Sega Saturn Kiosk Reset Circuit Board

[skateforjondoe]

On my Saturn kiosk I have a reset button that I cannot seem to get working. On the back of the kiosk there is some kind of control board for reseting the system.

The reset button is wired to to the board. There are two wires, one red and one black, which I am assuming it is positive and negative.

There is a cable that at one end is a regular Saturn controller cord that plugs into the Saturn controller port. And the other end is a nine wire connector that plugs into "Jack #1" on the reset board.

There are also two standard Saturn controller ports on the reset board that says "TO CONTROL PAD"

There is gunk on the back of the board because the the sticky pad that held it on the back of the kiosk. (it came like that)

I have the USA NTSC black Saturn with the circle shaped power and reset buttons.

How can I get it working?

For Pictures go to http://s992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/Digital_Anthrax/

Thanks in advance :)

[Dreamcast]

Unique design. It looks like they're using the board as a multitap of sorts. Similar to the Dreamcast, if you hold down all of the buttons on a Saturn and press start, the system goes back to the system screen (soft resets). What the board essentially does is when you press the reset button, it triggers a timer which then sends the button sequence as if the player had pressed the buttons to soft reset the system. It looks like your board is set to reset after two minutes. Try pressing the button and wait that time to see if it resets.

[skateforjondoe]

Just making sure, you know the reset button that is wired to the reset board is on the actual kiosk. (I'm not talking about the reset button on the Saturn system.) I think you knew that though.

And I have tried that. It still will not work. Any other ideas?

Thanks :)

[Dreamcast]

Yes, the reset button on the kiosk unit is what I was referring to. It plugs into the part that has the minute timing marks, right?

Does the controller work passing through the reset board? If so, the first step is to ensure the button still works. After being subjected to a retail environment, it may have just gone bad.

If you have an Ohm meter (or, a battery, some wire, and a small lightbulb / LED) and can check continuity of the switch, you should see conduction when the switch is either pressed / released and nothing the other way (released / pressed).

If the switch is bad, the next step is to find a replacement and determine what type the reset switch is. If it's normally open, the reset triggers when you complete the circuit by jumping both pins together. If it's normally closed, the circuit is looking for an open in the circuit by unbridging the two pins. To check this, use a piece of wire or something that conducts (if you have a spare hard drive / cd-rom drive, they usually have a jumper or two you could borrow) and short the pins together. If nothing happens, turn off the console and short the pins together. Turn the console back on and remove the jumper. If it resets, it's a normally closed switch, otherwise it's a normally open switch.

[skateforjondoe]

Yeah It plugs into the minute timing marks.
Yes, the controller works passing through the reset board.

I'll give your method a try tomorrow and update you.

Thank you :)

[skateforjondoe]

I just tested the switch/button with an Ohm meter and the switch is working. The switch is "open" normally and when I press the button it closes the circuit.

What would be the next step?

[Dreamcast]

Not completely sure, I'm afraid. :/ Since the controller ports work through the board and the switch is good, either there's a special way you need to press the button (press and hold it in for a few seconds, etc) or the kiosk used a special kiosk edition console that is looking for a unique keycode combination made to reset the game and not go back to the system screen like the retail console does.

[skateforjondoe]

Ya.. I'd assume that they have a special kiosk edition console.

I have tried pressing the button a few times, pressing and holding, and such.

Also, when the board cable from the board to the console is hooked into port 2 of the Saturn console rather than port 1, neither one of the "TO CONTROLLER PAD" ports work on the board.

Another thing is that when the board cable from the board to the consoles controller port 1 is hooked up, only one of the two ports on the board work.(it's always the same one) I am assuming that is because the game I tried it on was in the 1 player mode.

[Dreamcast]

Everything with the controllers looks like it's operating correctly. You're right that the console only uses the first controller port for multitaps and single player games. You would need a two player game to see if the second port works.

On second thought regarding the switch, it might not be the hardware as much as it is the software. It's very possible that the unit used a kiosk demo disc that looked for the command the reset board was sending to go back to either the main demo selection screen or reset the console.

A quick search didn't yield any information, but someone here might know if such a disc exists.

[skateforjondoe]

What part of the forum should I ask if those discs exist and if there is a special kiosk edition console?

[Dreamcast]

Either general gaming or probably rare and obscure gaming would yield the best results.

[skateforjondoe]

User: Yakumo said they are just the normal Saturn system. And he also said, there is no special kiosk disc or kiosk demo disc.
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25561
Do you think any demo disc would work? If so, I can try to dig one up.
Or, do you have any ideas on what I could try?

[Dreamcast]

I'm not really sure where to start on that one. It's possible some demos were made with the kiosk in mind and others weren't. If someone can remember playing on a kiosk and the game that was being played, that would really help.

To the question in the other thread about what the board returns at a digital level, if the thinking that it's a key combination is correct, it will be a value of these combined button to reset the console (back to the system screen - if there's a combination to soft reset the game, I'm not sure what that is): press / hold a, b, c, x, y and z and press the start button. You have to wait until the game loads up a bit, though.

If a working demo disc can't be found, a SEGA Saturn to USB converter might yield some results. When you use an application PC side (Windows has a feature that lets you check button presses through Control Panel), you can see if it's a key combination that's being returned when you press the reset button. If nothing registers when you press the reset button, it's possible that it's not a keycode, but rather a flag that's handled at a lower level.

[retro]

Wow, this is getting a bit hard to follow over three threads!

Firstly, congratulations on your purchase! I've had several opportunities to buy a US kiosk, but shipping to the UK is prohibitively expensive!

I don't remember the kiosks ever resetting by a button. What they DID do was play a game for a set period, and then reset automatically. That's what your board does. The reason it has controller ports is that, as mentioned, it uses the A+B+C+START reset method, no doubt. The board is like a pass-through for the pad when it isn't resetting the console.

JP1 is a jumper, used to select how long it is before the console resets. The pin configuration looks a bit odd (maybe it is factory set to a particular time). Putting a switch on it should NOT reset the console.

My guess is that the switch is either not implemented, or was intended for a modded Saturn which perhaps you don't have.

[Dreamcast]

The main thing that makes it seem like the switch is supposed to go there is that the board has a coupling connector there that matches both the color and style of the switch's connector.

I think what happened is they repurposed the board from when there wasn't an actual kiosk cabinet. The store maybe originally had to hide the console in a cabinet or something themselves, and the board was a way to automatically restart.

When the kiosk unit we see today came around, they reprogrammed the board. Instead of checking each jumper to see if the internal timer matched the value there, they set it to automatically reset the system as soon as it detected a closed connection on the second jumper (just an arbitrary choice as far as I can tell).

[retro]

It can't reset, though! Think about it from a design point of view.

A+B+C+Start are pressed = reset

The circuit does two things: counts to a predetermined limit, then activates said reset procedure.

Those jumpers were for setting the timer... therefore shorting them (with a switch) will just set the timer. It won't skip the timer circuit and activate the reset.

[Dreamcast]

No, my thinking is that the programmable chip itself was programmed to function differently. So, instead of checking if the limit is reached, it just goes ahead and resets if it detects a short. Electrically and design-wise, the circuit can remain unchanged in that case.

The problem though is that, as you pointed out, it's not resetting. That leads to my other thinking that it's not sending a standard reset combination, because they didn't want it to return to the system screen, but rather, just reset the game. If that's true, there must be a demo disc somewhere that understands that combination. The only way to confirm this is to get a USB adapter and check the returned combination PC-side or run some homebrew code on the Saturn to see what's being sent.

[alecjahn]

No, my thinking is that the programmable chip itself was programmed to function differently. So, instead of checking if the limit is reached, it just goes ahead and resets if it detects a short. Electrically and design-wise, the circuit can remain unchanged in that case.

The problem though is that, as you pointed out, it's not resetting. That leads to my other thinking that it's not sending a standard reset combination, because they didn't want it to return to the system screen, but rather, just reset the game. If that's true, there must be a demo disc somewhere that understands that combination. The only way to confirm this is to get a USB adapter and check the returned combination PC-side or run some homebrew code on the Saturn to see what's being sent.

Well, wait now. Is resetting of the system (as in the action on the system's behalf, not the user's) a hardware or software function? If it's the latter, then the reset combination could be the same and that the board just isn't cooperating, right?

I'd think if the software is what is listening for the button combo, then there's a chance that the reset process could possibly be controlled similarly.


I do agree, that the way to find out, is to get it plugged into a controller test program and hit the button. Is there a homebrew one somewhere?

[Dreamcast]

That's hard to say (regarding hardware / software). The system only allows a soft-reset back to the system menu after the "licensed by" screen. One of two things could be happening there. Once control is handed off to the game, it starts looking for the reset combination, or the controller port's protocol handles the reset call but the system blocks its request until an application is running.

If I had to choose one, I'd say software so the developer could override it in the event that button combination would need to be used in the game.

[retro]

Oh dear, we seem to be speculating here.

The Saturn effects the reset by the pressing of those buttons. The SMPC handles resets (and actually, has reset enable/disable commands). The reset button is a hardware reset and the A+B+C+START is a software reset.

This is all irrelevant, though, as the Sega Saturn Software Development Standards state:


8.4.1. Reset Implementation Requirement

Required Compliance Item

A reset must be executable from any screen, except during backup memory device operations (i.e., clear, save, remove). High scores, passwords and options settings must not be cleared if the reset is executed during the Main Game state.

In short, if a game doesn't allow reset, it doesn't get published.

[alecjahn]

The Saturn effects the reset by the pressing of those buttons. The SMPC handles resets (and actually, has reset enable/disable commands). The reset button is a hardware reset and the A+B+C+START is a software reset.

There we go.

[retro]

Yes, but you CAN'T disable the software reset in your game apart from memory operations, or Sega won't clear the game.

As you stated, the console is sitting there looking for that button sequence, and all the board does is act as a pass-through and activate that sequence every x minutes. Running it on the pad tester would show whether the circuit is working, yes.

SFJD, when you tested the button did you just give it a jab and then give up? It could be that the timer circuit IS still active and one of the following is possible:


The button starts the countdown timer. Each time you push it, you reset the countdown. (In which case, press it and wait 2 minutes)
The button replaces a jumper, which must be in place to start the countdown. (In which case, hold the button down for 2 minutes)

[Dreamcast]

Yes, he mentions trying a couple of different methods:


I have tried pressing the button a few times, pressing and holding, and such.

I really don't think it's timed, though. The button is on the front of the unit, accessible to the player. I don't think anyone would want to hold a button for two minutes or would even know that's what you're supposed to do :icon_bigg.

I put together a test application I'll post up here in a bit that you can run on the Saturn to see what buttons are being pressed. And Retro is right, I had to add in my own routine for the ABC-start soft reset, so it is done through the software on the Saturn.

[retro]

Bit of an update. Here's a pic of another unit:

http://triumphguide.com/assembler/photo2.jpg

As you can see, it has the same jumper pins and the same code on the chips. That suggests to me that the chips are one and the same, so I really don't think yours has been reprogrammed.

He doesn't have a Saturn to try it on, yet... I'll keep you updated, though.

Incidentally, the original television in the kiosk was a Samsung TXE2045.

[skateforjondoe]

Okay.. I'm bringing this thread back to life.
I was confused with the reset method of my Saturn. Dreamcast told me I need to press/hold A+B+C+X+Y+Z Start. However, that is the wrong combination. Retro was right about pressing/holding only A+B+C Start. That takes me from inside a game to the title screen of the game. The game I used was Night Warriors Darkstalkers' Revenge. NOTE: This worked with the controller with the analogue stick and it was hooked directly up to the saturn. The reset board was not even connected to any part of the Saturn console.

@Dreamcast I don't understand what your are saying about the program you made. So with this program running It will see what buttons are activated/emulated when I press the kiosk reset button? So are you saying that by pressing the kiosk reset button it is SUPPOSED to emulate the A+B+C Start (soft reset)?

@retro I've tried very many different ways of pressing the kiosk reset button like holding the kiosk reset button down or waiting for it to shut off by itself.

What does SMPC mean

@Dreamcast Can you give me the test program you made?
@retro any updates on the guy with the Saturn kiosk reset board?

What's the next step :)
Thanks so much for the help :) :) :)

[Dreamcast]

What controller did you use for the reset? Retro is right about ABC+start being the only buttons you need, but adding XYZ on a NiGHTS controller works too.

SMPC is the "system manager and peripheral control" chipset.

As for the software, yes, that's exactly what it does. If my guess about the reset board's functionality is right, the board will send out the soft reset sequence when the reset button is pressed. The application just polls the input until there's something there and then displays it.

Since the reset board looks like a multitap, the application was set so it can read up to the maximum supported controllers incase the sequence, if sent at all, is sent on any port other than the first two.

I've attached the test application to this post (ISO image). As usual, the swap trick is needed to get the application to run.

[skateforjondoe]

@Dreamcast I used the NiGHTS controller to soft reset using the A+B+C Start button sequence NOTE: The kiosk reset board was not hooked up at that time.
I'll give the program a try after I go see Shutter Island

UPDATE:This controller is the one I used
http://zhooibaal.files.wordpress.com/2006/09/sega_saturn_analog_controller.jpg

[retro]

You don't need the reset board to reset the Saturn. It's a feature built in every Saturn

A+B+C+Start = reset. That's hard coded into the system, and every game HAD to support it, or Sega wouldn't publish it.

All the board does is count to x seconds and press A+B+C+Start. Without a pad. It also works as a pass-through for the pad - much like the aerial socket in your VCR. You still get a signal on your TV even if you're not tuned into the VCR channel, because there's a pass-through.

Put simply, the system is waiting for that combination command for a reset. It neither knows nor cares what kind of device does it. You should be able to hook the board up to the Saturn without a pad and still have it reset.

[skateforjondoe]

@Dreamcast Thank you so much for taking the time to write that program. I will try it in a week or two when my Saturn modchip arrives(i don't like the idea of duct taping my Saturn to do the swap trick)

@retro You said
"You should be able to hook the board up to the Saturn without a pad and still have it reset."
When you said pad, did you mean my NiGHTS controller? And to do a soft reset, do I need to be past the games main menu? Before I try what you said, I need to solder the red wire back onto the kiosk reset button(it fell off)
Thank you too, retro.

[skateforjondoe]

Okay so I fixed it up and I figured out that If I do a controller reset before the game loads or at the main menu, it will go back to the Saturn system menu. If I do a controller reset when I am playing a game(past the main menu) It resets the game. These results are from the NiGHTS controller being hooked up through the kiosk reset board but will also work when the NiGHTS controller is hooked directly to the Saturn.

[skateforjondoe]

@retro Are you sure the TV is a Samsung Model TXE2045 ? I just want to know before I buy one on Craigslist.
Thanks :)

[Dreamcast]

Any update on reset board testing?

[skateforjondoe]

Nope. But... I just bought a Saturn modchip off Racketboy.com less than 1 minute ago. Then I will test.

[skateforjondoe]

@retro I'm still looking for the TXE2045 Samsung TV on Craigslist. So far, no luck.

[skateforjondoe]

Okay I got the mod chip, installed it and it's working great!
@Dreamcast I tested your Controller Tester Program. When the Saturn controller is hooked directly to port 1 or 2 on the console all buttons work. When the kiosk reset circuit board is plugged into port 1 or 2 on the console and a Saturn controller to 1 or 2 on the kiosk reset circuit board that all works.
When I press the kiosk reset button the screen flashes then shows a screen saying "Connect a controller to continue", but only for about 20 seconds, then it returns to the Controller Tester Program and stays there. I can keep repeating what I did but the result is the same. No matter how long I wait after pressing the kiosk reset button it will not reset the console. And when I hold the kiosk reset button down it tells me to reconnect the controller and I keep holding it down and 20 seconds later it goes back to the controller test program.Repeats. and even after a minute it still repeats.

When I am in a game and press the kiosk reset button it will also pause the game.

Any ideas? What now? I'm not ready to give up. :)

[Dreamcast]

Which game are you using for testing? Have you tried unplugging a normal controller in the same game? Some games pause when you remove a controller incase it was removed by mistake.

When you say "repeats and even after a minute, it still repeats", are you saying the "connect a controller" screen keeps showing up even if the button isn't pressed again?

That's very odd that pressing the reset button causes a disconnect to occur. Again, it would be important to know the types of games played on the kiosk units. If they only used special demo discs, maybe that was what they used to signal a special reset since unplugging a controller isn't something that could be done by the player.

[skateforjondoe]

I have tried it in Night Warriors: Darkstalker's Revenge.
I have tried unplugging the controller in NWDR and it will pause.

No, It has to be pressed to activate show that screen OR it has to be held down and then it will keep showing that screen every 20 seconds.

Thanks :)

[Dreamcast]

Very odd. I'm not sure what's going on. The check for a controller's presence is done by checking a system variable that counts the number of connected peripherals. If it's not a fault in the SDK's peripheral polling routine(s), the reset board is doing something very unexpected.

[skateforjondoe]

@Dreamcast and @retro I just bought another kiosk (same exact kind) and it came with the kiosk reset circuit board. I'm going to fiddle around with it tomorrow and see if I have any luck reseting with the kiosk reset button.

[skateforjondoe]

@Dreamcast and @retro I just tried Virtua Cop Not for Resale on my new kiosk with it's kiosk reset board and no luck.
@Dreamcast I also tried the controller button test program you made me and it gives me the same message when I press the kiosk reset button.("please connect controller to continue")
Any thoughts?

Oh and @retro did your buddy ever get a Saturn to test his kiosk reset board? And would he know why is there two velcro pads on each side of this part of the kiosk?
961
A close up
960

[skateforjondoe]

Sorry for the triple post.
@retro There are two speakers housed inside the top part of the kiosk that are held down with U brackets. On one of the speakers there is a jack/output for a subwoofer; however I see no sub woofer or even a place that might’ve held down one. Can you ask your friend about this too?
Thanks :)