xbox 360 design question

[forever gaming]

what's stopping Microsoft from producing a revised version of the 360 to prevent rrod. Perhaps over hauling the design from scratch. if i may use in example, like the ps2 fat to slim, ps1 original to psone or psp to psp slim etc. im just a bit curious to ask. :icon_bigg

[ASSEMbler]

It's the design of the board, regulations, + gpu / cpu heat.

1. They can't use lead based solder in children's toys.
2. The board is too thin and warps under heat from the gpu
and cpu. The solder cracks and causes failure.
3. They didn't change the design as they decided it was better to
sell fast than redesign before release.

The new chips are cooler running, but not cool enough.
The heat is still too high.

Then new boards coming soon will be 100% redesigned and
have lower thermal output.

All older systems WILL fail some point in the future (if stock cooled)
as the cracks in the solder are assured to develop. It is a fatal design
flaw.

What I have in my system is an independent fan. It turns on before
the 360 is on, and critically remains on AFTER the system is off for
appx ten minutes to cool the board.

[Martin]

My brother had a gpu failure on his, without any rings. A lot of people are linking this to the NXE update, which causes yet more heat.

[Stuart.C]

NXE causes more heat! Cheers Microsoft :DOH:

[Taucias]

Cost. It is cheaper for them to do small redesigns and reduce component die size (and thus heat) and replace faulty units than to have to pay engineers to redesign it. Microsoft has to outsource their entire product process from beginning to end, and a radical redesign would be very cost prohibitive.

Sony does all this inhouse so the cost of redesign is lower than the savings they make from hardware revisions. That's why the PS3 has already seen so many changes in the motherboard etc. (beyond removing the PS2 chipset).

[PhreQuencYViii]

NXE causes more heat! Cheers Microsoft :DOH:

??

[jccochez]

Then new boards coming soon will be 100% redesigned and
have lower thermal output.


If you're talking about jasper boards, thing again, they have the same design, even if they produce less heat.

If you're talking about something else, what is it?

Ps: I have a Day-one 360 that works fine. Luck helps :lol:

[Taucias]

??

It requires the CPU and GPU to work harder, making more heat.

[Dark Seraph91]

Yea I really feel bad for people that say they are on there like 6th 360 and above, thats just sad. I HAD a launch day 360 for the longest time(up until a year ago) and I sold it on ebay as a modded 360. I needed a new one with hdmi. but even to the last day I played it it worked fine, it was pretty cool too.

[madhatter256]

I can't seem to find any accesory that helps cool the XBOX360 that doesn't require opening it up.

My brothers bought a model that is just below Jasper (where the CPU is 65nm, but not the GPU if I remember correctly).

I see some at gamestop, but they just go over where the rear fans are located and I think that really won't help at all...

[ASSEMbler]

If you're talking about jasper boards, thing again, they have the same design, even if they produce less heat.

If you're talking about something else, what is it?

Ps: I have a Day-one 360 that works fine. Luck helps :lol:
Not Jasper, this is the $149.99 hdmi that is in the works

[PhreQuencYViii]

It requires the CPU and GPU to work harder, making more heat.

Uh, by an actually noticeable amount?

[retro]

On the topic of lead-based solder, it is banned now, at least in Europe. It isn't to do with children so much as the fact that the lead fumes are dangerous to those assembling the PCBs. Therefore, they now have to use lead-free solder.

Incidentally, whilst lead-free solder isn't regarded as highly by electronics buffs, it has a higher melting point. Some service manuals actually state that you shouldn't use solder containing lead when repairing the equipment (I've seen it in modern television service manuals) due to the lower melting point. How hot do they expect the appliance to get?!? 60/40 lead solder melts at around 180-190 degrees Celcius. That's hot enough to boil water or cook food! Lead-free solder usually has a melting point between 200-230 degrees Celcius, although the most common is around 215-220 degrees Celcuis.

Whilst the US hasn't banned the use of lead in solder, I think they're starting to encourage the move from it, particularly in California. Apparently there's some kind of tax rebate if you stop using lead in your electronics? lol.

So when people claim that 360s get SO hot that it melts the solder and messes up the joint, I would ask - HOW?!?! A processor running at 180 degrees Celcius or higher? Really?

[Stuart.C]

60/40 lead solder melts at around 180-190 degrees Celcius. That's hot enough to boil water or cook food! Lead-free solder usually has a melting point between 200-230 degrees Celcius, although the most common is around 215-220 degrees Celcuis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLabckoPC0g

Maybe they should forget the next Xbox and try to get a slice of george foremans pie.

[Gaming]

The Xbox 360 power supply should be changed, its such a big brick.

[retro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLabckoPC0g

Maybe they should forget the next Xbox and try to get a slice of george foremans pie.

You can cook an egg at 70 degrees Celcius. I've seen PCs run at that temperature - OK, it's preferable to have them cooler, but they do still run. Incidentally, was he using powdered egg there? I wonder if that would cook at lower temperatures....

Shame the video is such low quality. I couldn't see it boiling the water. I didn't see any steam. It appeared to evaporate. You could get that effect with isopropyl alcohol if you wanted to. As for the Sambuca, I couldn't see a flame there, either. Alcohol boils at a lower temperature than water, around 85 degrees Celcius IIRC.

If he didn't use any trickery (including using something that wasn't water or heating the heatsink with that hot air gun), then that suggests the 360 is reaching a temperature of 100 degrees Celcius. Sure, that's too hot, but still way off the temperature of 180-220 degrees Celcius required to melt the solder.

[Taucias]

Uh, by an actually noticeable amount?

Apparently it does not take much to cause this problem, but yes. A lot more then the old blade system they used.


So when people claim that 360s get SO hot that it melts the solder and messes up the joint, I would ask - HOW?!?! A processor running at 180 degrees Celcius or higher? Really?

That's simplifying the issue somewhat. The problem is the board warps due to the X clamps when the machine heats up, and that puts a strain on the solder joints.

[retro]

That makes more sense! In turn, it's most people simplifying the problem to "heats up and melts the joints" which is obviously not true! ;-)

[yosaito]

1. They can't use lead based solder in children's toys.


I always wondered whether the issue of using non leaded solder was a contributing factor, doesn't the ROHS/wee directive state all devices must use this solder and not just childrens toys?

[virtual alan]

You can cook an egg at 70 degrees Celcius. I've seen PCs run at that temperature - OK, it's preferable to have them cooler, but they do still run. Incidentally, was he using powdered egg there? I wonder if that would cook at lower temperatures....

Shame the video is such low quality. I couldn't see it boiling the water. I didn't see any steam. It appeared to evaporate. You could get that effect with isopropyl alcohol if you wanted to. As for the Sambuca, I couldn't see a flame there, either. Alcohol boils at a lower temperature than water, around 85 degrees Celcius IIRC.

If he didn't use any trickery (including using something that wasn't water or heating the heatsink with that hot air gun), then that suggests the 360 is reaching a temperature of 100 degrees Celcius. Sure, that's too hot, but still way off the temperature of 180-220 degrees Celcius required to melt the solder.




There were the Royal Institute Christmas Lectures on TV a while, which even though aimed at kids were very interesting.

He had PC running and cooked an egg on the processor as well!!!


Also moving off track a little, the youtube below had the audience controlling a car game by movement. This was also one of the lectures noted above

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXLR2QEvmYA

[KIWIDOGGIE]

I do not use my xbox very much, Actualy not at all during the week. Its a Zepher Model and still running strong. Having it not around anything and on a flat table is proablly helping aswell.

[tmbinc]

The absolute temperature is not the problem. As other people said before, there is a defined temperature at which the components are supposed to work, and the xbox360 board does not exceed those. There are thermal diodes integrated into the CPU and GPU, and the board will shut down way before they are damaged. Try running a board with disconnected fan - it will get damn hot, but it will survive. Also this temperature is way before solder will "meld".

In my eyes, the problem is the steep temperature curve the box is running through when it it powers on. The CPU and GPU will heat up from ambient temperature to approx. 70 degree Celsius in ~5-10 second. That's a lot - and it applies huge stress to the chip packages due to any thermal resistance between the chip and the board - the board will heat up slower, so it will extend slower. Solder will crack, which results in an increased impedance of a ball, leading to a signal integrity issue where memory stops working properly. This is when we see a 010x-RROD. So if the solder would actually "meld", there would probably be even less a problem, because those cracks would "heal". However the temperature where solder melts exceeds the safe operating temperature range of the silicon by far. That's why the "towel trick" is a very bad idea. The "X-Clamp fix" will just apply more force to the GPU, eventually pushing the balls back together. It does help, but won't fix the root cause.

This is NOT just a case of inadequate cooling - the console maintains its set temperature target pretty well. It's also something which happens after a long time, possibly after a lot of power-cycles - most RROD consoles fail after severals YEARS. My guess is that microsoft failed to do the right validation - which is always easy to say in the end.

I don't think Microsoft was aware of the extends of this problem before launch. A certain failure rate, which can be as large as a few percent, is pretty normal in this cost-constrained market. Surely the problems Microsoft is facing exceed these rates by far.

[madhatter256]

I always wondered whether the issue of using non leaded solder was a contributing factor, doesn't the ROHS/wee directive state all devices must use this solder and not just childrens toys?


Everything, except hospital devices. Well almost everything. A lot of devices out there still use lead based solder.