"Piracy" war room, all stances invited

[Calpis]

Thought it'd be productive to have a place where everyone could rant about this issue, please support your opinion coherently and use facts if possible. I'm tired of hearing "damn f.ucking pirating bastard", I'm not enlightened. Talk about legal technicalities and ethics. Someone start already!

[ServiceGames]

I think that the reason that we did not have a piracy thread is because the majority of the board users are collectors and as good collectors we do not own backups. We're the type who not only want to experience the game, we want to experience everything that encompasses the game. Including packaging, artwork, and any extras that may be found. Overall we are more about 'owning' a game than just playing through a game.

[A. Snow]

Here are my personal rules for the justification/hypocrisy of pirating.

Games: I never pirate current gen systems but I do consider games for them that are never released on my side of the pond to be fair game. Same with betas or never released games. As for older systems like SNES, Sega CD, and especially MAME I consider to be fair game. I supported most of these systems when they were thriving. Why should I stop enjoying them when their considered dead. If the IDSA had a website where I could order any game that was on any system I would never pirate games again.

Music: I try not to download more than two or three songs from a mainstream album. I look at it as no different than when a band releases single on TV or radio except that I pick the songs. Classical, Import, Music from a TV show or commercial that you just can't get out of your head (It took me forever to find the music from the Metroid Prime and Panzer Dragoon Orta commercials) are fair game. As for videogames I figure if I bought the game with the music I should be able to listen the music when I want.

Movies/TV: I don't consider downloading an episode of a TV show to be any different than if I recorded it on my VCR. The only difference is the format it is on. As for movies If like the movie I'll end up buying the DVD. If I hate the movie then it's off the hard drive but I will at least rent it once.

As for what I do consider true piracy. Going to a rental store just copy movies and games is piracy to me. Selling for personal profit isn't just piracy it's flat out theft and should be punished. I also frown on people who pirate everything and never contribute a cent to the people who make it.

Of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Hawanja]

You know, I tend to side with Mr. Snow on most of the issue.

I don't really see P2P networking as "piracy" per se, becasue no one is making a profit off of it (except for maybe Kazza.) Back before Morpheous or napster people just copied songs onto blank tapes and shared them that way, the only difference now is that through P2P it's world wide. The record companies made a big stink about blank tapes too but that didn't drive them out of business.

However I am well aware that the music industry has changed for the worse becasue of P2P networking. Anyone who's in a band trying to break big knows all about this. If you thought it was hard to get signed before.... But still, sharing MP3's and such doesn't seem like it's going to drive Warner Bros. or Virgin out of business anytime soon, and the first record company that starts making money off it will be the one that takes over. This is the new technological paradigm that the music of the future will be distributed by, and those who fall behind will be eleiminated. That's how free markets work.

Still, I am an Emule whore. I usually have a dosen downloads going at once (keeping it small to avoid attracting attention to myself.) But I still buy CDs and DVDs all the time. I tend to only download rare stuff that isn't commercially availible, like live concerts or subtitled Asian films/anime.

As for games: I will not buy a pirated game for a current system. If I see some fool selling bootlegged X-Box disks I report the bastard. That guy is taking money directly from the people who work hard to provide my hobby. For the same reason I do not download any commercially availible ROMs for current systems, or buy bootlegged DVDs off the street. These are the guys the movie/record companies should be going after, not suing P2P users at random.

But ROMS for discontinued systems are fine. I don't see any problem with that. It's not like the company is making money off it anyway. But still I prefer to have the real thing in my hands playing on the real console like it was intended. I think it cuts out some of the experience when playing an NES game on an emulator.

[Evangelion-01]

jrock ownz :smt017

[karsten]

I admit that i have nothing against piracy.

i have various copyes, tought these copyies are only the game i would never have buyed. the game i like are all originals.

and sharing is nice :smt043

and i hate music companies.. i'll never buy a CD for 25 Euros :snipe:

[AntiPasta]

indeed, CD's are just way too fricken expensive where I live. When I was 'Stateside I noticed most audio CDs were $15, even some limited editions! In Holland though new releases are 20e (sometimes even 22e, and the limited editions being more expensive if you can find them) and then they make a big fuss about it when the price drops to 18e :axe:

I *do* buy CD's from my fav bands though, now if only I had bought that LE Accelerated Evolution album by Devin Townsend when I saw it for $15 in Philadelphia :Hangman:

[halo]

Can I just say this:

You want to talk about copies? Go to a forum where people don't spend a lot of money COLLECTING GAMES. Not difficult. Please don't discuss any pirate games inssues here otherwise the forum will get ruined.

Sure. emulation/copied games can occasionally come in useful. But I don't want to talk about it here. I wanna talk about the hundreds of original games I own, weird obscure stuff etc. There is also no kudos associated with downloading a game and burning it. There are plenty of forums and IRC channels about pirated/emulated... go there.

Jusitification is stupid:
"But games are too expensive where I live" :smt015 I don't have a job, I'm a student. I own several hundred games.
"I can't find the game!" :smt015 Maybe this is some justification if it's a beta or someting particularly rare, but thanks to the internet the majority of games can be picked up easily and cheaply.
"It's the same as buying a preowned game" :smt015 No... no it isn't. Y'see, the games industry as a whole includes the games stores where most preowned games are sold. No-one makes any money out of copies... except the CD-R and DVD-R burner/media producers. Preowned games are reselling original copies, too, which must have had a purchaser in the first place.

Now can we all shut up about goddamn piracy and talk about something worthwhile? Keep this argument elsewhere.

[TheDeathcoaster]

I like Pirates, they have cool beards and search for treasure :smt023 But seriously now, I do own some copied games (mostly NTSC Playstation titles I got before they came out over here in Scotland) and have always tried to buy the official copies ^_^ I disagree with piracy of videogames UNLESS it is seriously just to test before buying OR t is due to securing an original copy costs too much (e.g. I would buy a pirate Panzer Dragoon Saga due to the price of that game being too high). But people who pirate common games :smt011

[Metal_4evr]

This is a perfectly legitimate discussion. Piracy is part of the games industry whether you like it or not. I don't get ROMS of current consoles but stuff out of production is fair game. The developers have already made money off of that game for that particular system so they are not losing money from it if it is out of production. Whether there is a newer version on a current system does not matter. The experience is different on every console so saying I shouldn't download REZ for DC (for example) because I can buy it for PS2 holds no merit. Most I intend to buy anyways but where can you rent DC or SNES or Genesis games for instance.

[halo]

The experience is different on every console so saying I shouldn't download REZ for DC (for example) because I can buy it for PS2 holds no merit. .

You shouldn't download Rez for DC anyway because when they ripped the game they lowered the sound quality for it to fit on a CD, rather than a 1.5gig GD-ROM. Enjoy low sound quality now!

Piracy is piracy whether the system is dead, the games impossible to get, or whatever. It's always ethically bad... there is no justification. Live with this.

[Yakumo]

I'm now downloading an ISO of Shikigami No Shiro 2 for the Dreamcast so that I don't have to keep opening my original. Now, is this classed as pairacy? I DO own the original as many here know so aren't I entitled to make a back up for private use? If not then I guess I'm a pirate but I see no harm in what I'm doing. I've bought the game so Sega have my cash. I wouldn't buy a second so I don't ruin my first copy so a back up is the way to go. What views do some of you guys have on this?

Oh, before anyone asks, NO I won't tell you where you can download it from. Go and buy Shikigami No Shiro 2 you leechinn gits :smt019

Yakumo

[LeGIt]

Nothing wrong with downloading a dc game which you allready own and wish to boot on your dc imo - however if you was to download a saturn game (you have the game for playstation but NOT saturn) then imo that's a very big NONO!

I have no problem with people downloading 'backups' provided they exclusively download the exact game for the exact system version they own - it's the assholes with lame excuses lie they want to try before they buy, preview or simply just be lame and play for free without any ownership or intention for ownership of originals which are the scourge of the planet - they should be extradited then executed :snipe:

Im also against mod chipping - a modded console is proven from years of experience to be less reliable and could possibly reduce system life aswell as void the warranty, but on top of all that a modded console isnt even worth 2nd hand crapped-on bog roll. if you want to play jap games buy a jap machine. if you want to emulate, then you should be emulating only original games you own for the format of emulator - i doubt many people even own a bunch of arcade cabinets in there bedroom (most ppl dont even own a jamma board + roms) so stuff like mame is a big no no imo :P

[Chief Chujo]

I think that is bullshit(buying only originals for obsolete systems).
Why the hell should I have to pay the insane prices on eBay for RS and Panzer Saga. The only person benifiting off it is the fuckwit selling said games for $200+.
If all I want to do is play the great games that I never got a chance to buy(because of Australia being treated like shit) why should I pay some eBayer a stupid amount of money.

Regarding current systems. If a game isn't released in Australia I pirate it. If there going to treat Australia like it's a backwater country I'm not going to pay an importer double the price to get the game.

[SuperFunkNinjaYoshiiKun]

I reckon that unreleased games are fair game. Otherwise we'd never get to experience Halflife, PBA Bowling, Prop Arena and hopefully more (GP500?) on the :prayer: Dreamcast. If i'd spent 2 yrs making a game, I'd be pretty pissedoff if it got cancelled. In fact, I'd probably 'acquire' a final beta and rip n' release it myself......

As for modchips, 99% of owners use them for piracy. The only legitimate modchips, until recently, were Xbox mods to allow Linux loading. But now you can flash the BIOS with Cromwell and the 007trick. I find the hacked 4981/M7 BIOSs very usefull for runnning XBMC.

At the end of the day, ppl hack, because they can. Ppl rip, because they can. And leechers leech, because they can. Not every one knows where to get 'backups' from off the internet, which is why in every office/factory/town there's a 'Dave the DVD man'. Someone who knows his stuff, and then sells CD/sDVDs/PS2/Xbox everything to his friends/family/workmates. I know a chap who payed off his mortgage yrs ago by pirating Playstation games. These are the ppl taking the piss, and need to have their monkeyasses kicked. :smt027

[Johnny]

I'm not gonna say i support piracy, but i can't blame people that prefer it to the original

A PS2 game in brazil cost from 150 to 250 Reais (50 to 84 bucks aproximatelly).

Mostly because Sony, Microsoft and now Nintendo don't release their products here, not even with the help of a distributor. So they can't complain of piracy in Brazil, when their products don't even were released here. All consoles and games in brazil, except for PC games, are imported.

If they only imported the consoles and manufactured the DVD's here the price would go way down, making people think twice before buying the pirate. I'm not gonna say it would end the piracy (this will never end) but it would be lower and those companies would sell more, making more profit.

[Yceman]

I must say that I don't feel guilty downloading an iso of Radiant Silvergun to play on my Saturn, instead of paying US$150 for a used copy of it
Of course I'd love to have originals for RSG and PDS, but I simply can't afford them.

[s0urce]

Support the companies who make good games and if you life in a kinda poor country and can't afford lot's of original games you wouldn't have bought them anyway cause you got no money.But mass downloading will destroy your gaming fun rapidly and you won't know how to appreciate a good game anymore.If you got the money and really want the game go and buy it,game developers don't life of love and air ;-)

The prices a saw in the last weeks for some games here are insanely low (I life in Germany).Like good GBA games new for 10EUR or GC games for 15EUR.

[AntiPasta]

then Germany is certainly cheaper than Holland... granted, I did see a few GC/Xbox/PS2 games for 10-20e today but I got an inkling that they're stolen... it's called 'black market' for a reason :butthead:



You shouldn't download Rez for DC anyway because when they ripped the game they lowered the sound quality for it to fit on a CD, rather than a 1.5gig GD-ROM. Enjoy low sound quality now!

Guess what, the PS2 version of Rez is a CD game... so maybe the DC version wasnt that big either.

[Greatsaintlouis]

it's the assholes with lame excuses lie they want to try before they buy, preview

Guess that makes me an asshole then.. :smt043

I have, assuming people don't think I'm just lying, a rather uncommon (I think) stance on piracy and such things. I am a huge fan of original packaging and cd artwork, and there are only a few reasons why I will download games, movies, and music.

Games: So I can try them out. Now before anyone starts crying foul, let me explain. Most of the games I want to try are either Japanese, or for systems that you can't rent games for, like the Dreamcast or Saturn. So, I could shell out the $30-60 or more on eBay or whatever to try out a game on the chance that I like it, or I could invest $.25 for a CD-R and try the thing out. I would much rather own an original then a crappy-looking CD-R with downsampled sound and no artwork save for the title written in black marker. As I am able to get original games, I toss out my CD-R - I'd rather play the originals anyways. There is one exception - screw the assholes that are trying to pass off Panzer Dragoon Saga or Radiant Silvergun for $150+. That is a rediculous price for games that aren't really that rare, and my owning burned copies of those games is only hurting the wankers trying to pass them off for that price, not Treasure, who only probably charged $60 at the most for it.

Emulation: The main amount of games I emulate are arcade games. Aside from Pac-Man, 19XX, and Bust-A-Move (Puzzle Bobble), none of the arcade roms I have have a machine anywhere near me that I have been able to find. I still go to the arcades regularly and play games, so it isn't like I'm playing the games on my computer instead of paying for them. The only ones I emulate are ones that I cannot find around here. I don't really think I'm stealing from any potential arcade profits that way. The console systems I emulate are only the Genesis and Super NES, and these are, again, only until I'm able to come across hard copy versions of the games.

Movies/TV shows: Grainy quality, sound syncing problems.... I'd much rather spend the few bucks to see the movie in theatres or rent it. The only exceptions really are anime. I usually download the stuff that is on TV in Japan, so again it's no worse than someone copying the program to their VCR. If I have a favorite series, I will attempt to buy the DVDs, but I usually end up getting a pirate DVD from Hong Kong. Yeah, it's cheap and underhanded, but there is a very good reason. Here in the US, anime DVDs are priced between $25 and $35 - a fairly steep price. The thing is, they only include 4 or so episodes per disc, requireing you to spend around $200 for a full series of DVDs here. My example is FLCL (Fooly Cooly). The entire thing is 6 episodes long, and all 6 can fit on one DVD, as I ordered one from Hong Kong before it was released here. FLCL here has 3 DVDs for $30 a piece with 2 episodes on them. That is bullshite, and I am not going to support overpricing like that.

Music: It's been a while since I've happened upon a quality album in which I liked every song. Music is getting to the point now where you are paying for 2 or 3 good songs and 8 or so crappy ones. All the albums I've liked, I've bought, and if I just like individual songs, I download them or buy them off of iTunes. Music is, again, like anime, in that the original artists recieve so little from the sales of an album, that most of the cds you buy are going to support record label workers and RIAA staff. Despite the fact that the RIAA here in the US is suing the hell out of its customers for not buying their overpriced shite, this is my little way of saying that I'm not going to spend a ridiculous $15-$18 on a cd witha few good songs that only benefits a few already rich people.

Wow, that was long.

[LeGIt]

Of course I'd love to have originals for RSG and PDS, but I simply can't afford them.

If you cant afford them and you havent got the originals then you have no legal rights whatsoever to use a backup of a game you do not even own :Hangman:

[Metal_4evr]

Legality has never stopped anyone. What really should be a crime is inflating the price of games to ridiculous levels.


You shouldn't download Rez for DC anyway because when they ripped the game they lowered the sound quality for it to fit on a CD, rather than a 1.5gig GD-ROM. Enjoy low sound quality now!

The sound quality difference isn't really noticible to me anyways because I play it on a crappy 12 year old MONO tv.

[LeGIt]

Also - a GD-ROM is 1.2Gb NOT 1.5Gb - and besides , if more people bought games instead of being lamers dling them then they could afford to lower the prices

[Greatsaintlouis]

if more people bought games instead of being lamers dling them then they could afford to lower the prices

Actually, games have always retailed for $40-$60, so it's not like there's a huge markup due to "piracy". And while you're entitled to your opinion on this issue, that doesn't make any of us who take the try-before-you-buy approach "lamers" or "assholes", got it?

And on the issue of PDS and RS, again, they are being sold for prices that do NOT go back to the original developers, and therefore it's a far different issue than "X game costs too much in the store so I'm going to pirate it". Now if they were readily available in stores for a real price (>$60) that's one thing, but all the copies you see for these stupid inflated prices come from people who want to line their pockets at others' expense. I think the "you can't afford it, so don't play it" thing is a very elitist thing to say, and its what allows these people to keep scamming us with their stupid prices. Radiant Silvergun is by no means rare, judging by the fact that there are always at least 6 copies on eBay here, and while it is a good game, there's no reason that people should charge $150 for it except greed. THAT'S what I have a problem with. Using the "if you can't afford it, don't mess with it" defense to hide behind is just a way to ensure that these greedy people keep making their money. I'm sure if there were enough people willing to say, "Your price is ridiculous, I have a CD-R copy", that game would be priced reasonably.

It just sounds to me that the majority of voices here are in unison about being willing to pay for things at their intended prices, but not when jacked up by importers or eBay 'collectors' or anything else.

[Calpis]

I like backups because I like to own everything I can digitally. I for one like to own very few originals and lots of files :) I can pack significantly more into my space.

Also I find it funny that I do not play any of the CD backups I "own" (if you could call it that.) By looking at whats currently connected to my TV you'd think it were 1993.

[A. Snow]

LeGIt I take the exact opposite when it comes to MAME. In the US the arcade is pretty much dead. My town has 50,000 people and there isn't one traditional arcade here anymore. This isn't because of piracy. It's because home consoles have surpassed the arcade in graphics.
I download MAME roms because I miss the old arcade days of youth. I truly believe that without MAME nine out of ten of these games would fade into history. Not to mention the fact that without MAME I've gotten to play some great games the I never knew existed and would've never gotten a chance to play otherwise. Games like Sonic Arcade, Haunted Castle (Castlevania), Parodius DA, Megaman Power Battles, Dragonball, ect. I also have finally gotten to play again games I really liked but couldn't remember the name. I love the feeling of getting a MAME rom to some game that was at my arcade for two weeks fifteen years ago that I never knew the name of and finally playing it again. Of all the piracy nowadays MAME is the one easiest to justify.

[Yakumo]

About game prices rising due to piracy. In Japan games would cost up to 10'000 yen for an average release back in the day of the Super Famicom and before. Then Sega made a new price point of 5800yen. It stayed like this through the days of the late Mega CD, Saturn and Dreamcast (Until 2002) Other companies followed with N64 games being 5800 yen were Super Famicom games were 8000 to 10000 yen. Then Sony decided to bump up the price of games to 6800 with their PS2 releases because they were on DVD so they cost more to produce. Bull Sh!t I say. A DVD doesn't cost 1000 yen more to produce than a CD. Anyway, the point is that game prices have dropped here in the last 8 years while piracy has grown. Games on the Game Boy or GBA, Wonder Swan, Neo Geo Pocket and so on have always cost about 3500 to 4500 yen.

Another good point about piracy not affecting prices is that of DVDs. They are now dropping in price here. I bought Matrix Revolutions 2 DVD set last Thursday (April 1st) for 2500 yen. A year ago this would have cost me about 4000 yen.

Yakumo

[Calpis]

Yeah Japanese DVDs are way too expensive. My friend got reamed two years ago US$109 or something for a single imported DVD at San Francisco's Japan Center. 10 years ago Laserdiscs were like $100 a pop standard.

[Hawanja]

I have to agree with Mr. snow here on MAME. I live in a major city (Los Angeles) and I tell you I haven't seen a NEW arcade game in years. Used to be that your local stop n' go or 7-11 had arcade cabinets, no more of that crap (they got rid of them to get the kids out of the stores.) Shopping malls used to have arcades too, but all the ones I go to either don't have them at all or have games from the mid to late 90s. So how am I ever going to get to experience any new cool arcade releses, let alone the hundereds (if not thousands) of bad-ass Japanese arcade games that never made it to the USA? MAME is the only solution.

Things like emulators aren't piracy. What they are, are legitimate computer programs that let you run software otherwise incompatible with your current computer. Didn't emulation start off with machines like the Commodore 64 or Sinclair Spectrum? Console Eumulation is an offshoot of that. And since the majoity of emulators are for systems that are no longer in production nobody is stealing money from the parent company's sales when they use an emulator.

So technically I suppose if somebody made a PS2 emulator, that in itsef would not be "piracy" any more than owning a set of lockpicking tools would be "thievery." Possessing the tool itself does not automatically make you guilty of the crime. It's only when somebody uses the tools to make income from the work of somebody else that piracy has been commited. Somebody who burns a shitload of Roms onto a disk and sells it is guilty of piracy, but someone who does the same thing and gives it to a friend is not. It's still a complicated issue that the courts are going to take years to figure out.

Still, I do not download new commercially avialible games, simply becasue to do so would contribute to game companies losing money and no longer producing new games. They wouldn't stop completely, they would just cut development resources. Thus all new games would suck ass. I do not want that to happen.


One thing nobody's mentioned yet are the hundreds of companies around the world that make pirate game consoles, like Famiclones. Wasn't there a video on the old board of a steamroller running over some famiclones in Holland or something?

Well, honestly I collect pirate carts and systems, just becasue I think they're fun. I don't go out of my way to get them though. I do like the "Hong Kong Originals," (like famicom versions of Tekken or Street Fighter II, I've got one called "Super Fighter III" which actually plays rather well.) Like Jhonny said, in some places these are the only games people can afford, so if you're a game company and the pirates offer something you don't, then too bad for you. Supply and Demand, that's how capitolism works.

Companies like Nintendo are never going to get rid of Pirates (and will never beat them at thier own game either. I have no doubt that Pirate versions of the Ique will be availible soon.) What they should do is charge a liscencing fee for a company to manufacture a clone of their discontinued consoles, at least that way they could still make some money off it. Imagine how cool that would be, going to your local game store and seeing new SNES systems with new games all selling for real cheap.

As for music, the record companies are run by a bunch of criminals anyway. Feel free to download all you want. Fuck'em.

[Hawanja]

And please, can somebody turn off the bad language filter? "Binky Boo'em" Just sounds stupid. We're all adults here.

[kanemochi]

its interesting to see Yakumo typed "pairacy" three times, I thought it should have been "Piracy" :smt040

Right then, carry on mateys :smt033

[Yakumo]

its interesting to see Yakumo typed "pairacy" three times, I thought it should have been "Piracy

I tell you, the longer I'm in Japan the worse my English gets :smt022

Yakumo

[bobmcbob]

Well, to say piracy increases costs of games is utter rubbish. Publishers are BUSINESSES, and all businesses are out to make money. Inflation and increased lesiure cash amongst most people pushes prices up. Not to mention everyone and his dog haveing 3 or 4 credit cards and not worrying about debt. If people are willing to pay, then you cant blame companies from selling at high prices.

I think the prices they charge for most (not all) new games are crazy. Unless more titles like Beyond good and evil which were retailing at around 19.99 before xmas follow, then its only going to get worse.

At the end of the day, pirates and 'legit' businesses are both out to scam you out of your money.

As for Ebay auctions, then roll on piracy! Like f00k would i pay the daft prices for an orignal RS when as was mentioned earlier, the developers arnt getting the money just some asshole who is makeing more money than the pirates.

But hey, i think i have a problem with companies and businesses full stop. After all the dont give a fuck about the consumer so i think fuck them :P

Not saying that i agree with dodgy people selling dvdrs or cdrs at markets tho!

I do however like the shiny fake pirates you get from russia and hong kong etc that are actually pressed disks and often have cheesy artwork :)

I am a game collecter, i like to own obsucre hardware and the games i enjoy

Just my 2pence worth..

[Johnny]

This "problem" with arcades dissapearing is because lack of innovation and because home consoles are on the same quality. Just check some of the most used boards on arcade:

- Naomi, Naomi 2, Atomiswave -> similar to the Dreamcast, just more powerful

- Triforce -> Nintendo-Sega-Namco -> Based on Gamecube

- Chihiro -> X-Box based

- System 246 - PS2 based

Anyway, about the lack of innovation. 10 years ago, arcade simulators like Virtua Racing, After Burner and Super Monaco GP were amazing, and home ports would be great but not perfect.

Nowadays, F-Zero AX and F-Zero GX are the same game released at the same time on the arcade and Gamecube. To help people to be interested to play the arcade they made the games compatible using save cards, GC memory cards... This will work for some time, but not long.

Some innovation i liked was the one used on Police 24/7 / Police 911. Instead of making a shooting game like Time Crisis and Virtua Cop, they put sensors that make you avoid the bullets by ducking and hide behind walls.

Don't know the situation of arcades in usa. In japan it seems to be fine (i can tell this from yakumo videos.) In brazil, any shopping center or malls have at least a small arcade.

[Calpis]

Where I live in the USA there are plenty of small arcades, some have many patrons. Unfortunately they stock bizzare retro games that nobody plays and the "new" games they have are usually DDR and Time Crisis stuff. Every arcade around here also has a single Neo Geo which is always hogged by some really lame fanboy who will play the crappiest game of the four for at least a half hour. Other annoying things are the poseur kids who play stuff like Capcom vs SNK and pick Ryu and Ken. I haven't even bothered visiting an arcade for over a year (other than in Japan a few weeks ago.)

[madhatter256]

I would like to admit that I own about 15 PC games that I copied from my friends or downloaded at friend's lan parties (cuz that how we got to have fun was with the games they provided). On top of that I own about 4 downloaded DC games and 15 PSX games. As for emulators and roms..... 960 NES, 400SNES, 50Genesis/1SegaCD/five32x. When I see the game available at a store and if I have the money at that time then I'll buy it. However, I don't mention those in my game collection because I'm really not like that. When I say that I own about 100games, they are all legit copies.

I also have about 50 FREEWARE games that I download. A lot of them are great vertical shooters. I plan on making my own and it will feature something special :smt027

[Hawanja]

I actually have the complete NES ROM set. Over 8000 games, three versions of each game (American, Japanese, and European.) However, I still buy NES games (and Famicom games, when I can find them becasue I like playing it on the TV the way it was supposed to be.

[Johnny]

I actually have the complete NES ROM set. Over 8000 games, three versions of each game (American, Japanese, and European.) However, I still buy NES games (and Famicom games, when I can find them becasue I like playing it on the TV the way it was supposed to be.

8000 roms? Geez :smt024

PS: By the way, what is the best NES emulator?

[madhatter256]

I actually have the complete NES ROM set. Over 8000 games, three versions of each game (American, Japanese, and European.) However, I still buy NES games (and Famicom games, when I can find them becasue I like playing it on the TV the way it was supposed to be.

8000 roms? Geez :smt024

PS: By the way, what is the best NES emulator?

I dont use my PC emulator. I have been playing the PSX version of an NES emulator. It works great as far as emulation goes. Sometimes though, the PSX won't load the games because of the low quality laser not good enough to read off of CDRs.

[retro]

People have an odd view of piracy. If you are copying something for free, if it isn't available in your country, if it isn't sold any more, it is STILL piracy.

The backup law is really a US law that everyone worldwide seems to think is their right, which is not the case. Even in the US, its a dubious use of an old law that only REALLY applies to media that can be easily damaged, even when properly stored. This really applies only to tape media (for which this law was introduced), which is of course magnetic. CDs and ROM chips are NOT easily destroyed in correct storage, so actually aren't supposed to count.

Piracy affects us all. We are collectors. People who pirate games affect the value of our items. Much as its a great feeling to have bought PDS new at £39.99 and be able to sell it for £100, its a destroying feeling to pay £100 for it and then find it goes for £30 due to an influx of copies. The reason it is being sold so high? Well, you can all STOP blaming the "money grabbing" sellers. Actually, the REAL reason...

Panzer Dragoon Saga was made in fairly limited numbers, being made late in the Western Saturn's lifetime. Its a damn good game. As such, people hold onto it instead of trading it in for PS2 games, or selling it at a boot fair for £5. Therefore, finding a copy was quite hard a few years ago. It simply didn't turn up much in 2nd hand game stores. Therefore, when eBay becomes popular for collectors, and someone throws it up for £1 (or whatever), everyone takes an interest. £1 quickly becomes £20, then £50, then £100. Others see it, and say damn I'll sell mine! All those who bid still want it, so bid the same again. As a result, people raise the value of it, and more copies come on the market. This had the effect of stabilizing the price (which is good). So, its being sold for that because people will pay it - remember something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it! Sure, a shop may put it out for £100, that's their right. And someone may prefer to buy it there and then, rather than gamble on eBay.

Anyway, enough about that, back to piracy.....

So yeah, it hurts us.... those people are prepared to pay for it, but most just wanna play it. When they find a copy to download (or some bastard fl;ogging it for a tenner) they'll go for that. This means fewer people bid on it, and the price drops. It also hurts the developers. THEY have the rights to the game. They sell you the right to play it, NOT to copy it. Their rights DO NOT expire when a console dies. They have AT LEAST 25 years of copyright, actually probably more. They could, if they wish, re-release a game on another system, as part of a bundle perhaps (like Mario All Stars, or the Zelda Collector's Disc). They still have the right to sell that game, but if the original is going to be pirated, there isn't much point. Also, if people pirate their CURRENT software, they lose money. Therefore, they go bankrupt, or just refuse to make games for the affected area. Once again, WE LOSE OUT. Also, the constant high prices of software themselves are linked to piracy. Were it not for piracy, more people would buy the games, and the prices could be dropped.

Now, an area that particularly affects this board.... BETA/PROMO software. The rights to this belong to the developer. I don't care if the game was never released. I don't care if the developer no longer exists/merged with another... YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO "RELEASE" IT. NOONE should make money from that game except the developer. They have every right to can a project, you have NO RIGHT to play it. They can then bring it out on another platform if they so wish. Leaked betas make it less likely they will do so.

I know I'm just talking about software here, and this applies to music and films too, but this is the area that directly concerns us. Piracy ultimately hurts the gamer, and the collector. And in the end, all the pirates do is whinge about how a game wasn't released, or a company dissolves, or about the price of games. YOU are the ones causing that.

NOBODY has the right to download ROMs because they are "dead" systems, or "old" games. So what? If you like it, get the original! There's nothing like playing it AS IT WAS INTENDED. No matter what you do, an emulator will never be 100% perfect (if you wanna contest that, think about this... 50/60Hz TV vs 60-100HZ interleaved monitors with higher resolutions (you're talking a difference of 15kHZ to 80 kHZ, basically). Sure, its great when the maker allows it, but even then, some wanker decides to break the agreement and try to make money out of it.

Sure, there's the uber-bad pirate, who makes money selling them. Still, if you download or copy games, don't think you're not a pirate because YOU ARE.

p.s. Yakumo, like I said the "backup" rule is iffy, but I don't think you'll be arrested for showing them that you have a couple of games, all of which you have the sealed original.

[Alchy]

It hurts the developers.
Only if it's a current investment. How the hell does me playing SMB on rom rather than on my SNES hurt Nintendo?


Also, if people pirate their CURRENT software, they lose money.
Agreed, I think we're all against current-videogame piracy.


BETA/PROMO software. The rights to this belong to the developer. I don't care if the game was never released. I don't care if the developer no longer exists/merged with another... YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO "RELEASE" IT. NOONE should make money from that game except the developer.
Hell no I don't have the right to charge for it. That's why I was surprised when I saw that PA was going to be sold (I know the reasons behind it and I understand). As for me playing betas, lets say Sonic 2: tell me one company who are adversely economically affected, and I'll concede the point. Sega lose even less than if I was playing the "real thing".


in the end, all the pirates do is whinge about how a game wasn't released, or a company dissolves, or about the price of games. YOU are the ones causing that. NOBODY has the right to download ROMs because they are "dead" systems, or "old" games. Nothing I do hurts developers. Nothing I download is money out of their pocket. I'm an avid gamer and I buy recent games. But if I want to mess around with an obscure Japanese Nes game from 86 by a company who went bankrupt 15 years ago, I don't see why I shouldn't. Like I said, nobody gets hurt.


If you like it, get the original! There's nothing like playing it AS IT WAS INTENDED. I do, frequently. I have a large retro collection and I love the 2D generation. Why should that mean I feel guilty about having beta roms of ancient games?


Sure, there's the uber-bad pirate, who makes money selling them. Still, if you download or copy games, don't think you're not a pirate because YOU ARE.Fine, label me how you like. I know where the law stands and I'm on the wrong side of it. So are most of the people on this forum. I maintain the moral high ground, though, as I'm not taking money from anyone, and I support the hands that feed me my passion.

[Metal_4evr]

Alchy I agree with you completely. According to your example retro, if I downloaded Panzer Dragoon Saga I would be hurting the value. If it wasn't available for download or whatever I STILL would not pay 100 pounds for it. If it was reasonably priced I would buy it regardless of the ability to download it but it isn't.

[Hawanja]

You have a few good points Retro, but I think there's a few more:

As I said, I do not download ROMS of games commercially availible for current systems. Roms for consoles that have been discontinued I don't feel too bad about. Yes, the parent company still holds the rights to the games, thing is the vast majority of them are not commercially availible for any current system (i.e. no versions of 2600 pitfall or NES Blaster Master on the X-Box or PS2.) So how can I buy them ligitimately if they're not availible? Actually, how am I stealing from them if it's not for sale anywhere?

I would argue that a different version of the same game released on two different consoles is in fact two different games. There are differences between the two (example would be NES vs. SMS Double Dragon, or the three versions of Soul Caliber for the X-Box, PS2, or Gamecube.) So I want to play the NES version of Castlevania, not the latest PS2 version. The one I want is 15 years old and I can't find it anywhere, so how do I buy it new so the developer makes money?

The back-up law says you can make copies of stuff you own, but you are not allowed to sell those copies. It doesn't say you can't give them away for free, which is essentially what is happening with all the P2P lawsuits now.

I would be perfectly happy to pay a small fee to download a ROM legally (I'm sure eventually a few game companies will realise the money they could make selling ROMS for emulators.) One day it will happen, then everyone can download happily and legaly. But as it is now it's still a grey area, not really legal or illegal.

The vast majority of games for past systems are not being sold in a current form (ala Namco's greatest hits or something) and so money is not being taken from the developers. So the arguement "It's not hurting anyone" isn't exactly true, but I still don't feel bad about using ROMs and Emulators. Most people aren't interested in "classic" games for retired systems, most of them want the new stuff with all the crazy graphics and such.

As with Beta/Promo software, that's software that was never intended to be released in the first place. So you don't have the right to run off a thousand copies and sell it, but still who says you can't get a copy and play it yourself? It's software that's been abandoned.

The record industry used to say that blank tapes would destroy them (so did software companies about black floppy discs and CD burners.) But the impact of those things on the respective industries has been negligible. It just leads to copy protection, and while the super-pirates will always figure the copy protection out, the majority of users won't bother. I don't know how to "crack" software, and I don't want to know.

All this stuff is being fought over in the courts now, what with the MPAA suing 12 year old girls and such. I'm P2P networking, MP3's, etc. will all be illegal in the near future. This of course will not stop filesharing, just drive it underground (which is already happening to some extent.) One day there will be no ISPs, one day the Internet will be as intergrated into our lives as say the highway system, and then the'll be no one to snitch on you if you download a song or game. I give it less than ten years.

What do you guys think of grey market "clone" systems? I like to collect the stuff becasue sometimes it can be unique (like say the GameAxe portable Famicom with it's own built in screen.) However I admit most of the time it's total junk and you're better off going with the original.

[AntiPasta]

What do you guys think of grey market "clone" systems? I like to collect the stuff becasue sometimes it can be unique (like say the GameAxe portable Famicom with it's own built in screen.) However I admit most of the time it's total junk and you're better off going with the original.

They're illegal as hell, not only do they incorporate illicit copies of games (the actual hardware itself is not illegal I think as I assume they built the chips themselves), often the copyright notices are removed/altered and the system or it's brand labels are often made to look a lot like the original hardware.
For instance, my clone NES used to look a lot like a SNES but also did it have "Newtendo Super Famcom" written on it, and even a fake Nintendo seal of quality! Or worse, I have a Famiclone that looks *a lot* like a Megadrive 2 that blatantly has the Sega logo on it (and on the box too).

That doesnt mean, however, that they're useless - I find 'em pretty cool :)

[Johnny]

Take Brazil for example. The government is battling piracy with every ways possible, but they don't improve the security of our frontier with Paraguay (where more than 95% of all pirated produts enter in Brazil). They only hunt the "final" seller.

Another example of hypocrisy. They say "Dont buy piracy cd's, because it will hurt the artist income". Music Cd's cost almost the same as DVD's here. Way expensive, and the curious thing: The artist of the cd don't receive more than 2% of the sales of each cd. The rest goes to the distributor/recorder and some big part goes for taxes.

Another hypocrisy. Brazilian government condemns piracy, but Dynacom, a brazilian electronics company, sells the Dynavision (Nes Clone) + 94 games , which are not licensed for it to distribute, without any problems.


Anyway, my view on roms is that.
Arcade: I'll play arcade at home if it's not recent. For example if they add Virtua Racing on MAME next release, i'll download the rom and play. The game is 10 years old, and i spent tons of cash on it.
Consoles - only play emulators from 8bit / 16-bit generation

Sorry but i can't feel bad playing Super Mario 1 and Alex Kidd in Miracle World on the pc. Plus i don't think i'm taking other's people money when i play them.

[filler]

There was a poll recently on GameFAQs that asked, "What percentage of your game purchases are used games?". I thought about it a while, and I had to go with the "75-99%" range. I buy new games, but only 1-2 a year. Something that comes out that I really want I get. I do not pirate new games. I think it is lame. If a game is newer, just go buy it. I just really love older games.

As an artist I like to think of things in terms of art. I am a big fan of Japanese "doujinshi" comics, and have been to the Tokyo Comiket a couple of times. If I were a comic book artist, and I found that someone was not only using my copyrighted characters, but using them in sexually explicit ways (note this is just an example), bastardising my scenes, and making MONEY off of it! Well, I suppose I would have every right to not only be upset, but to sue them for copyright infringement (George Lucas v.s. Starballs anyone?).

But the truth is, comic market is HUGE. I seriously cannot describe how huge it is if you have not seen it. It's like 10,000 tables. It's oerwhelming. I'm always amazed when I am there, it is a really cool indescribable thing. The only way I can really think of to justify it's exsistance is that it is the most amazing display of fandom I have ever seen. And I think that for the artists whose works are being emulated, they see it as just that, and expression of how much the fans LOVE their comics.

I think that that is the real difference, and maybe it is cultural where the Japanese are supposed to think of others before themselves, is I think that in the west we are so USED to the idea of being selfish, that we expect companies to grab and horde and make every last penny they can off of anything they can claim to own. This is at the expense of artists, consumers. and most importantly, fans. The thing I find sad about the whole file-sharing thing, is that it is simply fans, expressing thier love for music, and what is happening? They are being sued. Not to say that the selfishness cannot spread to individuals too, like those who try to make money off of burned games on ebay, but I think the majority of the "grey area" of copyright and piracy is just fans enjoying what they are able to and it's not hurting anyone.

Companies are losing sales? Maybe there has just been a shift in what consumers want. Take anime DVDs for instance. I am seeing a lot more box sets now, or 1st volume DVDs sold with a box. The boxes are getting nicer to, and things are coming with more extras. What does this mean? Well, I think it means that people are able to download or otherwise get a lot of anime to watch. Companies are responding by making much nicer, more value added official releaes, with extras and liner notes etc. This is only benefiitting the consumer. The music industry however, is resisting any sort of change, and it's coming down straight on the fans. The problem is that the music industry is no longer giving people what they want. It's just sad that they are unwilling to think of thier consumers and can only think of themselves.

So back to games, well, I am a fan of games. I translate games that have never been released in English, so people can play them. Why? Because, I want to play them and no one has fullfilled that need for me, I am forced to do it myself. Do I have a right to do it, well, I want to do it, I can do it, and its not hurting anyone. Whether I have a right to do it or not, I stand behind it. I think that companies have a responsibility to give people what they want. It's when the companies want to decide what thier consumers want, and don't think of thier fans, but only themselves, that fans are penalized.

The video game industry is growing and growing, and I feel happy that unlike music right now, it is an industry that is still somewhat consumer focused. They are making enough games that I want that I buy a few new games a year, heck I buy a couple CDs a year too. I think that's great. But there is a lot of other stuff that I am also happy that I can do, play emulated games, translate games, download games. That's not me being a pirate, it's a fact of the times. Things frequently change more quickly than we have the time to think about, or even to realize what has changed. But maybe Comiket can be an example that fandom and big business can get along when business takes into consideration the people that make it's products and the people who buy them, more than just making money.

[Hawanja]

Inspired by this thread, I added an article about P2P networks in my Rants section:

http://hawanja.com/rants13.htm

I might have got some of the facts wrong, feel free to taunt me. I am a grown man now. I can take it.

[filler]

That rant kicked ass!

[Lostuse]

piracy fucking ownz...

[Anonymous]

video game collecting is the current fad. It may or may not pass. I have seen both comics and sports cards go from $1000's to $1. Video game collecting may have the same future. Coimcs and sports cards had bootlegs too and it did not effect the value of the real gems. Ebay is not a real way to tell what something is worth. I have a few friends in the import buisness and many games are very common outside the US. Secondly some bootlegs are so good I'd bet only a few members on this board could spot them. I'll bet half of you bought a good bootleg that you still think is real. So does ignorance make the item more real than someone who downloaded it. It just shows the person who bought the good fake ignorant. Don't take too much pride in collecting things that is someone else's buisness that earns them a living. They will and do fool people because they want to make $$$$$$$$. If you think collecting something makes you special, just forget it when you are 40 years old you might not care anymore. Look at books for instance. Do any modern publishers have Shakespears permisson to print his play. No, they do not, so is it piracy. If thue could not publish and distribute his work no one would see it today. Games are the same way, books and plays were the entertianment activities of the past. Piracy exists and people wil continue to support it because rela capitalism has no bounds. For those of you who are collectors with pride, please continue lining the pockets of profiteers.

[Blur2040]

Video game collecting may be a short lived fad, who knows, but I don't think anyone here collects video games to "feel special." Most people who collect do it because they like games, and have an interest in them...enough so that they seek rare games out.

Ebay would seem like a good way to determine somethings value. An object's monetary value is (surprise!) determined by how much somebody is willing to pay for it. So, if somebody is willing to pay $150 for Panzer Dragoon Saga...guess what, PDS is worth $150.

Piracy....for what systems are you talking here? We're all well aware that Famicom/NES games can be pirated easily, as well as Genesis games. But most of these are poorly made, and can be spotted a mile away...and well, I can't think of any cases of NES or Genesis games that have been been copied a ton due to their insane value...which leaves us with Neo Geo...which have been pirated an sold as originals...but most people who are into Neo Geo know the risks and many of them can spot a fake pretty well. Ah, as for CDs...I can tell a burnt CD from a Pressed CD...can't you...and I know there are some really hi tech piraters...but I doubt many have CD presses...and most systems nowadays have copyright protection on the discs...something which in most cases can't be easily duplicated...cough...dreamcast...

Ah, and for your last part...the part that tickled me the most the reason we can read Shakespeare's work today is not because of rampant piracy...I believe the term I'm looking for is "Public Domain" (correct me if I am wrong...)

Read THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain)

Though its kind of complicated, what it says is that works of a certain age...and if their authors have been dead for a long amount of time, they become free for all to use...this is why my copy of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass only cost me $3.95.

Oh...I did forget about GBA games...I have heard of some piracy issues with them...and that they can be hard to spot. Solution: Don't buy games that come from Hong Kong and are priced unusually cheap.

Oh...and did you come here with the intention of trolling...or did it just happen?

[Anonymous]

Everbody is forgetting that proffessionals read forums and boards. They do this to get a pulse on what makes money. Theier are both pirates and devepolers looking over your posts daily. They don't care about how you feel, its about how many units they move.

I was taking about pressed cds made at ligitimate plants beining "rented" by pirates. I hate to burst some bubbles, but it happens and googd bootlegs are passed off as originals daily. You don't have to take my word for it its happing. If you don't know about it "oh well". Laws ar changing and I'll bet many games never become public domian. Corporations own the whole pie and pirates skim a little. BIG DEAL. Its simple supply and demand. If the products were not in demand no one would by pirate copies. Look at Gamecube. I have seen very few pirate games for this system and most examples are very poor. They did thier piracy homework and for the most part lower the prices of games to a reasonable level with the passage of time.

When I was younger games actually did go on sale, clearance, discount ETc. This rarely happens today, if not for ebay and the internet reatil prices would be king. In stores I hear parents saying to thier kids "you can get it when it goes on sale" Poor kid in 2004 its not going to happen.

I don't live in the web What the F@#k is "trolling"

[Greatsaintlouis]

I KOLLEKT GAMEZ TO FEEL SPESHUL!!1 :smt040 :smt040 :smt061

Sorry, just had to get that out. The reason most of us collect games is not because it gives us that warm fuzzy feeling of some unknown accomplisment deep down inside, but mostly because we like playing them. There are some of us here who collect games and systems merely for the sake of collecting them, but that's no different than someone who collects stamps or coins per se. I really think you're wrong on the fad idea, as just like with coins, stamps, comics, action figures, and everything else you can collect, as long as there are games still being released, we will collect them.

And I'm not sure where you've been and seen pirate games, but I have never in my life even heard of a pirated Dreamcast GD-ROM or a Gamecube Disc. Yes, in parts of mainland Asia (maybe Japan too?) PS2 and PSX piracy is rampant, but if the discs my Thai roommate brings back from home are any example, it's not hard to spot a fake.

Blur mentioned this and I thought I'd reiterate - do NOT buy VERY cheaply priced GBA games shipping from Hong Kong, as they are most certianly pirate carts. I got a Japanese Mario 3 and a Zelda: Four Swords cart this summer that turned out to be fakes. On the Zelda, some of the label printing and box colors were a little off, which made it easy to identify as pirate, but in the case of Mario 3, I actually had to open the cart to verify there was no Nintendo logo on the PCB before I could tell for certain it was pirate. BEWARE!! :smt027

[A. Snow]

I see games go on sale all the time. Way more than when Nintendo dominated in the eighties. Many games also drop in price sooner not to mention all the greatest hits games. Where do you live?

[Anonymous]

In response to "see games go on sale all the time. Way more than when Nintendo dominated in the eighties. Many games also drop in price sooner not to mention all the greatest hits games. Where do you live?" The only reason greatest hits games go on sale is to curb buying used. Plain and simple, there are many games that qualify for greatest hits but never get the distinction and that is because they can be sold at full price for almost the entire existance of the system.

As for pirate games I am speicifically talking about PSone and PS2. There are fakes out there that are near perfect. They get sold online and small stores off the radar (in the U.S. Tokyo, Hong Kong)

My gamecube story was an example of a successful anti piracy policy

[Hawanja]

Who the hell is this guy?

"If you think collecting something makes you special, just forget it when you are 40 years old you might not care anymore."

Hey, I don't collect games becasue they make me "special." I don't need a room full of Nintendo carts to booster my self esteem. I like to collect them becasue I like to play the games. You got a problem with that?

As for the bootlegs being sold as originals, I have to agree with you there. If you go to less reputable outets that import a lot of their merchandise there is a slight chance that what you are buying is not the real thing *cough* WALMART *cough.* This also goes for videos, cheap electronics, clothing (especially clothing,) etc. However I would say that the stuff in major retail chains is probably 99.9% legit, at least in most western industrialized nations.

So, go to a store with a good reputation, one that you trust that doesn't exploit it's workers or sells sweatshop items. Problem solved.

Where I live games go on sale all the time. They debut at $50 or $60 and steadily go down as time goes on, eventually bottoming out between $12.99- $20. This I think is not too much to ask for a new game. I personally haven't bought a "new" game in quite some time (I'm not one of those guys who needs to have the original shrinkwrap.) If you're tired of paying fifty bones for new games then try shopping around a little.


"For those of you who are collectors with pride, please continue lining the pockets of profiteers."

What is that supposed to mean, exactly? If you mean "profiteer" when you say the people who worked hard to put out a decent product then yes, I am happy to give them my money. So what if one time in a hundred I end up buying a cheap copy, the other 99 times I bought the real thing and the money went to who it was supposed to.

And yes, one day most of the games we collect will become part of the public domain. The rules have been changed recently, extended from 50 years to who knows how long, but one day after we're all dead they will be "free." I might also add that video games/software are different than books as in there is no single "author" who owns the rights, the rights are usually reserved for the parent company to do with as they please. As it is I think it's when the said company goes out of business and if it hasn't sold the rights to another company then the game goes into public domain. Look at all the Freeware games you can get off the internet that are former C64 and Apple II games. One day that'll happen to PS2 and Gamecube games too. It might just take 150 years.

Anyway, please don't come to this board and assume we're all stupid kids. We're adults with jobs and responsibilities who play video games. Some guys fish, some play basketball, I play video games. And I cincerly hope that more "professionals" like you come and read these boards so I can continue to tell them to take thier heads out of thier asses.

[AntiPasta]

Hawanja, you took the words straight out of my mouth :smt023

[Anonymous]

THIS HOBBY IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER. When I was into sports cards and comics there were many people who got old and got out. If you knew what you were doing in the late 90's the mjority of collectors were getting out and selling for cheap. Granted most of the stuff never regined its highrst value, but they prices didn't stay rock bottom and today those cheap bulk collections are worth more than they were bought for. Video games are the same way. Eventually you just won't care and will need the cash.

Thanks for recognizing the existance of quality bootlegs.

The peolpe who make the games get hardly anything. They don't work on commision. Some very good freelance designers and programers get good $$$$, But the developers are the lowest people on the totem people who make the real money. Sorry but the guys that work the hardest get the least. The profiteers I am speaking of own thier labor and thier work. By purchasing games you are making a few higher ups look good for cracking the wip on subordinates within the company.

There are some small companies that share the wealth with empolyees, but you better have a list of companies everytime you shop and not buy from anybody else. Because few people get paid credit for thier work.

[Greatsaintlouis]

Man, you're making the gaming industry sound like the music industry now.

[Hawanja]

"THIS HOBBY IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER"

No duh. I never said it wasn't. What else could it be? A religion? A way of life? I am perfectly clear that what I do essentially fullfills the same need that a dancing monkey with a tin cup does, that is entertain me. I know that when I buy a new system and stay up three days in a row to beat a game I am essentially masturbating with a $200 machine. And you know what? I like it.

Some fools collect stamps, comics, whatever. I collect videogames. Something wrong with that?

For your information I do not collect becasue it's an "investment opportunity." I could honestly care less if my collection is worth something. It's nice to know that I could sell it for $5000 + if I choose to, perhaps when I'm a bitter old man like you I will.

As for "The peolpe who make the games get hardly anything," I would assume that they get whatever salary thier company pays them. If they don't like how much they make they are perfectly able to find a better job. That's how it works in a free market system. Those companies that pay thier people dogshit will get dogshit work in exchange, and will thus make dogshit games and recieve dogshit profit. They will go out of business. Those that pay thir people well will generally recieve better work, make better games, and get more profit. Thus the crappy companies are naturally eliminated. No one is chaining programmers to the desk and whipping them into making games for the white plantation owner.

"Because few people get paid credit for thier work."

Yeah, that's a given. When you work for a gigantic software conglomerate you do not own what you produce, nor do you get much credit. The trade off is a steady paycheck. Small time people make more money but have more risk involved. It's the same with any industry. I don't see why this is such a suprise to you.

You sound like an angry programmer that got shafted out of the rights to Pac Man or something.