Pal Saturn 60hz mod made simple

[Panzer Mike]

After lurking around here for too long I thought I'd make a contribution myself and post my recent Saturn 60hz mod tutorial "made simple". It involves soldering 2 wires to 2 solder pads onto a switch. The solder pads can be found by simply removing the battery compartment door.

Basically I used the instructions posted on French fansite Segakore (http://www.segakore.fr/articles/switch_sat_p2.html) to install a 50/60 hz switch on my European (pal) model 2 (round buttoned) Saturn. I know there's lots of tutorials out there explaining how to install a 60hz switch on your Saturn, but the method explained on Segakore is much more simple and nearly risk free (I guess you could still burn your fingers soldering :icon_bigg).

You can perform this mod on the more recent version of a model 1 pal Saturn, depending on the motherboard, but this specific mod is intended for model 2.

To make it troublefree I made a photo tutorial with full instructions. You can find it on the "mod/repair" page (http://www.retrocorner.net/index.php?Mods_%2F_repairs:Saturn_model_2_50%2F60h z_switch_-_page_1) of my website. Lemme know what you think.

Mod url: http://www.retrocorner.net/index.php?Mods_%2F_repairs:Saturn_model_2_50%2F60h z_switch_-_page_1

[Ruiner]

Is there a point to a 50/60 switch on US model 2?

[Panzer Mike]

Nope, not really. You're the lucky ones, US ntsc machines run at 60hz unlike speed crippled European pal ones.

A region mod would be useful though if you want to access the (vast) library of Japanese Saturn games. No easy way of region modding a Saturn though, not yet anyway.

[TmEE]

50Hz has more benefits from the programmers point of view than you can imagine... more time between frames, much less slowdown because of that, and potentially higher polycount in 3D games.
Thanks for the link to the mod :)

I tried this on my Model1 Saturn, and I got nothing more than off sync screen and a crash on it when connecting the 2 middle pins of the SW4... I did it at the BIOS screen, but this should not matter (?)

[hl718]

Nope, not really. You're the lucky ones, US ntsc machines run at 60hz unlike speed crippled European pal ones.

A region mod would be useful though if you want to access the (vast) library of Japanese Saturn games. No easy way of region modding a Saturn though, not yet anyway.

What do you mean no easy way of region modding a Saturn? If you're talking 60Hz NTSC, a simple throw switch to the jumpers and you're good to go. One system that will play all JPN and U/C releases. It's probably one of the simplest mods out there.

-hl718

[KIWIDOGGIE]

So if Im correct this is like the Xbox 1, Pal50 (slower screen, lower bounces in Halo 2) or Pal60 (NTSC Standard)

[Panzer Mike]

I tried this on my Model1 Saturn, and I got nothing more than off sync screen and a crash on it when connecting the 2 middle pins of the SW4... I did it at the BIOS screen, but this should not matter (?)

As I've stated clearly, this mod is intended for a Pal model 2 Saturn. This mod can be applied to model 1 Saturns but only the last generation produced with the more recent motherboards. I've had the same result as you when I tried it on one of my early model 1 Saturns (a '95 launch model to be exact). You'll have to use another 50/60hz mod on your Saturn (not too complicated either really).


What do you mean no easy way of region modding a Saturn? If you're talking 60Hz NTSC, a simple throw switch to the jumpers and you're good to go. One system that will play all JPN and U/C releases. It's probably one of the simplest mods out there.

-hl718
Well, we're not talking about modding NTSC Saturns here are we :katamari:? This mod concerns Pal model 2 Saturns. And no, there isn't a region mod for pal Saturns which is as easy to do as this simplified 50/60hz mod, not to my knowledge anyway.


So if Im correct this is like the Xbox 1, Pal50 (slower screen, lower bounces in Halo 2) or Pal60 (NTSC Standard)
Not sure if that's a valid comparison but what this mod does is switch to a pal 60hz signal, removing black borders and speeding things up so your pal Saturn games aren't "crippleware" anymore ;-)

[karsten]

my suggestion is to buy a darn cheap pal saturn and an NTSC saturn and then switching the power supply... it takes 5 mins, give you the advantage of having the 60hz videos and allows you to play the USA games (far more and better than the euro ones).

also no soldering is required... i used this method and i'm really pleased with the results :)

[Panzer Mike]

Sure, if you find that a practical approach. But why first buy and then gut 2 Saturns if you can achieve the same result ("60hz video" included) with 2 euro worth of parts and a 20 minute solder job?

And why go to the trouble of buying US Saturn games? They're more expensive to import (for a European ofcourse), 95% of them were released in Europe and the artwork is absolutely ghastly.

You're better off region modding you Saturn or using an import cartridge and collecting Jap games if you ask me. But that's a Saturn purist point of view though ;-)

[karsten]

just showing the chance since many people here have multiple copies of the same console, and not everybody can solder...

i have a JAP saturn with euro power supply and an import cart plugged in... :)

i got a jap saturn for 25euros boxed in japan and a PAL one for 18 with 4-5 games included... if i could solder i would have modded it with chip and 50/60hz switch...

[Panzer Mike]

You're right, switching the power board of an ntsc Saturn with a pal one is the easier method if you don't like to solder. Admittedly, the sw4 solder pads can be tricky if you're not comfortable soldering wires to (relatively) small pads, the coating on the Saturn's pcb can be bothersome as well.

Glad to see that switching powerboards is worry-free, I'll try that out on one of my Jap Saturns in the near-future and do a little tutorial about that as well, thanks for the info :icon_bigg

[karsten]

it works flawlessly and was easy even for me that i'm not good and doing such things... i didn't lose a screw even :D

[TmEE]

Making this work on a Model1 (at least one I have) is only the matter of doing a small cut and adding a small wire in one location. I hate Saturn's PCB, its as poor as 32X's... one knock with soldering iron and you get traces broken :/

[Panzer Mike]

Making this work on a Model1 (at least one I have) is only the matter of doing a small cut and adding a small wire in one location. I hate Saturn's PCB, its as poor as 32X's... one knock with soldering iron and you get traces broken :/
If you're lucky, it all depends on the motherboard of your MK1 Saturn, there's about 3 different variations of the first generation motherboard of an MK1 Saturn (to my knowledge). I've used the method that you mention on an MK1 Saturn I bought on launch day, it's certainly very easy.

The second generation of MK1 motherboard (type SD, the same as in the MK2 Saturns) has the SW4 jumper pairs as mentioned in my little tutorial.

The Saturn's PCB isn't that sensitive really, considering the (sometimes annoying!) PCB coating on the MK2 Saturns anyway.

[snk2]

Hello everybody.
Sorry for bumping this thread.I have recently got a Model1 PAL Saturn, and i wanted to do the 60hz mod, but all the tutorials out there are for later Model1 Saturns, or for Model2 ones.Mine is an earlier Model1 version, i don't know if it's a launch model...on the motherboard it says:837-11892-01:PAL.

Now after a lot of googling, i came across this thread, and read that 2 users made this mod on an earlier Model1 Saturn, namely TmEE and Panzer Mike.So i would be very grateful if one of you could give me a few pointers on how to do this switch mod on my Saturn, not necessarily step-by-step (although that would be nice:), i'm kind of a noob when it comes to these things), mosty the part about doing the small cut and adding a small wire in one location (which location is it?), and also do i have to solder a wire to the 79th leg of that chip?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

[retro]

my suggestion is to buy a darn cheap pal saturn and an NTSC saturn and then switching the power supply... it takes 5 mins, give you the advantage of having the 60hz videos and allows you to play the USA games (far more and better than the euro ones).

also no soldering is required... i used this method and i'm really pleased with the results :)

Err... what?? 240 games in Europe and 245 games in the US. That's 5 more games!! BOTH regions have games that the other doesn't. Half the US ones are crappy sports games. Oh, and there are 3 different PSUs for the Saturn, each incompatible with the other. Your "easy" modification relies on LUCK! You have to buy a US console, have it shipped over if it comes from the US, buy a European console and HOPE that they use the same PSU! I don't call that an easy mod!

A US console outputs in crappy NTSC. PAL is better. Why would you CHOOSE to use NTSC over PAL??

As for this mod - thanks for the info, although this and several techniques have been around for a very long time now, e.g.:

http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/sega/saturn5060.htm

Incidentally, I've said it before and I'll say it again... I wish people would stop referring to "model 1" and "model 2", especially with regard to technical information! The Saturn has models which start with VA. VA0-VA3 had oval buttons, so your suggestion that there were three versions of the "model 1" is incorrect. The round button consoles number up to at least VA9 (10 versions). There are significant differences between certain models, so I don't like using "model 1" and "model 2". Some are compatible, some aren't.

[retro]

Err... what?? 240 games in Europe and 245 games in the US. That's 5 more games!! BOTH regions have games that the other doesn't. Half the US ones are crappy sports games. Oh, and there are 3 different PSUs for the Saturn, each incompatible with the other. Your "easy" modification relies on LUCK! You have to buy a US console, have it shipped over if it comes from the US, buy a European console and HOPE that they use the same PSU! I don't call that an easy mod!

A US console outputs in crappy NTSC. PAL is better. Why would you CHOOSE to use NTSC over PAL??

As for this mod - thanks for the info, although this and several techniques have been around for a very long time now, e.g.:

http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/sega/saturn5060.htm

Incidentally, I've said it before and I'll say it again... I wish people would stop referring to "model 1" and "model 2", especially with regard to technical information! The Saturn has models which start with VA. VA0-VA3 had oval buttons, so your suggestion that there were three versions of the "model 1" is incorrect. The round button consoles number up to at least VA9 (10 versions). There are significant differences between certain models, so I don't like using "model 1" and "model 2". Some are compatible, some aren't.


I have recently got a Model1 PAL Saturn, and i wanted to do the 60hz mod

There are many well-documented versions of the mod available on the net - see the above link, for example. They should tell you where to cut. Which VA model is your Saturn? It should be printed on the board.

[snk2]

There are many well-documented versions of the mod available on the net - see the above link, for example. They should tell you where to cut. Which VA model is your Saturn? It should be printed on the board.

Like i said in my post, this is what's printed on my board:837-11892-01:PAL, and also this:171-7069B MAIN.There is nothing printed with VA.
Yes i know about mmonkey's tutorial, as i have seached a lot on google, but i haven't found a tutorial specifically for my version, or one that would mention a method that works for other versions AND my version.

[retro]

The links will still be there and probably marked the same, just look around.

e.g. : http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/sega/saturnregion3.htm (yeah that's for region switching, but you get the point).

What about this?

http://guidesat.free.fr/tutoriaux/switch/switch01.html

[karsten]

Err... what?? 240 games in Europe and 245 games in the US. That's 5 more games!! BOTH regions have games that the other doesn't. Half the US ones are crappy sports games. Oh, and there are 3 different PSUs for the Saturn, each incompatible with the other. Your "easy" modification relies on LUCK! You have to buy a US console, have it shipped over if it comes from the US, buy a European console and HOPE that they use the same PSU! I don't call that an easy mod!

A US console outputs in crappy NTSC. PAL is better. Why would you CHOOSE to use NTSC over PAL??



PAL = 50hz = black borders and slower gameplay.
NTSC = 60hz = perfect gameplay, fullspeed

i never talked about the number of games. also all the saturn i saw had switchable power supplyes...

[ConsoleFun]

Hello everybody.
Sorry for bumping this thread.I have recently got a Model1 PAL Saturn, and i wanted to do the 60hz mod, but all the tutorials out there are for later Model1 Saturns, or for Model2 ones.Mine is an earlier Model1 version, i don't know if it's a launch model...on the motherboard it says:837-11892-01:PAL.

Now after a lot of googling, i came across this thread, and read that 2 users made this mod on an earlier Model1 Saturn, namely TmEE and Panzer Mike.So i would be very grateful if one of you could give me a few pointers on how to do this switch mod on my Saturn, not necessarily step-by-step (although that would be nice:), i'm kind of a noob when it comes to these things), mosty the part about doing the small cut and adding a small wire in one location (which location is it?), and also do i have to solder a wire to the 79th leg of that chip?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
The only way to 50/60Hz mod a 837-11892-01:PAL model of the Saturn is to lift pin 79 on the VDP chip.

Check out my collection thread for a photo of this mod:
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6836

CF

[retro]

PAL = 50hz = black borders and slower gameplay.
NTSC = 60hz = perfect gameplay, fullspeed

i never talked about the number of games. also all the saturn i saw had switchable power supplyes...

Then what did you mean by this?


it takes 5 mins, give you the advantage of having the 60hz videos and allows you to play the USA games (far more and better than the euro ones).

It sounds like you're saying there are far more USA games than European games, and they're better.

Consider yourself lucky. There are three different ones and they're incompatible. Trust me. And if you don't....


A type and B type power units are not compatible


Power Supply changed from providing 3 voltages (3V, 5V and 9V) to providing one (5V). Not compatible with previous versions.

Incidentally....

A = VA0
B = VA1-VA5
C = VA9

I would assume that VA6-VA8 are type B. If there's anything after VA9, I would assume it to be type C, but it isn't impossible that there's a fourth type (perhaps Japanese-only and incompatible with PAL PSUs).

[karsten]

50hz gaming is better than 60hz? no way. i don't like black borders and crushed pictures so any NTSC game is better than a PAL one (sure there are PAL-60 games too...)

concerning voltage i don't understand what you printed, but i guess i was lucky maybe? in any case i suggested taking the PSU from a PAL machine to fit into a NTSC JAP one (like i did), not the way around. i don't think they have changed the voltage saturns internally run. or they did?

[snk2]

The only way to 50/60Hz mod a 837-11892-01:PAL model of the Saturn is to lift pin 79 on the VDP chip.

Check out my collection thread for a photo of this mod:
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6836

CF

Thanks for the info, only one question: where exactly do i solder the wires for +5V and ground on the board?Underneath the board to the JP1 jumpers, or to the SW4 jumpers?

[ConsoleFun]

Thanks for the info, only one question: where exactly do i solder the wires for +5V and ground on the board?Underneath the board to the JP1 jumpers, or to the SW4 jumpers?

I would take 5VDC and GND directly from the PSU.

CF

[retro]

snk2, doesn't the French site I posted help you? All the information is there - even if you can't read the site, just look at the pictures ;-) If you need +5V, however, you can indeed take it direct from the psu or a +5V line on the board (check the datasheet for a chip, for example).

Kartsen, the second quotes are from the service manual. It states that there are, as I said, three types of PSU. None are cross-compatible. It also states that the third revision has changed voltage - there is now no 3V or 9V line. In short, yes you were lucky ;-) hehe. That said, I think VA1 to VA5 at least should be the same, so you have a fair chance.

As for the 50/60Hz issue, it isn't the games! You can run PAL games at 60Hz with the switch, too! The issue is often poor coding. Incidentally, 50/60Hz doesn't determine the full screen issue, that's just the screen refresh rate. The borders are due to PAL having a BETTER resolution (625 lines) than NTSC (525 lines).

[snk2]

I successfully completed the 50/60Hz mod today on my Saturn, took the 5v and gnd from the psu, and lifted the 79 pin on the vdp chip.Thanks everyone for the help, i am now a happy Saturn camper!

[ConsoleFun]

I successfully completed the 50/60Hz mod today on my Saturn, took the 5v and gnd from the psu, and lifted the 79 pin on the vdp chip.Thanks everyone for the help, i am now a happy Saturn camper!
Congratulations mate! Well done!

[ConsoleFun]

snk2, doesn't the French site I posted help you? All the information is there - even if you can't read the site, just look at the pictures ;-)
No mate. The only way to mod a 837-11892-01:PAL is to lift pin 79.

As you know any 50/60Hz mod on any Saturn will result is GND (50Hz) or 5VDC (60Hz) being applied to pin 79 of the VDP-1.

What makes the 837-11892-01:PAL special is that it has not only one, but two, traces going to pin 79. The second trace is the problem. It is hard to see (and cut), as it is behind the pin, and it goes straight to GND under the chip itself.

Just cutting the trace in front of the pin (as mmmonkey suggest in the end of his guide) or using JP1 (as suggested in the french guide) therefore does not work on this particular model.

[Druid II]

Err... what?? 240 games in Europe and 245 games in the US. That's 5 more games!!
It all depends on how you count, but your numbers are surely inaccurate. There are 20+ titles non-usa titles that were released in Europe. See here:
http://www.satakore.com/exclusive-JPN-EUR.php

As for how many games were released, if you count all commercial releases (including rebundles and rereleases), and all german/spanish/french/etc conversions, there are 299 PAL and 258 USA titles. Many of those are regional dupes though, some games like Fifa Road to World Cup had as many as 5 different releases.

[retro]

No mate. The only way to mod a 837-11892-01:PAL is to lift pin 79.

As you know any 50/60Hz mod on any Saturn will result is GND (50Hz) or 5VDC (60Hz) being applied to pin 79 of the VDP-1.

What makes the 837-11892-01:PAL special is that it has not only one, but two, traces going to pin 79. The second trace is the problem. It is hard to see (and cut), as it is behind the pin, and it goes straight to GND under the chip itself.

Just cutting the trace in front of the pin (as mmmonkey suggest in the end of his guide) or using JP1 (as suggested in the french guide) therefore does not work on this particular model.

Mmm, interesting! Cheers for the info. And yeah, certainly lifting the pin is always going to do it and avoid the need to cut the board.... but watch out for the pin snapping ;-)


It all depends on how you count, but your numbers are surely inaccurate. There are 20+ titles non-usa titles that were released in Europe. See here:
http://www.satakore.com/exclusive-JPN-EUR.php

As for how many games were released, if you count all commercial releases (including rebundles and rereleases), and all german/spanish/french/etc conversions, there are 299 PAL and 258 USA titles. Many of those are regional dupes though, some games like Fifa Road to World Cup had as many as 5 different releases.

Nah, my numbers are spot on! Repacks and language conversions don't count for the point of how many GAMES there are! You can't say - well, the US has Andretti Racing making one game, but Europe has Andretti Racing in English, Andretti Racing in French and Andretti Racing in German, making 3 games! Nonono, it is ONE game with three VARIANTS. Likewise for, say, Bomberman in card and plastic cases, or Crypt Killer with different artwork. Same GAME, different packaging / artwork. Oh, and I don't count demos in this, either! Or the Photo CD ;-)

Also, I did mention that some of those releases were only available in one territory or the other, so you can't use that argument either, I'm afraid ;-)

My point was that his claim that the US have FAR more games than Europe was incorrect.

[fishfash]

The links will still be there and probably marked the same, just look around.

e.g. : http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/sega/saturnregion3.htm (yeah that's for region switching, but you get the point).

What about this?

http://guidesat.free.fr/tutoriaux/switch/switch01.html

Great thanks :icon_bigg

I used the tutorial from the French site and was able to mod my Model 1 Saturn to 60 HZ. I have a 171-7131A - 837-12135 version.

I also just soldered the two points together with a small wire as I just required the 60HZ option only, and did not require a switch.

Out of interest, by lifting Pin 79, I presume just by doing this puts the Saturn into 60HZ mode ? I presume by adding the wires to Pin 79 are so that one can switch between 50HZ and 60HZ ?

Thanks.

[fishfash]

Great thanks :icon_bigg

I used the tutorial from the French site and was able to mod my Model 1 Saturn to 60 HZ. I have a 171-7131A - 837-12135 version.

I also just soldered the two points together with a small wire as I just required the 60HZ option only, and did not require a switch.

Out of interest, by lifting Pin 79, I presume just by doing this puts the Saturn into 60HZ mode ? I presume by adding the wires to Pin 79 are so that one can switch between 50HZ and60HZ ?

Thanks.

Just to quote myself :lol:

I have now added a toggle switch into my Saturn.

I have noticed though that the Saturn no longer auto switch's to the RGB scart channel when turning on. I also only get a composite signal when I switch to 60HZ, but I get an RGB signal via 50HZ.

I also have another model 1 saturn which I have modded with the 50/60 hz switch by lifting pin 79. With this saturn it auto switches to the scart channel when turned on and I get an RGB picture on 60 HZ.

I am using the same cables for both Saturns.

Has anyone else come across this issue ?

Thanks.

[Bearking]

Hey i posted this on NFGgames a while ago but no one has helped me so far. I'm hoping someone in here can point me in the right direction.

"Hello http://nfggames.com/forum2/Smileys/default/smiley.gif

Been trying to make my Japanese Model 1 Saturn display in 50Hz for those few PAL games that wont run in 60Hz properly. I already have the region mod figured out, no problem. And i have 50/60Hz modified several PAL machines with great results.

This Saturn is the very first model 1 Saturn. The one with double LED's. The motherboard says V0.5.

I figured that Jumper 1 would be a good place to start since that's the one used when doing this mod on a MegaDrive. I located JP1 in no time and confirmed that it was indeed connected to pin 79 of the Videochip. Just like this guide says: http://mmmonkey.co.uk/console/sega/saturn5060.htm

The common point between JP1 and JP2 was connected by a thin trace to 5V. I cut that trace, made sure there was no connection and soldered wires to the three points:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/Konsolkongen/27072010587.jpg?t=1280249790
Blue is common, Green is Ground and Yellow is 5V.

After connecting these wires to a switch the mod should now be working... (common to middle leg... http://nfggames.com/forum2/Smileys/default/wink.gif )

Well when the switch is set to 60Hz (5V) the Saturn works perfectly like it always has. When set to 50Hz (Ground) this is what happens:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/Konsolkongen/27072010593.jpg?t=1280253597

I only get a black screen when using my XRGB-3 http://nfggames.com/forum2/Smileys/default/sad.gif

My PAL Saturn which has the same mods works perfectly in 50Hz on my TV and XRGB-3.

Can i do something to make this Saturn show in 50Hz too or can it simply not be done?

Here are two pictures showing the Motherboard on both sides:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/Konsolkongen/27072010589.jpg?t=1280254253
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/Konsolkongen/27072010590.jpg?t=1280254253

Thank you http://nfggames.com/forum2/Smileys/default/smiley.gif"

I read in this thread that there are Saturns which can only be modded by lifting pin 79 on the videochip and supplying that with GND/5V. Naturally this was my next attempt and i would say that the procedure went very well even though i don't like bending legs on chips :)

Unfortunately now nothing works. When turning the Saturn on i only get a black screen with very little to no noise at all. This does seem to change a bit when switching between 50/60Hz.

I'm guessing there is a good change that the Saturn has fried. Have tried to 50/60Hz mod other JAP Saturns (Model 2) using the same theory and both times they have died. I simply don't understand why when my PAL models works great afterwards.

I'm leaning towards it can't be done, but then again i saw a fully modded Skeleton JAP Saturn on eBay a few years ago, so it must be possible right?

Hope someone can cast some light on this. Thank you :)

[splith]

The garbled video output looks like it's outputting a 50Hz signal in 60Hz mode, i.e. the crystal is wrong.

The same thing happens on an NTSC SNES if you do the 50/60 swap and change the crystal over to a PAL one

[Bearking]

What is a crystal and how do i change it?

[splith]

Well it's an 'xtal' on the motherboard usually, and mainly a silver rounded-corners component. Though sometimes can be plastic, and might be inside the chip and unchangable, getting the schematics for the board would be your best hope, that is if that is the problem with it. (I know nothing about this)

[Bearking]

For some reason i was thinking RC cars crystals... ;) I know of the things you are talking about. The component that best fits the description is this one although it might be too small?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/Konsolkongen/27072010589_3.jpg?t=1281738919

[splith]

Yeh that's one, though that's probablhy for the CPU not the GPU

[Bearking]

Hmm so overclocking a Saturn could be possible that way?

EDIT: What pin would the crystal be connected to on the video chip?

[splith]

Not a clue.
Well you can overclock anything, but it won't necesserally work.

[link83]

Just curious, once you have lifted the pin 79 and connected it to a switch have you then restored the trace on JP1/JP2 that was previously connected to 5V?

[Bearking]

No i have not. That does actually make a lot of sense. I will try that later :)

[Bearking]

And it works!! F..k YEAH! Thank you very much for your help :)

[Bearking]

About that overclocking. That crystal is labeled 14.3M and assuming that the Saturn CPU's multiply the input clock signal by 2 that matches the 28.63 MHz (according to wiki) speed of the CPU's.

I overclocked a MegaDrive 1 once by using an oscillator at 12Mhz which worked fine.

What if i try the same on the Saturn using a 15 or 16Mhz oscillator? Assuming i wire it up correctly what could be the worst case scenario? If it fails, there should be a pretty good chance that i can switch back to the old crystal and have a working console again, right?

[coje]

I recently did with my friend (helped with soldering) 60Hz modification according to Panzer Mike tutorial on my Saturn and it works. Now I am finally playing Panzer Dragoon Saga in fullscreen, fullspeed as it was meant to be played. Thanks for your tutorial Panzer Mike.

[Druid II]

About that overclocking. That crystal is labeled 14.3M and assuming that the Saturn CPU's multiply the input clock signal by 2 that matches the 28.63 MHz (according to wiki) speed of the CPU's.

I overclocked a MegaDrive 1 once by using an oscillator at 12Mhz which worked fine.

What if i try the same on the Saturn using a 15 or 16Mhz oscillator? Assuming i wire it up correctly what could be the worst case scenario? If it fails, there should be a pretty good chance that i can switch back to the old crystal and have a working console again, right?

Old topic but: PAL consoles use a 17.734mhz oscillator marked as X1, NTSC ones use a 14.318 one. That leaves me to believe that this oscillator is primarily used for the video output color subcarrier calculation (which is X1 / 4 in both cases), and that the clockspeed of the console itself is generated from a different source, perhaps one of the main cpus has an internal oscillator.

[l_oliveira]

Old topic but: PAL consoles use a 17.734mhz oscillator marked as X1, NTSC ones use a 14.318 one. That leaves me to believe that this oscillator is primarily used for the video output color subcarrier calculation (which is X1 / 4 in both cases), and that the clockspeed of the console itself is generated from a different source, perhaps one of the main cpus has an internal oscillator.

There's a jumper on the PLL chip. If you toggle it, it works with either 17MHZ or 14MHZ.

The jumper actually changes the Hitachi PLL chip behavior.

And clock for the whole system (exception being the SMPC which has it's own 4mhz clock source and the SCSP which is clocked by the CD-ROM drive @33mhz) comes from that PLL.

[Druid II]

How does that affect the Tectoy models which use 14.302mhz instead of 14.318?

And it's a hitachi chip? Where did you get that info? I only see the standard SEGA serial on it - and later Saturny used a Cypress chip instead.

edit: which jumper are we talking about? JP3 to 5 are the only ones near the PLL chip, and they are set to the same values on both PAL and NTSC machines. JP20-21 exists near the PLL chip, but I only see it on one type of motherboard out of four.

[l_oliveira]

How does that affect the Tectoy models which use 14.302mhz instead of 14.318?

And it's a hitachi chip? Where did you get that info? I only see the standard SEGA serial on it - and later Saturny used a Cypress chip instead.

edit: which jumper are we talking about? JP3 to 5 are the only ones near the PLL chip, and they are set to the same values on both PAL and NTSC machines. JP20-21 exists near the PLL chip, but I only see it on one type of motherboard out of four.


PAL-M color carrier is 3.575611mhz and the PAL-M crystal is 14.30244Mhz. It's a PAL-60 encoding which is supposed to be compatible with USA TV tuners and transmission equipment ("M" broadcasting system) so that's why the carrier is of an frequency close to 3.579545Mhz.

NTSC is 3.579545Mhz and the 4x crystal is 14.31818.

The 14.31818 clock is also standard/common on personal computers, because the IBM-PC and most of it's chips were designed on the United States .... :lol:

[Druid II]

I know about PAL-M. My point was, if the main clockspeed is derived from that crystal, doesn't it mean that Tectoy Saturns run at slightly lower clockspeeds?

[l_oliveira]

I know about PAL-M. My point was, if the main clockspeed is derived from that crystal, doesn't it mean that Tectoy Saturns run at slightly lower clockspeeds?

The frequency difference is minimal even after multiplying. I doubt anyone would notice ... :thumbsup:

The Brazilian SNES and NES consoles used 21.453666Mhz clock crystal and you won't notice any difference from them and their NTSC counterpart. :nod:

[Druid II]

Well, the vdp1/2 are also locked in speed by the same crystal, and the screen goes crazy if the clocks are wrong. So I guess the frequency difference is indeed small enough to not matter.

[l_oliveira]

Well, the vdp1/2 are also locked in speed by the same crystal, and the screen goes crazy if the clocks are wrong. So I guess the frequency difference is indeed small enough to not matter.

If the PLL is set to run with the PAL clock, you get 4mhz from the PLL, not 3.57 mhz.

The color carrier is generated at pin 28 of the Hitachi PLL chip then is sent through an filter circuit composed of a 2,2kohm resistor and a capacitor I believe be of 22pf.

If you change the PLL jumper (JP4/JP5 on VA0.5, JP5 closed for NTSC) the crystal has to be 17MHZ and obviously you get the VDPs to crap out from underclocking if you put a 14MHZ crystal. :shrug:

I am assuming you're into a PAL region. I had to "transform" an PAL Saturn to NTSC for a guy once and it was a nightmare until I found out about the jumper to change the PLL base frequency. :lol:

[Druid II]

I wasn't talking about pal/ntsc here, I meant the difference with the 14.302mhz crystal vs the 14.318 one, being small enough for the system to still work.

Not sure you are right about JP4/5 though. It's grounded on all VA0 to VA5 saturns I can see (jp5 closed), both PAL and NTSC. VA6+ systems don't even have those jumpers... VA6+ NTSC models use a Cypress CY2292 PLL, while VA6+ PAL models still use the sega/hitachi 315-5746 chip. (which Hitachi chip is this, by the way?). I can only assume that the Cypress chip can't handle the 17.734 clock, so they just reused the older chip for PAL models.

Anyway, I've found a 14.318mhz clock on an old junk board and soldered it to the Saturn: I had to change the input on pin 1 of the PLL for the new clock to work.

So
17.734mhz clock + pin 1 GND = works,
14.318mhz clock + pin 1 +5v = works,
But if pin1 is set to something else, the display goes dodo. I can only assume that this is the PLL jumper pin then.
It would also explain why so many guides mention lifting pin 1 of the PLL (or cutting a trace to it) for 50/60hz mods to work...

[l_oliveira]

To get the Hitachi part number I'd have to disassemble my gray Saturn but I'll only do that if I need to open it for some other reason.

Well, the JP4/5 go to pin 7 of the PLL which is also at one of the edges of the chip.

Also there's a JP3 which goes to GND. I aways assumed that JP3 enables the other crystal postition (exists only on VA0/0.5 board) and again I suppose that second crystal is meant to be used as an override for the color carrier signal. :thumbsup:

[Druid II]

Well can you tell me where should I look for it? I have a disassembled machine right next to me. The only part number I see is the Sega one, 315-5746.

I haven't tested what JP3-4-5 do. But the pal/ntsc crystal multiplier is on pin 1 of that chip for sure.

There is a slot for a secondary crystal (X2), connected to pins 9-10, but this position is left empty on all the Saturns I've seen. Only exception is my VA9 PAL model: there, X2 is the pal crystal, X1 is empty... but X2 is just an extension to the X1 slot here!

[l_oliveira]

Well can you tell me where should I look for it? I have a disassembled machine right next to me. The only part number I see is the Sega one, 315-5746.

I haven't tested what JP3-4-5 do. But the pal/ntsc crystal multiplier is on pin 1 of that chip for sure.

There is a slot for a secondary crystal (X2), connected to pins 9-10, but this position is left empty on all the Saturns I've seen. Only exception is my VA9 PAL model: there, X2 is the pal crystal, X1 is empty... but X2 is just an extension to the X1 slot here!

Only VERY OLD (1st run) gray Saturns will have the PLL bearing the Hitachi part number. Some (earliest possible units) even have the VDP2 in ceramic package ... :shrug:

Why you don't compare a PAL unit with a NTSC unit and check how the PLL is configured. I don't have any PAL units here to check and the modding I mentioned was done in 1996. I don't have any fresh memories of it neither I kept notes. :rolleyes:

[Druid II]

I haven't seen a Saturn as early as that. I know that old models use EPROM bioses and I've seen one with a ceramic (?) SCU (that was possibly a prototype unit), but not one with a ceramic VDP2, or a PLL that isn't a 315-5746.

By the way, I've changed pin 1 to +5v and added a 14.318 crystal - now I get NTSC color encoding, but the colors are off. They have jailbars and the hue is all wrong . I've also changed the R42 resistor on the cxa1645 to 20k (from 16k), but it's still like that. Lifting PLL pin7 and connecting it to +5v made no difference.

I don't have NTSC units, I can only compare the schematic pdf we have. But on my VA3 unit, the jumpers are set up a little different: JP4/5 completely matches (gnd/5v switcher to PLL pin 7, with jp5 closed). But JP3 connects from PLL pin 10 to the opened pin on JP4 (so it's not connected to anything... Pins 8-9 are also not connected to anything.

EDIT: Nevermind. CXA1645 pin 7 was grounded elsewhere. That's why the colors are off. Fixing it tomorrow.

[Bad_Ad84]

I have one of the early consoles with the DIP bios, but its not EPROM - its still a maskrom but its just DIP.

[Druid II]

Thats a standard VA0 model (all HST-3200 grey saturns are like that). But, apparently VERY EARLY va0 models still used EPROM, among with other oddities.

l_olivera: can you make a pic of the serial on the back of the console, for that machine that you know for sure to use the Hitachi PLL? That way, I can at least know approximately which machines may use it.

[qabbalist]

i have a oval button saturn very early model with the blue reset button in the battery compartment model :MK-80200-50
i did the switchless mod on it had to lift pin 79 for 50/60hz as i tried the SW4 way and my saturn used to lockup everytime i tried to switch to 60hz
everything seems to work fine this way all games boot fine in all regions but when i try to put in 60hz the screen on the bottom lifts up having about 3-4 inches black on the bottom of the screen
its a pal console connected using a scart cable connected to my 3d lcd tv
any ideas please guys

[Bad_Ad84]

You probably didnt need to lift pin 79, JP1 and JP2 would have probably done it

[qabbalist]

No mate. The only way to mod a 837-11892-01:PAL is to lift pin 79.

As you know any 50/60Hz mod on any Saturn will result is GND (50Hz) or 5VDC (60Hz) being applied to pin 79 of the VDP-1.

What makes the 837-11892-01:PAL special is that it has not only one, but two, traces going to pin 79. The second trace is the problem. It is hard to see (and cut), as it is behind the pin, and it goes straight to GND under the chip itself.

Just cutting the trace in front of the pin (as mmmonkey suggest in the end of his guide) or using JP1 (as suggested in the french guide) therefore does not work on this particular model.

this is the same board numbers as mine 837-11892-01:PAL when my machine was locking up on the SW4 pad i tried this info and all seems ok apart from when i try to switch to 60 hertz the games dont crash/freeze still playable
guess i'll try jp1 way see if that works

thanx for quick reply
guess i'll give

[Bad_Ad84]

If the post you quoted is correct (not personally seen that board), then you would need to lift the pin.

Have you tried powering off the console and back on after changing modes? rather than doing it while its on?

[qabbalist]

If the post you quoted is correct (not personally seen that board), then you would need to lift the pin.

Have you tried powering off the console and back on after changing modes? rather than doing it while its on?

yes

i just noticed i got 2x different scarts and 1 scart lifts the bottom of the screen and the other pulls the screen down lol both scarts have the same pin outs

i dont have no imports at hand that have 60hz default i sold them with the last saturn i modded and im still waiting on my chip to come for backups to run on my console

[Druid II]

What makes the 837-11892-01:PAL special is that it has not only one, but two, traces going to pin 79. The second trace is the problem. It is hard to see (and cut), as it is behind the pin, and it goes straight to GND under the chip itself.

This is not entirely correct. In this type of motherboard, the VDP2 pin 79 is still connected to the PLL pin 1. Neither are connected to GND (!), though it's a moot point since both are pulled low internally. This seems to be a design oversight, since on model 1 PAL boards, both pins should have external jumpers (VA0, 3 and 5 have them).

So on this board, you either have to lift the PLL pin 1, or cut a trace here:

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3391/va1paltracecut.jpg

This will make the SW4 connector work. Of course you can also just lift the VDP2 pin 79, that works on ALL Saturns.
837-11892-01 is a VA1 PAL board (model 1 oval button), by the way.


You probably didnt need to lift pin 79, JP1 and JP2 would have probably done it
The JP1/2 method doesn't work on this type of board, since that line is also connected to the PLL chip. In fact jp1/2 never works on its own, unless SW4 is present (in which case you should just use that).

[qabbalist]

thanx for the info

i have lifted vdp2 pin 79 and have connected it to the switchless mod just have minor fault getting 60hz (not a big deal but would be nice for everything to work properly)
could it be a problem with my lcd tv? hx803
i dont have no old tv's (crt)to test it on no pc monitor i use my tv
all other tv's in the house are lcd's

[Druid II]

If you get the picture stretched beyond the TV screen (the bottom is cut off), that happens because you switched a PAL optimized title into 60hz.