calibration mechanism.
It wasn't until dual shock was standard did they release a model with a slightly better quality laser taking away the parallel port in the process to stop pirates.

Then there's the fact that all ps1 cds are 71 mins not the 74 mins cd-r's of the day.

[angelwolf71885]

The narrator states that "black ink is added" which unfortunately leads me to come up with the mental image of someone squirting a fountain pen into a batch of molten plastic. They show a handful of the transparent plastic that they melt to make the disc and then show a disc having some transparent viscous fluid being applied to the top. The inner hub is clearly a black plastic but the reflective metal layer is also clearly visible.

Unless they skipped the step for adding black in the video as per being a company secret or something. The narrator did say the black was to help prevent illegal copies from being made but I don't think I've ever heard that one before.

Given CD tech was pretty much mature by the time the Playstation came along I would place my bet on whatever Sony added to make the discs black (or allow the plastic to accept the coloring agent) is what caused the oxidation. Never have I seen a CD come out like that before, even the copy of MYST I've had since 1994 or so and abused heavily as a youngling. Looks like I tried to buff it with 80 grit sand paper but nothing like what your PS1 disc looks like.

Time to scour some patents for information.

actually the black plastic you see the workers futzing with is actually a master copy made from the glass master the plastic master copy is whats really used in disk pressing they coat it witch nickel to make it durable
and use it until it spits out useless disks and then make a new plastic master copy from the glass master and rinse and repeat

i learned that from the numerous videos on youtube showing DVD and DC manufacturing also " How Its Made " helped also

[derekb]

Honestly this problem is exactly why I'm unwilling to go after any disc based systems in a hardcore collecting manner and just stick with cart systems.

[MottZilla]

It wasn't until dual shock was standard did they release a model with a slightly better quality laser taking away the parallel port in the process to stop pirates.

Then there's the fact that all ps1 cds are 71 mins not the 74 mins cd-r's of the day.

It's true that the laser was close to the power supply in older models AND the laser assembly was made of improper plastics that the heat would deform and cause problems. This was corrected in either the 500x or 700x series I think. They both moved the laser and used better materials.

PS1 CDs were not "71 minutes". They were like every CD-ROM, 74 minutes until later on when 80 minute CD-ROMs came about some games were on those I believe. CD-Rs also used to come in 74 minute capacity until 80 minutes became more common and nowdays you can only find premium archive discs that still are in 74 minute length.

Lots of rumors surround things like this. The truth is usually less dramatic than the rumors.

[KH2K4]

It's not rumour name me one ps1 game that goes past 71 mins? even the official sony software lists it as the default setting. It's just a generic cd software creation tool with PLAYSTATION presets nothing special it's probably resused code from their audio cd creation tools.

[Consumed]

You seem to be missing one salient point, namely that a 71 minute only CD would be classed as proprietary media as it would be running to a non recognized length or standard. PlayStation games come on bog-standard CD's. SONY may well possibly have imposed a limit of 71 minutes of data or code at the beginning of the machines life but that's nothing to do with disc capacity, it's just there to guarantee that the disc reads all of the media it's presented with.

[Bad_Ad84]

Its happened before - there were audio disks they had copy protection and were eventually forced to remove the "Compact Disc" branding as it violated spec.

Do PS1 disks have the Compact Disc logo? If not, then its not a proper CD. Just like Wii games arent DVD's but look the same and you can use DVDR's to copy the games.

Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc#Copy_protection

[Consumed]

Do PS1 disks have the Compact Disc logo? If not, then its not a proper CD. Just like Wii games arent DVD's but look the same and you can use DVDR's to copy the games.

Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc#Copy_protection

Yes they do, it's on the back of the packaging, in the manual and on the software/disc itself.

[Bad_Ad84]

In that case...

Although the link I posted was in 2002 (post PS1) - I would imagine if Sony were blatantly selling PS1 games with the Compact Disc logo that violated spec, Phillips would have jumped on them.

[KH2K4]

Well they used CDR-71PB also. What was maximum disc space size of 1994?
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1628/cdrjo.jpg

[Consumed]

650 MB or 74 minutes, that was the industry standard from the start.

[angelwolf71885]

650 MB or 74 minutes, that was the industry standard from the start.

i wonder why they bumped it to 700Mb and just kinda stopped
would of been nice if the industry kept right on trucking and maxed the CD format out at 99 mins or so

[feder]

i wonder why they bumped it to 700Mb and just kinda stopped
would of been nice if the industry kept right on trucking and maxed the CD format out at 99 mins or so

They didn't stop, in fact, there are some 99 min/870 mb CDs out there.

EDIT: DealExtreme sells them, here's a link: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ris-99-minutes-870mb-ultra-high-capacity-cd-r-50-pack-spindle-4478

[Xeauron]

They didn't stop, in fact, there are some 99 min/870 mb CDs out there.

EDIT: DealExtreme sells them, here's a link: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ris-99-minutes-870mb-ultra-high-capacity-cd-r-50-pack-spindle-4478

But don't they cause more trouble than they solve when it comes to 90's readers with a 74 min 80 min max spec as the laser would have to move beyond it's mandated zone in order to read them?

I may have missed the point of your post there by the way! So no offense...lol

[APE]

But don't they cause more trouble than they solve when it comes to 90's readers with a 74 min 80 min max spec as the laser would have to move beyond it's mandated zone in order to read them?

I may have missed the point of your post there by the way! So no offense...lol

99min discs didn't come out until well after the 74min standard was pressed into stone. They also aren't stamped with CD-ROM anywhere as far as I know.

[Xeauron]

99min discs didn't come out until well after the 74min standard was pressed into stone. They also aren't stamped with CD-ROM anywhere as far as I know.

That's pretty much what I mean, can 99min discs even be used on the likes of PSX - Saturn - Dreamcast?

[angelwolf71885]

That's pretty much what I mean, can 99min discs even be used on the likes of PSX - Saturn - Dreamcast?

i remember during the giest force talk
that if it was to large some people were gonna try and get 99 min cdr's
i think they were popular for dreamcast backups back in the day

but then again the dreamcast can read a 1.2 gig disk so not a surprise really

i am uncertain about the PSX and Saturn

[Xeauron]

i remember during the giest force talk
that if it was to large some people were gonna try and get 99 min cdr's
i think they were popular for dreamcast backups back in the day

but then again the dreamcast can read a 1.2 gig disk so not a surprise really

i am uncertain about the PSX and Saturn

Yeah, but saying that the Dreamcast native GD-R standard includes a surface that has many times more tightly coiled data rings than standard CD-R (Considering the room it has to make for the initial CD-R compat session) meaning the lens should never make it to the very outer edge.

Feel free to correct me, that's what I'm looking for. The GD-R mode on DCs would I guess also invoke a different 'read mode' to 'CD-Rs' since GD-R holds more data and uses a different diffusion pattern.

This means in reading data in CD mode it should still have a mandated 'end' to where it can comfortably read data without being instructed to 'stray'.

[angelwolf71885]

Yeah, but saying that the Dreamcast native GD-R standard includes a surface that has many times more tightly coiled data rings than standard CD-R (Considering the room it has to make for the initial CD-R compat session) meaning the lens should never make it to the very outer edge.

Feel free to correct me, that's what I'm looking for. The GD-R mode on DCs would I guess also invoke a different 'read mode' to 'CD-Rs' since GD-R holds more data and uses a different diffusion pattern.

This means in reading data in CD mode it should still have a mandated 'end' to where it can comfortably read data without being instructed to 'stray'.

well from what i understand the sessions on a GD disk are 1 mm wide give take and about 1 mm of space bumped us from 71 min to 74 min
the video posted here says 40 tracks fit in a human hair
so thats where i got about 1 mm = 50 Mb

and the few games on the dreamcast that do take up all 1.2 gig or dame near the entire thing go all the way to the outer edge

what i mean by sessions with is the space between sessions are about 1 mm wide

[Xeauron]

well from what i understand the sessions on a GD disk are 1 mm wide give take and about 1 mm of space bumped us from 71 min to 74 min
the video posted here says 40 tracks fit in a human hair
so thats where i got about 1 mm = 50 Mb

and the few games on the dreamcast that do take up all 1.2 gig or dame near the entire thing go all the way to the outer edge

what i mean by sessions with is the space between sessions are about 1 mm wide

OK time to get to the point with added juice.

I've been warned on more than several occasions that 'over burning' or the use of 99min media 'MAY' cause malfunction in the destination device if said device isn't mandated to slide or angle at such a disc as to read it's entire contents. Said warnings stated that whatever CD drive reading this could possibly make attempts to decipher unreadable sectors by hitting the edge ring (basically where it makes a shit noise because it can't go any further) and also adjusting the laser angle/power input unnecessarily.

The drive will repeat these attempts to read the unreachable sectors on the disc until the loop is broken (unlikely as it's usually infinite) or power is cut to said device.

My final point is that when you place a GD-ROM in the Dreamcast drive the data is read from the inner circle of the disc (TOC) and the drive then switches to it's second (in this example) read mode which is GD read mode utilizing the laser differently from CD mode.

Main POINT:
Obviously to read a GD-ROM fully the laser lens would have to travel no further than it would to read a full CD-ROM as the GD data grooves are in the same range as CD only packed tighter in.

Now do you know what I mean/or are suggesting?
______________________________

Also on a side note:

Oh my god! Sorry for the topic hijack!

[angelwolf71885]

i know exacly what your talking about we've all herd these same warnings
for many many years since cd burners were 600+ dollars

but the GD drive can and dose read further on the disk
when you account for that buffer zone between sessions

like mentioned before 99 min cd-r's were popular for dreamcast backups
alls i know is they have been documented to work just fine on the dreamcast

and as far as i understand how the CD spc works
is the laser path is all the same length its not documented how long that path is

from my understanding the spc has the laser turn of at the 74 min mark
but in reality if you send out of spec commands you can make the laser hit its bump stop

as far as i know the CD drive only takes its orders from the TOC
the TOC says shut the laser off at this min mark so it dose
if the TOC is long then the laser would stay on longer

the only special commands i know of are the ones used to write the high TOC/overburn a CD to the bump stop

other then the TOC i have no real explinashion of how a cd drive could read so far because even with tighter tracks DVDs take up more surfiace area on the 12 CM disk

also i have to correct in my last post where i say 1mm when i mean 1 CM
epic fail on my part

[sayin999]

It's sad I read an article on the playstations history where sony wanted to use cd's that were designed to be a lot more scratch resistant. But kutaragi stepped in and said it be better to use this cheaper media he found to save on costs.

Honestly it is almost impossible to have ps1 games that are in mint with no scratches or oxidation. Longest I had last with no scratches was Final Fantasy Chronicles and even that finally got some scratches after a year. And you better hope your games don't have any cracks, cause i borrowed a game from a friend once that had a tin crack in the corner with a slightly deep scratch below it, tried to buff it out so my ps1 would read it, disc literally broke in half.

Fact is sony just used a cheaper cd media that most cd manufactures wouldn't use. Only time I have experienced oxidation that resulted in broken discs were some sony dvd-rs I once bought. Lesson learned most sony media is cheap crap.

[ASSEMbler]

I just checked some hundred discs, and for some reason the bottom of
final fantasy tactics is different color than black, it's more grey-blue and the data can be seen.

[H360]

Correct. It is not black. It is a blue / purple. It looks black, because there is no light to reflect on it. Kind of like how people with black hair, actually have brown hair if you look at it with the sun on it.

My PlayStation discs have that white cloud also. Only some. Mainly the ones I have stored in a draw with zero light, in their original cases.

Do you think it would be possible to remove that black / purplish blue 'ink'?

I mean, to really know if it is the same as a CD-ROM (PC standard), then we need an electron microscope to match pit by pit and notice where the 'copy protection' pit lies... :P

[KH2K4]

It had nothing to do with copy protection the only reason they couldn't be copied properly was because some games contained XA audio along with CDDA which no other software at the time supported that's why CDRWIN invented the .BIN / .CUE sheet format, later CloneCD did come along with subchannel support so you could defeat libcyrpt protection though by working out the differences and manually patching the image yourself with a ppf or a hexeditor.

[H360]

It had nothing to do with copy protection the only reason they couldn't be copied properly was because some games contained XA audio along with CDDA which no other software at the time supported that's why CDRWIN invented the .BIN / .CUE sheet format, later CloneCD did come along with subchannel support so you could defeat libcyrpt protection though by working out the differences and manually patching the image yourself with a ppf or a hexeditor.

So there is no 'secret' pits that a PC CD-ROM reader cant read?

Well what was everyone going on about then?

Maybe in the video they did it as a scam to trick us all...

I just thought, it was a prevention to stop scratches. I mean, a thin layer of 'ink' will stop light ones, but not all. Then again, wont the 'ink' shorten the pits height?

[Bad_Ad84]

Sony have a history of just making shit up when it comes to consoles.

The PS2 was supposed to have Toy Story quality graphics.

[KH2K4]

So there is no 'secret' pits that a PC CD-ROM reader cant read?

Well what was everyone going on about then?

Maybe in the video they did it as a scam to trick us all...

I just thought, it was a prevention to stop scratches. I mean, a thin layer of 'ink' will stop light ones, but not all. Then again, wont the 'ink' shorten the pits height?

Read the Zone Loader documents :thumbsup:

[H360]

Sony have a history of just making shit up when it comes to consoles.

The PS2 was supposed to have Toy Story quality graphics.

Im sorry, WHAT? :lol:

[Xeauron]

Sony have a history of just making shit up when it comes to consoles.

The PS2 was supposed to have Toy Story quality graphics.


Im sorry, WHAT? :lol:

I can back up exactly what he said, they WELL over played the capabilities of the PS2, the same thing they did as we all know with the PS3.

Though from those overblown demos to the actual games, the PS3 is the one platform where the devs have actually come almost close to delivering something like they promised during the time when the hype machine was in full swing.

[H360]

I can back up exactly what he said, they WELL over played the capabilities of the PS2, the same thing they did as we all know with the PS3.

Though from those overblown demos to the actual games, the PS3 is the one platform where the devs have actually come almost close to delivering something like they promised during the time when the hype machine was in full swing.

haha, that's funny. Why would Sony do such a thing?

Gaming now is all about how great the graphics look. No one cares about the gameplay anymore...


... But back on topic for ASSEmbler before it gets out of hand.

[ASSEMbler]

I just inspected a new copy of lunar 2

The whole disc is frosted, and the three lines where the top plastic was poured
onto the pressed part is visible.

I hold great fear for the durability of psone games.

http://i.imgur.com/iueIx.jpg

[H360]

Ah, do I hear a Hard Drive running off of my PS anytime soon?

[MoonDog]

I just inspected a new copy of lunar 2

The whole disc is frosted, and the three lines where the top plastic was poured
onto the pressed part is visible.

I hold great fear for the durability of psone games.



Oh no! Even sealed games aren't safe from the wrath of time :(

[H360]

This is so bad. Why did Sony have to use this in the pressing process!

Modchips where then invented, the games 'protection' from the ink has been exploited and the truth was set free that it did nothing (except prevent scratches).

Why didn't they stop using it and actually try to stop piracy / modchips in the hardware...

[Xeauron]

Ah, do I hear a Hard Drive running off of my PS anytime soon?

No.

Very no...

Not in this life time, I'm willing to bet on that.


Why didn't they stop using it and actually try to stop piracy / modchips in the hardware...

There's no way they were going to stop using the trademark black disk PS1 production. Also they did try to address piracy on both fronts, one of the reasons you have to swap discs twice on certain models and have to solder more wires into your PSX which doesn't even guarantee that every game will work burned.

At no point did they stand idly by while end users ripped off games.

[H360]

No.

Very no...

Not in this life time, I'm willing to bet on that.

We shall bet on that when I finish it.

[KH2K4]

Yep it's part of the reason they removed the parallel and serial port from later models, as far I know nothing was officially made for the parallel port the serial port allowed link up play irc with Gran Turismo and other driving games.

[svartevarg]

That's why digitization of data and HDD loading is a must nowadays.....
I think all future consoles shall have HDD installation of games - u just have to put original media to identify that u legally own a legally-bought copy....

Play LA Noire on XBOX360 slim and u'll see how melting hot your dvds get...
I played my legally bought LA Noire on my CFW'ed PS3.....Ripped it to jb files, applied the official patch.....Original Game Disk is resting in its case forever...

I do not condone piracy in any way.....just wanna have a collection of originals that will last ....

[H360]

I collect the originals and then download them. Still keeps them sealed, and is legal, as I own them :D

[Bad_Ad84]

You are supposed to create backups from your own media - not download them (even if you own them) to stay legit with "fair use".

[derekb]

i remember during the giest force talk
that if it was to large some people were gonna try and get 99 min cdr's
i think they were popular for dreamcast backups back in the day

but then again the dreamcast can read a 1.2 gig disk so not a surprise really

i am uncertain about the PSX and Saturn

I recall D2 not being properly backed up until a 99min image was used. Even then some people couldnt use it cuz of the mentioned problems in writing to the non standard media. I'm not really sure if support for them was ever properly adopted across the board

[wmd]

This problem is exactly why we need a WODE equivalent for the PS1.

[APE]

You are supposed to create backups from your own media - not download them (even if you own them) to stay legit with "fair use".

That is under the DMCA, being Haunted is Australian who knows what regulations are there but you can bet they make the DMCA look tame.


Ah, do I hear a Hard Drive running off of my PS anytime soon?

Unless by "soon" you mean when you spend 6-8 years at Uni and stop creating multiple threads in the PS Dev section hoping for information handouts to string together into a working product? Then yes.

Looks like I won't bother collecting Playstation games except for the artwork.

[H360]

Unless by "soon" you mean when you spend 6-8 years at Uni and stop creating multiple threads in the PS Dev section hoping for information handouts to string together into a working product? Then yes

Then that is what I shall do!

I wont give up!!

[KH2K4]

Or use a console based emulator such as CubeSX, WiiSX, PS2PSxe, BleemCast etc.

[H360]

Boring.

The point is to make the PlayStation officially reverse-engineered and hacked. Mainly, so I can claim it as the first to do it and get on Hack-a-day, Gizmodo etc...

It is also good for playing the original games of course.

So for example Resident Evil, Tekken, Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee, Klonoa, Final Fantasy, Bust a Groove and many many more will load extremely fast and stay in synch. It will also remove the issue of the 'video playback'. So the .STR's will not destroy your laser or be de-synched.


The truth is that the lasers and gearing are dying in the PlayStations. It has to be done.

[wmd]

Or use a console based emulator such as CubeSX, WiiSX, PS2PSxe, BleemCast etc.
All flawed. Each and every one of them.

The best solution to this problem is an ODE for the original hardware.

[KH2K4]

Have you even tried WiiSX? PS2PSxe was just a little teaser more than anything else it's nowhere near compatible with games yet, BleemCast well that was defunct years ago.

[Consumed]

I don't know if it's been improved but the last time I tried WiiSX round at a mates house I was getting at best 10 fps with Motor Toon GP 2. I just don't see the point in emulating the PSX on anything other than the PSP or a PC. Yes, some games look very nice via Bleemcast but is that reason enough to rape the shit out of your DC's laser?



The truth is that the lasers and gearing are dying in the PlayStations. It has to be done.

Why, exactly? The units are in such plentiful supply and so cheap as to be disposable. When one fails you just cannibalise what you can, bin the rest and move on to the next console. It's the same with the Saturn, the Dreamcast, the original Xbox and the PlayStation 2, there are more than enough units to far and away supply demand.

[H360]

I don't know if it's been improved but the last time I tried WiiSX round at a mates house I was getting at best 10 fps with Motor Toon GP 2. I just don't see the point in emulating the PSX on anything other than the PSP or a PC. Yes, some games look very nice via Bleemcast but is that reason enough to rape the shit out of your DC's laser?



Why, exactly? The units are in such plentiful supply and so cheap as to be disposable. When one fails you just cannibalise what you can, bin the rest and move on to the next console. It's the same with the Saturn, the Dreamcast, the original Xbox and the PlayStation 2, there are more than enough units to far and away supply demand.

So SEGA shipped say, 10.6 million Dreamcasts worldwide. Lets say, the .6 million were damaged, faulty and or destroyed. That leaves us with 10 million units left.

Soon, that number will drop as non tech-savy users bin them as you say. So lets go down to now 9 million working and running perfectly fine. Sure, the US will have more then enough but what about me as an Australian, or even in New Zealand on a small island.

Eventually that number will drop. Lower and lower everyday. SEGA does not make spare parts for them that I know of and I dont know any console that can play dreamcast games backwards compatible like the PS2 with PS1 games.

Your saying, you would rather open your console and install spare parts from some other persons console when you would just save the laser assembly and use a SD card / HDD to play your classics.

This argument is invalid. Why dont you tell this to Krikzz with the Everdrive and tell him to stop wasting his time and to sell spare parts from used consoles?

[Consumed]

This argument is invalid? Are you pissed? There's a world of difference between repairing and restoring broken or faulty consoles and creating a cartridge that when it all boils down to it is just another pirate device for running illegal ROM's on genuine hardware, it's just an alternative to floppy based copiers like the Pro Fighter or Magicom etc. His creation in no way does anything but perpetuate piracy.

If you can't see the difference then I'm afraid you're a fucking idiot.

[H360]

This argument is invalid? Are you pissed? There's a world of difference between repairing and restoring broken or faulty consoles and creating a cartridge that when it all boils down to it is just another pirate device for running illegal ROM's on genuine hardware, it's just an alternative to floppy based copiers like the Pro Fighter or Magicom etc. His creation in no way does anything but perpetuate piracy.

If you can't see the difference then I'm afraid you're a fucking idiot.

lol :-P

Lets keep it on topic now for ASSEmbler...

[tails92]

I mean, I buy the original cartridge of Megadrive era games I like if I can find them cheap, but to say I wouldn't download them is insane. If there's something bad about the Everdrive is not what it does, which is letting you get the most of a device your enjoy, but the absurdely insane price. I bet that with $70 a pop which Krikzz requests in Ukraine he's going to be very rich compared to the general populace.

Consumed, you are as shortsighted as humanly possible. "Disposable", "plentiful supply", that's why the current "Western" society sucks so badly.
I would already be playing with the idea if I had enough experience (not uni, I'm sorry! you don't need uni to do everything!).

[H360]

I mean, I buy the original cartridge of Megadrive era games I like if I can find them cheap, but to say I wouldn't download them is insane. If there's something bad about the Everdrive is not what it does, which is letting you get the most of a device your enjoy, but the absurdely insane price. I bet that with $70 a pop which Krikzz requests in Ukraine he's going to be very rich compared to the general populace.

Consumed, you are as shortsighted as humanly possible. "Disposable", "plentiful supply", that's why the current "Western" society sucks so badly.
I would already be playing with the idea if I had enough experience (not uni, I'm sorry! you don't need uni to do everything!).

From knowing you Tails, you would outsmart the UNI teachers ;-)

You are a legend! :thumbsup:

[Consumed]

Consumed, you are as shortsighted as humanly possible. "Disposable", "plentiful supply", that's why the current "Western" society sucks so badly.

Let me see if I've got this right. It's ok to buy or create a device so that you can play ROM's or ISOs on a certain console but it's wrong to take parts from 2 faulty units to make one good one? Alright then, genius, what pray tell me do you do when the unit you're using these devices on breaks, develops a fault or just plain dies? Do you shop around like I do and buy one of the ''plentiful supply'' to either replace or repair your broken unit or do you think 'Oh well, that's the end of my PlayStation gaming as my PSX has died and it would be so wrong of me to even deign the thought of buying another'?

Another dickhead. I wish people would think before they typed.

[APE]

Boring.

The point is to make the PlayStation officially reverse-engineered and hacked. Mainly, so I can claim it as the first to do it and get on Hack-a-day, Gizmodo etc...


And this is a big part of the reason why if you were to drop off this boards nobody here would shed a tear.

Quit spamming this board with useless dribble! I have yet to see a single post from you where I didn't roll my eyes for one reason or another making me question why I bother visiting this place if I once came here eagerly looking for new information only to find someone going around pissing off users because of their own 16 year old ego and misplaced enthusiasm.

[tails92]

Let me see if I've got this right. It's ok to buy or create a device so that you can play ROM's or ISOs on a certain console but it's wrong to take parts from 2 faulty units to make one good one? Alright then, genius, what pray tell me do you do when the unit you're using these devices on breaks, develops a fault or just plain dies? Do you shop around like I do and buy one of the ''plentiful supply'' to either replace or repair your broken unit or do you think 'Oh well, that's the end of my PlayStation gaming as my PSX has died and it would be so wrong of me to even deign the thought of buying another'?

Another dickhead. I wish people would think before they typed.

You didn't understand what I said well, I said that thinking that a device like that is just for piracy and that it shouldn't be done because one can cannibbalize parts from other systems is shortsighted *NOT* that fixing a system with parts from another system is wrong. I fix things like that all the time, but for the PlayStation it really isn't a permanent solution due to its poor and proprietary CD drive.

I myself have six playstation in various functioning states - some are broken, some have a CD drive in bad state, etc.
The choice of your words, though, shows your level of maturity very well. Congratulations to who discovers your level of maturity (or, what, it is so obvious at this point).

Haunted, yeah, I think that at this point you've gone too far with opening all these topics and that you must learn to think yourself.
Having a "lot" of information on mundane items like controller revisions, etc. is not of much use and does not benefit anyone. What about not talking about your projects before you've started working on them since a while?

[Nintendawg]

As has already been said, the black (well dark blue) surface colour has nothing to do with copy protection. I don't think it even offers further scratch resistance. I remember hearing back in the day that thet were black just so consumers could easily identify a pirate game.

So say your at your local markets and you see a PS1 game. If you are too dumb to notice all the other signs a game is counterfeit you can just flip over the disc and instantly tell. I think that was the idea.

Related, aged about 11 I got a CD-R that was black on the bottom. I used it to burn a "boot disc" ISO I got off some shady late 90's warez site.

Being black underneath I expected it to work on my unmodded playstation but of course it did nothing:-(.
:lol:

[splith]

The black bottom on the PS1 discs is a scratch resistant coasting they apply, I know because I got given 2 blank CDRs with the same stuff on the bottom (looked just like a PS1 disc) and the information on the back mentioned it being added as a form of scratch prevention.

Don't think I wrote to either of them, and I've got them laying around here somewhere.

[Consumed]

@tails92 - to clarify:

You stated that I was wasteful for calling consoles like the PlayStation ''disposable'' and said that people like me were the reason that ''Western society sucks'', yet in the same breath justify your reasoning for owning or purchasing a device like the 'Everdrive' - which has NO other real use than for piracy - because the cost of some of the more desirable carts is too high. Sir, you have messed up.

If throwing away an item because it no longer works is wasteful but stating that piracy is ok if you can't afford the original item then I put it to you that the reason ''Western society sucks'' is because of people like you who can't see the wrong in stealing someone's intellectual property but berate others for disposing of something that has come to the end of its natural life.

As for calling into question my maturity, I have no idea what you're trying to allude to. I didn't misunderstand your post, you misinterpreted mine hence the reason you typed 2 paragraphs of crap and I called you on it.

[Consumed]

I remember seeing black CD-R's on sale at computer fairs years ago and knew a few 'gold' sellers who used them but the quality of them was abominable, the failure rate was something like 7 out of 10 and of the 3 that worked it was hit and miss which units they worked in.

[Cyantist]

I got 250 Purple with a texture (label side only) CD-R's a few years ago dead cheap. and I still have some because they are JUNK

They refuse to work in CD players. So as Audio CD's they are wank and obviously are useless for burning games.

The failure rate is terrible. Don't use them for anything permanent. I use them for carting media to and from school and on the systems that don't have disk drives they're useless. The dye on some has leaked from the sides.

Edit: These are what the shit sacks look like avoid them at all costs:
http://www.supershopmedia.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/135x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p/r/prodisc-termal-purple-cd.jpg

[sneakypeanut]

i had no idea this place was se7ensis

[Consumed]

Blanks with textured tops are usually overprints of name brand faulty media. I don't know if they're still in the disc producing market but a lot of Bulk Paq orange topped DVD-R's used to be overprints of dodgy batch Data-Writes.

[Consumed]

i had no idea this place was se7ensis

Eh?

[Cyantist]

Blanks with textured tops are usually overprints of name brand faulty media. I don't know if they're still in the disc producing market but a lot of Bulk Paq orange topped DVD-R's used to be overprints of dodgy batch Data-Writes.

Ah thats probably why then. That said they were cheap enough (less than 1p per CD-R) that they do just to cart stuff to school.

[H360]

Ah thats probably why then. That said they were cheap enough (less than 1p per CD-R) that they do just to cart stuff to school.

A PlayStation 1 Disc is more stronger then a normal CD-ROM. I don't know it is 100% correct, but it feels thicker and more solid if you flex it.

[retro]

I'd never leave my discs in that state in the first place. If it's dirty, it gets cleaned straight away. If it's scratched to a problematic degree, it gets professionally skimmed.

Remembering I used to do it for a living, I've seen thousands of PSX games skimmed and they come out absolutely fine. Get it done by a professional machine - NEVER use a home polishing kit or even a cheap machine. In the UK, you can go to Gamestation, GAME or Blockbuster and they should be able to skim it for a small fee (I think it's £2).

[H360]

I'd never leave my discs in that state in the first place. If it's dirty, it gets cleaned straight away. If it's scratched to a problematic degree, it gets professionally skimmed.

Remembering I used to do it for a living, I've seen thousands of PSX games skimmed and they come out absolutely fine. Get it done by a professional machine - NEVER use a home polishing kit or even a cheap machine. In the UK, you can go to Gamestation, GAME or Blockbuster and they should be able to skim it for a small fee (I think it's £2).

I agree 100%.

I have a Game DR. and it creates 'streaks' or smears from the center out. I mainly bought it at the time to play Crash Team Racing, as my little brother scratched it on a rock when I was at school (I was 12 or so). Cost me $70 from EB Games. Works, but I would not use it on collectables. I use it for DVD's from time to time and it fixes them well.

[tails92]

Consumed, you hijacked my argument and you didn't understand it well for the second time at this point. Anyway, who the hell cares about "piracy" and infringement of "intellectual property" for decade old products? We're not talking about yesterday's games.
Oh wait, there are some people who *do* care. It's uninnovative companies which try to milk their products as long as they can.

I mean, if those companies couldn't do money when the game was commercially viable then it's their fault - the market has its successes and failures, it's the course of life. But doing money on stuff which often is not even flea market material re-releasing their stuff on their "Virtual Console"-like services, - hell, no. SMB ain't worth $5, more like $1 at the flea market

You realize that *most* people *WORK* a lot to be able to live... and those "authors" want to live a whole lifetime *without* working by sitting on their "intellectual property"? How reasonable is that!?

[retro]

Sorry tails, but your argument is complete bullshit.

Others care about piracy too - us, the collectors.

How would you like it if you owned a high-value item, then people made knock-offs available freely? Your item is suddenly worthless... and you may well lose a lot of money as a result.

As for the developers, they worked long and hard on these games. They spent a lot of money developing them. Yes, they probably recouped their costs. However, you can't say they're not working. They made the games, why shouldn't they be allowed to re-release them? Going by your argument, film studios should NEVER make DVDs of their films because they already made their money in the box office.

Piracy is piracy. You will find that people on this forum DO care. And don't forget, there are several members who work in the industry - some for big developers, others as small (even one-man) operations. They don't want to see their hard work stolen.

[H360]

Lets stay under control here.

Piracy is piracy, yes. But the games are so old now I am certain the developers do not care anymore and have made there money for there work.

If you buy a used or second hand game, it is not like the developers are getting credits :-P

My laws are different from yours, but I do not think anyone would really care if you downloaded a few games that you missed out on. Hell, I would be happy if someone downloaded a illegal copy of a game I made, so they can see my hard work and enjoy the game.

I would not however, download a game that has just been released and the developers / publishers are still making money from for there hard work.

Its a hard topic to discuss because there are so many contradictions and laws involved.

[tails92]

Sorry tails, but your argument is complete bullshit.

Others care about piracy too - us, the collectors.

How would you like it if you owned a high-value item, then people made knock-offs available freely? Your item is suddenly worthless... and you may well lose a lot of money as a result.

As for the developers, they worked long and hard on these games. They spent a lot of money developing them. Yes, they probably recouped their costs. However, you can't say they're not working. They made the games, why shouldn't they be allowed to re-release them? Going by your argument, film studios should NEVER make DVDs of their films because they already made their money in the box office.

Piracy is piracy. You will find that people on this forum DO care. And don't forget, there are several members who work in the industry - some for big developers, others as small (even one-man) operations. They don't want to see their hard work stolen.

High-valued item? I do not invest in something as frivolous as collecting video game things. I like computers, disassembling them, assembling them, developing for them, etc. but I'm not going to shell a lot of money out for collectibles. I actually use/play my stuff. I have not said that they should not be able to rerelease them, I just implied that copyright after a period of 14 years should expire, because if you didn't manage to turn a profit in that many years, well, yours was a failed venture.
And "piracy" is making authorized copies, not stealing stuff... that's what leaking is and that's very different. Leaking can be actually dangerous IMHO

And there will always be people buying games, regardless if they can be copied easily. One, instead of going to a cafè/pub/whatever to drink a cup of coffee or to drink a beer, a soda drink, etc. can go to buy it at the department stores, and get it for much less. Then why do people go to those places? I must tell, it isn't about the items sold there.
There is an attractive. That's what must be created / be had, without relying on law-protected draconian business models.

Civilization wouldn't vanish if copyright were to be abolished tomorrow, maybe it would even flourish.

[fasman]

Can a mod please clean up this thread it had some useful information in it , but its just turned into a trash talking thread?

PS Haunted360 please stop trying to act like you want to keep things on topic, from what I understand you're just poured fuel on the fire.

[H360]

Can a mod please clean up this thread it had some useful information in it , but its just turned into a trash talking thread?

PS Haunted360 please stop trying to act like you want to keep things on topic, from what I understand you're just poured fuel on the fire.

:-( The thing is, I tried, and it went back off... Dont blame me for this.

Besides, they are posting relative information. Just not in the correct topic.

[randyrandall]

I have an audio CD that has the black coating the bottom (The first White Lies album).

Is there a concrete reason as to why Sony used a black covering on the bottom of their games? There seems to be no definite answer.

How would you guys advise to clean Psone discs to attempt to avoid this 'corrosion'?

[fasman]

I have an audio CD that has the black coating the bottom (The first White Lies album).

Is there a concrete reason as to why Sony used a black covering on the bottom of their games? There seems to be no definite answer.

How would you guys advise to clean Psone discs to attempt to avoid this 'corrosion'?

Maybe a plastic safe wax polish could do the trick , that should stop dirt, oil from corroding the plastic,as wax should form a protective barrier between the dirt/oil and the disc, but its just an idea.

PS you get black discs for a lot of things,I've seen it used for promotional discs,a driver disc for my wifi dongle, as well as the audio CD that you get with Bioshock 2 Limited edition is allso black(to make it look like a old LP), its only blue die that they add when making the discs so any of the CD pressing factories can make them.

Edit: spelling fixed

[H360]

Maybe a plastic safe wax polish could do the trick , that should stop dirt, oil from corroding the plastic,as wax should form a protective barrier between the dirt/oil and the disc, but its just an idea.

PS you get black discs for a lot of things,I've seen it used for promotional discs,a driver disc for my wifi dongle, as well as the audio CD that you get with Bioshock 2 Limited edition is allso black(to make it look like a old LP), its only blue die that they add when making the discs so any of the CD pressing factories can make them.

Edit: spelling fixed

Yea, but ASSEMbler showed us a BRAND NEW out of the packaging PS disc and it still had it. It has nothing to do with the fingerprints or dirt...

Unless, he had already opened it and said it was new when it was already played or something????

[fasman]

A good wax will prevent any atmospheric corrosion that could occur, in the same way as I stated above, as long as the disc isnt already damaged.

By the way has any one checked to see if climate has an effect on the discs?

[H360]

A good wax will prevent any atmospheric corrosion that could occur, in the same way as I stated above, as long as the disc isnt already damaged.

By the way has any one checked to see if climate has an effect on the discs?

Mine are stored in the cold most of the time. Dark, and possibly a little damp from the moisture in the air. I am way above sea level. They are ok, but some have a cloud to them...

[ASSEMbler]

I think there's some poor quality psone discs for sure.

[takeshi385]

i see your problem i must say it has happened to me too , 2 words modchip backups

[APE]

i see your problem i must say it has happened to me too , 2 words modchip backups

^This.

I look at the world in a very long term sort of perspective that most people find baffling. Assuming every PSOne disc will eventually end up fugly it means in the next 10-50 years originals that are pristine will become highly coveted items worth considerable amounts. Heck, maybe the scratched up copy of MGS on your shelf will be worth more if it doesn't end up cloudy.

On the other hand, even if they become absolutely worthless in terms of play they are still valid museum pieces. How many museums have items you can't touch for fear they will fall apart or further degrade? How many museums will be after an original MGS even if it can't be played on Playstations in the future?

I'm sure the guy down the street from me will only care that his games are now worthless and toss them out though. Same for the vast majority of people who play video games too. :crying:

This stuff may be our hobby, our love, our obsession, our passion, etc and clearly we as a sub-culture still aren't as respected as sports as a sub-culture or what have you but at some point in the future I strongly feel it will be taken serious to the point where the Smithsonian will be scrambling to acquire pieces from the likes of us (assuming they aren't or already haven't). Though don't hold out hope that your stash of E.T. 2600 carts will be worth a few million.

[Vosse]

Well from a collector's point of view this is a nightmare.
Indeed, It's already bad enough that PSOne games scratch easier than 99% of CD/DVD based games on the face of the earth.
I have games that i've boughten new, kept only in the original case and played once to completion with the disc never being removed from the console until it was completed, covered in scratches even though i've never even remotely touched the the data surface , nor set it on something that would scratch it.

[Segata Sanshiro]

We'll probably all be dead before this actually matters. Or perhaps it's more to do with the climate? All of my games are as they were when I bought them..

[angelwolf71885]

We'll probably all be dead before this actually matters. Or perhaps it's more to do with the climate? All of my games are as they were when I bought them..

that very true nothing like the high humidity of new york flordia or california to ruin a cd or game

i remember the old colored memorex CD-R's i live in Florida
and the reflective layer got rot holes in a matter of 3 months
but ones kept in AC did perfectly fine fore a year or two
the black CD-R's degraded the fastest if you were wondering

[KH2K4]

I don't know if it's been improved but the last time I tried WiiSX round at a mates house I was getting at best 10 fps with Motor Toon GP 2. I just don't see the point in emulating the PSX on anything other than the PSP or a PC. Yes, some games look very nice via Bleemcast but is that reason enough to rape the shit out of your DC's laser?



Why, exactly? The units are in such plentiful supply and so cheap as to be disposable. When one fails you just cannibalise what you can, bin the rest and move on to the next console. It's the same with the Saturn, the Dreamcast, the original Xbox and the PlayStation 2, there are more than enough units to far and away supply demand.

What did you exspect it's a beta version afterall nothing is fully compatible it'll only get better with time, it's based off pcsx-r afterall ;-) you can run the games from HDD, SD, USB "I think" already and possibly later LAN no need for a laser and you don't risk scratching your discs not only that but loading times will be reduced not to mention viewing it through better cables in forced 480P with component cables, the best the ps1 can offer is RGB-Scart at 576I?. Check out gc-forever.com if you require more info the guys are in it for the long run :clap:
Last time I checked it I managed a full playthrough of Dino Crisis 2 at 30-40fps via SD and that was with the gamecube version CubeSX with lesser memory than the Wii, simply amazing work :pray:

Back on topic what's the best material to clean discs with as to not leave scratches? something that's completely flat smooth without any loose fibres, I'm thinking polyester, nylon, silk or those car cloths.
Oddly enough football and rugby team shirts seem to be the best material to clean with but who wants to spend £40-60 on a expensive cloth?

[Cyantist]

We'll probably all be dead before this actually matters. Or perhaps it's more to do with the climate? All of my games are as they were when I bought them..

I will attest to this. My copy of MGS was played ALOT but looked after and their are only miniscule scratches. No burn in from fingerprints or anything.

[Cyantist]

Back on topic what's the best material to clean discs with as to not leave scratches? something that's completely flat smooth without any loose fibres, I'm thinking polyester, nylon, silk or those car cloths.
Oddly enough football and rugby team shirts seem to be the best material to clean with but who wants to spend £40-60 on a expensive cloth?

Microfibre cloths. The type that come with new glasses

[KH2K4]

I thought microfibre cloths where for cleaning car glass which i've tried before but they soak up the water too quickly and stick to the disc slightly dragging it and making hairline scratches. Microfibre cloth for glasses? all the materials i've seen them use have those crimped edges and loose fibres which stick to the disc which you then end up scratching the disc to get off.

[APE]

Kevlar is a microfiber material for all that it matters.

I'm looking at the cloth that came with my most recent pair of glasses and all I can tell you for sure is that Crizal did the anti-glare coating I paid good money for (should've sprung for the anti-scratch coating too, cest la vie) and the cloth itself has their logo with mention of having Scotchguard applied to the cloth. I'd have to imagine that it is in fact a microfiber cloth of some type and probably would be good at cleaning fingerprints off discs.

I wouldn't want to use a ShamWow on my discs though given it was engineered for fluid absorption and mainly demonstrated on materials that are scratch resistant (glass, carpet, etc) and not for use cleaning the sensitive components of consumer electronics. At least I never saw Vince push it for cleaning LCD screens but I have used the cloth that came with my glasses on my DSi XL and laptop screen without a second though.