N64 PAL/NTSC Possible ?

[emu_kidid]

I noticed in this post here:
http://assemblergames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=234453&postcount=61
That the N64 has a PAL/NTSC switch. Is this possible without soldering on another bootrom or similar chip?

[DarthCloud]

I think pal and ntsc in this context refert to the CIC region lock. (Edit: you probably allready know that)

It's probably a 6 way switch to switch between the ntsc and pal n64 internal CIC. Probably something similar to the d4s mod.

[emu_kidid]

Yep just saw that's how it's done (on another forum). Time to find a bundle of spare NTSC N64's to mess with then!

[DarthCloud]

Btw if other people interrested in this, here the two files you need:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e36/DarthCloud/post-9-1075809366.gif

[kammedo]

Yeah ^^! Really neat :D! Thanks Darth Cloud!

[andoba]

Wait, wouldn't switching the VCC do the job? Is a 7 SW IC really needed?

[Matthijscoman]

This one´s a bit more clear :) :

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3741/n64securitychipmodmm6.jpg

I think there are a couple of other methods to mod a N64 to play PAL and NTSC, but as far as I know this is the only way to make it play EVERY game. All other mods have an amount of games that won´t run.

[DarthCloud]

Nice! Finally the original pic :D

[JackAz!]

I'm guessing swc is a switch? Keen on trying this on one of the 7 N64s I have laying around. :P

[Matthijscoman]

Yep, it is. :)

[emu_kidid]

Would anyone happen to have a way to make this into a single switch? (I'm a electronics n00b when it comes to things like that)

[DarthCloud]

You need a 6PDT (6 pole double throw) switch for that. I looked over digikey and they have that in stock for ~1$ for slide type

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=EG1925-ND


In push button type they have for ~2$:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=401-1194-ND


I don't know from which country you come from but look for a "On-On 6PDT Switch"

Also many type of switch exist like the two I have sugested are slide & push button type. However the one used in the picture you posted in your first post is a "rocker" type switch.

Hope this help you a bit.

[emu_kidid]

Cool, thanks, got it sorted, now I'm just waiting for my NTSC PIF to arrive :P

[Nintendomad]

I have done the modification and it works, unfortunately, the unit that I had that I modified just broke one day due to me not shielding the wires on the modification enough.

This mod is not for the lighthearted, it took me a wekk to get it right, and there is a tonne of soldering involved, as well as desoldering and I would stress the shielding part, once the mod is done, it's tricky to get it to fit into the Nintendo 64 with all the extra bits and pieces, and I done mines on a little daughterboard, anyway, over time, my mod ,because it wasn't screwed in place as it should have been got closer to the main board, before damaging it(the main board.).

Also I used multiple switches for the modification, to ensure that everything swiched correctly, and didn't put too much stress on one switch, and also to give myself more room, as you will see how difficult this is once you start it, desoldering the chip off the board is hard enough, then you have to make a multitude of wires connect to different point's, and give yourself some room or you'l fuck it up, trust me.

If I done it again, I would probably actually make a little external box for the board the mod is done on to give the n64 and me some room, and make sure it didn't break again.

But the mod works 100 percent, as I said though, give yourself pleanty of room, and plenty of time, as it is a very long and frustrating modification, and is not for a beginner, or even intermediate modder, the soldering skils required for this are definetly expert. Also as I said you can use multiple switches, like a couple of DPDT switches and another switch for the voltage.

I have to stress again, though, this is for experts only!!! I actually managed to sell the n64 on that I modded, and someone took the time to repair it, and get the mod working again, at the time, I just couldn't be arsed, and I got such a great offer on the console due to the mod being essentially done. Trust me, this adds serious value to any N64 as the time involved is serious labour.

EDIT: Also I came across a guy in Germany once who actually made the n64 a little chunkier to accomodate the modification , and that was the tidiest version of the mod I have seen, he made the n64 chunkier by cutting plastic and what not, and putting it inbetwqeen the split on the unit, not too much though, about an inch, so cartridges wouldn't be affected, though this seems like a pain in the ass to me, and I would just add a litttle external bit the next time if I can be arsed going through it again.

[Nintendomad]

This one´s a bit more clear :) :

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3741/n64securitychipmodmm6.jpg

I think there are a couple of other methods to mod a N64 to play PAL and NTSC, but as far as I know this is the only way to make it play EVERY game. All other mods have an amount of games that won´t run.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THIS WORK!! Not shouting, just stressing, there is no shortcut round any of the mod. Though I am sure you could use less switches than i used the first time like darthcloud says., that would be neater, and save space, but you would have to be very skilled. Also absolutely essential to this mod, and the protection of your n64 it's in, is the grounding of pins 14, 12, and 10 on the PIF chips, this is absolutely essential, as this is where many people have screwed up the mod.

[radorn]

you may be interested in reading this here, if only the last post.
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2531.0

Apparently, that mod doesn't completely isolate one chip from the other, and they may interfere in some cases and cause problems. They suggest it may be wise to switch other pins too.

[ElBarto]

What's the advantage of doing that instead of using an adaptater ?

[DarthCloud]

What's the advantage of doing that instead of using an adaptater ?

1 - All game work

2 - Don't need to save on another cartridge for game who use eeprom for saving.

3 - No ugly adapter ;)

[radorn]

Adapters DIE. Mine died... no more Conker's Bad Fur Day for me :(
They do that quite easily. a few codes put in a wrong way, and voila, "firmware" overwritten, adapter dead... thrilling huh? xD

[Oldgamingfart]

If PAL/JP/US N64 cartridges all had a different cartridge tab layout, maybe it might be possible to utilize pressure switches (with this mod)? The N64 would then know which mode to use for each cartridge type without needing to switch over manually.
I think the Jp and PAL tabs are the same so it's probably not possible unfortunately. Also, I don't know if there's enough space under the cartridge slot to fit said switches. Interesting idea though.

[Calpis]

Apparently, that mod doesn't completely isolate one chip from the other, and they may interfere in some cases and cause problems. They suggest it may be wise to switch other pins too.
The lines probably aren't bidirectional, so really all you need to switch are output signals keeping everything else connected. Switching the chips via VCC isn't very effective and will positively add instability to the device. You definitely don't want to switch all lines though, that would be ridiculous. Depending on the number of true outputs, I would switch using either multiplexers or tristate buffers, of the 74ACT family. They are certainly fast enough unlike the 4066. 4000 series isn't even suitable for the N64's low voltage.

Really I wouldn't bother with this at all, I don't know exactly how the existing software adapters are implemented but I think boot emulators work across regions, so all you need in theory is a plugin cart to start the code. The obvious benefit of the boot emulator is that you don't need a convoluted mod in your console, or need manual switching, or even need the original CIC at all!


2 - Don't need to save on another cartridge for game who use eeprom for saving.
This is only the case if the EEPROM is wired to the boot cartridge (originally seen as a feature), reworking a couple signals in such an adapter will fix this.


Adapters DIE. Mine died... no more Conker's Bad Fur Day for me :(
They do that quite easily. a few codes put in a wrong way, and voila, "firmware" overwritten, adapter dead... thrilling huh? xD
Considering how N64 cheats patch RAM once the game is running, and that the firmware ROM is on the entirely separate cartridge bus, and is FlashROM which takes multiple magic word writes to erase, this is VERY unlikely.

[d4s]

This one´s a bit more clear :) :

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3741/n64securitychipmodmm6.jpg

I think there are a couple of other methods to mod a N64 to play PAL and NTSC, but as far as I know this is the only way to make it play EVERY game. All other mods have an amount of games that won´t run.

I created that schematic myself years ago and I have to tell you one thing: It's utter crap. I can't recommend performing that mod to anyone. It somehow worked at the time, but that one was created back when I didn't know shit about electronics.

If you are serious about such a mod, get the proper PIF-pinout (http://www.crazynation.org/N64/n64_cart_info.htm) and try to work out something from there, preferably using the Reset-circuitry or proceeding as Caplis suggested.

[DarthCloud]

If PAL/JP/US N64 cartridges all had a different cartridge tab layout, maybe it might be possible to utilize pressure switches (with this mod)? The N64 would then know which mode to use for each cartridge type without needing to switch over manually.
I think the Jp and PAL tabs are the same so it's probably not possible unfortunately. Also, I don't know if there's enough space under the cartridge slot to fit said switches. Interesting idea though.

No you cannot "mechanically detect" cartridge cause both pal and japan cartridge have the same plastic casing like you said. But i think it would be possible to detect the game region in the same way n64 know that you cartridge region is wrong using the CIC.

[Oldgamingfart]

Yes, it would be an even neater mod if the cartridge was auto detected.

[radorn]

I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that would be a mounstruous mod.

The N64 uses a security scheme in which there are several components involved.

Apart from the tabs in the cartridge bay, the electronic measures consist of this.

The console has the PIF, which stands for Peripheral InterFace, for which there are two kinds, PIF-NUS and PIF(P)-NUS (NTSC and PAL respectively), which take care of controlling the peripherals, like the controllers, and one very special kind of peripheral, the CIC microcontrollers located on the cartridges.
These babies not only have NTSC and PAL variants, but also there are at least 5 variants for each zone, and each game works with ONE and ONLY ONE of these. There's some communications going on between the PIF the CIC and some checksumming involving the game's ROM that should come out right for the game to boot (some games with extra protection also make additional checks during the game, like PD, and will degrade the experience if this fails, which happens with bootloaders which can only patch the initial check for booting).

An autoswitching mod would involve some kind of PIF clone capable of communicating with the CIC, make some voodoo to determine it's region and then activate the corresponding real PIF, all of that before the main deck becomes too impatient and decides "authentication" has failed.

Too much for something that can be solved with some simple switches.
I think it would probably be more feasible to develop an N64 clone with the low-level info that some individuals at the emulation scene are reverse-engineering, than making such a monstruous mod and have it coexist with the existing hardware.

[Oldgamingfart]

So....anyone good at voodoo, LOL? Oh well, thanks for enlightening us with your N64 know-how. You guys man, you really know the ins and outs of these things :thumbsup:

[bobzee]

Yes, it would be an even neater mod if the cartridge was auto detected.

This shouldn't be too difficult in theory.

Within 1 second of the N64 being powered on with a valid cart, a sync pulse(~15kHz) is output to pin 3 of the A/V socket, but with a wrong region cart, the pin just goes high, no pulse.

So, you could use an LM1881 to check for the sync pulse after a 1sec delay (using an NE555).

If sync is present, then no action is required and the game will boot as normal.

If the sync is not present, this could drive the appropriate logic ic's, perhaps a bus switch, to switch over to the opposite PIF chip while triggering a reset.

No doubt, it's not a simple project, but do-able for the stubborn ones among us.

[andoba]

These babies not only have NTSC and PAL variants, but also there are at least 5 variants for each zone, and each game works with ONE and ONLY ONE of these.

If I get an UK game it won't work on my Spanish system?

[bobzee]

If I get an UK game it won't work on my Spanish system?

The N64 is split into 3 regions:
NTSC-US
NTSC-JAP
PAL-EUR

The NTSC US and Japan carts are electronically the same, the only difference is the shape of the carts.
A US cart wont fit into a Japanese console and vice-versa, however, by removing the lugs inside the cart slot, you can then play US games on a Japanese console and vice-versa as the carts both identify themselves as 'NTSC' regardless of US/Japan.

UK carts identify themselves as PAL and will not run on any NTSC console, unless you use a passport adaptor or perform the mod detailed earlier in this thread.

The chips being discussed in the post you quoted are more to do with security, rather than region locking.

[radorn]

If I get an UK game it won't work on my Spanish system?

Of course it will work.

bobzee already explained the region lock scheme nintendo made for the n64, but I want to clarify what I meant with "5 variants for each zone", since it seems you misinterpreted it as the PAL and NTSC zones being subdivided again into different zones, and each being asigned one chip. But that's not what I meant.
As CIC chips are concerned, there are ONLY two zones, PAL and NTSC, but there are variants of the chip and a game developper could choose which one to use in an attempt co counter the method that backup units use to run games, which is "piggybacking" a cart to use it's cic chip to boot the rom loaded into the backup unit's memory.

NTSC - PAL
6102 - 7101 (not a typo) This is the first and most common chip that is used by games like mario64, pilotwings, goldeneye, and many others.
6103 - 7103 Used by Banjo Kazooie, for example
6105 - 7105 Both Zelda games, Perfect Dark...
etc.

This means that, a NTSC game that uses one of these chips, will (most likely) use the equivalent PAL version in their PAL release (Europe, Australia, etc). NTSC CIC's won't be accepted by a PAL machine and viceversa.
These are the chips that are present in the games I have, I'm not exatly sure of the numbering of the other ones and their equivalence between NTSC and PAL.

[andoba]

If I get an NTSC game, desolder the CIC from a PAL game with an equivalent CIC, and put it into my NTSC game it will work in my PAL console?

Sorry for all the questions. XD

[DarthCloud]

If I get an NTSC game, desolder the CIC from a PAL game with an equivalent CIC, and put it into my NTSC game it will work in my PAL console?

Sorry for all the questions. XD

Yes, but the game will output video signal at 60hz make sure your tv can handle that (most modern pal tv can)

[andoba]

Yes, but the game will output video signal at 60hz make sure your tv can handle that (most modern pal tv can)

The TV can for sure, most of my consoles are japanese and my PAL machines output 60 Hz (DC and newer), but the Nintendo 64 will be able to handle it?

[DarthCloud]

The TV can for sure, most of my consoles are japanese and my PAL machines output 60 Hz (DC and newer), but the Nintendo 64 will be able to handle it?

Yes no problem with 50/60hz, it's just a parameter set by software. Some game like zelda master quest event output pal60....

[link83]

Can I just ask - what decides if an N64 game is 50 or 60hz? Is it the hardware or software?

I know no-one has managed to make a 50/60hz switch yet, but I just have this feeling that it 'is' possible - or am I totally wrong?

How did N64 development systems switch between 50/60hz?

TIA :icon_bigg

[DarthCloud]

Can I just ask - what decides if an N64 game is 50 or 60hz? Is it the hardware or software?

I know no-one has managed to make a 50/60hz switch yet, but I just have this feeling that it 'is' possible - or am I totally wrong?

How did N64 development systems switch between 50/60hz?

TIA :icon_bigg

It's software driven, so no 50/60hz switch

[link83]

It's software driven, so no 50/60hz switch
Thanks for your reply. Im just wondering though - why when I play a PAL and NTSC version of a game on an emulator do I not get any borders on either version?

Is it absolutely positively software? (So no chance of there ever being a switch?) Is there nothing I could add between a PAL cart and the N64 to trick it into booting in 60hz?

Thanks again

[DarthCloud]

Thanks for your reply. Im just wondering though - why when I play a PAL and NTSC version of a game on an emulator do I not get any borders on either version?

Is it absolutely positively software? (So no chance of there ever being a switch?) Is there nothing I could add between a PAL cart and the N64 to trick it into booting in 60hz?

Thanks again

In fact border is a matter of resolution, I'm not an expert but I think that all n64 game use the same resolution whatever signal encoding and refresh rate used. You see border on pal snes game cause Nintendo somewhat badly designed their pal support.

Everything is possible you know, but time and patience is rare, there might be a way to force video output to always 60hz or vice-versa but I don't think someone will take time to make research on this since you can simply buy a TV that can handle both 50 and 60hz.

Unlike snes (or older system with weird pal support) their is no benefit in "in-game speed". Only benefit is a higher refresh rate of picture on 60hz.

[thetoillmainn]

NTSC - PAL
6102 - 7101 (not a typo) This is the first and most common chip that is used by games like mario64, pilotwings, goldeneye, and many others.
6103 - 7103 Used by Banjo Kazooie, for example
6105 - 7105 Both Zelda games, Perfect Dark...
etc.

If I get an NTSC game, desolder the CIC from a PAL game with an equivalent CIC, and put it into my NTSC game it will work in my PAL console?

Yes, but the game will output video signal at 60hz make sure your tv can handle that (most modern pal tv can)

Ok, first of all I'm sorry to bring up this old thread to you guys again but I have a question.

Is it possible to somehow desolder the CIC from a PAL game and solder it into a PAL console to make it get a clear signal to start any game every single time? This would make it possible to run NTSC games as well if I'm not entirely lost here. If this is possible somehow. Could anyone try it?
To be hones I have almost no experience with electronics and such, this is just something I started thinking of while reading this topic. Again, I'm sorry to bring up this old thread.

[splith]

You could do that if you knew how the data was recieved, and what data it was, and how long it lasted, etc. then depending on how it was sent, either cut the traces to the cartridge slot or create an IC that holds the cartridge data pins low for a short time, etc.

Much more effort than it's worth.

Another option could be to solder the CIC chip connections very near to the motherboard CIC chip, but I'm unsure of how it works in respect to getting a valid CIC code and then getting an invalid one.

[thetoillmainn]

Ah, yeah. I guess what I thought would have been too easy or someone would have done it already. But wouldn't it be possible to program a chip to do something like that? Exactly like the other modchips work by making it believe it's running a licensed game.
Anyways, thank you for a fast reply!

[splith]

I'm unsure of how the N64 CIC works, the SNES and NES systems worked by just checking for a signal and then making a pin go from high to low which enabled the CPU. The N64 version could make use of cyphers and encryption or whatnot, so you'd either need to find out how the chip worked or get the schematics for it.

[marshallh]

On boot, the PIF inside the n64 starts sending a very, very long sequence of random numbers to the CIC. The PIF is always reading the response back (this is a continuous process while the N64 is turned on).

Once the PIF is happy with the values it's getting back, it releases NMI on the R4300. This causes an NMI interrupt on the cpu, and causes it to start executing code from the memory location 0xBFC00000. Because all the memory is accessed through the RCP, this small segment of memory is mapped to a small almost 2k chunk of ROM in the PIF called PIF-rom.

The code in there is r4300 executable code. The actual boot process is pretty convoluted, that's another time. But about halfway through the sequence of boot programs, the R4300 reads from PIF ram (small 64byte area) and this contains values used in the calculation of the CIC seed. (6102 seed is 0x3f)

The way a game determines whether it's running on a PAL or NTSC console is simple - it's hardcoded in the PIF rom.

If you have a logic analyzer and some tools you can put probes on the lines that go from the PIF to the RCP and catch all the contents of the pif ROM as it's read. This is the only way to get access to it, because after the boot process you will read all 0's from where the PIFrom used to be mapped.

Once you have it dumped you can look for the instruction that loads the register s4 (something like li s4, 0x01) and change it to 0x0 for PAL, and 0x1 for NTSC.

You can also use a boot emulator to do all this, but it means you have to have a way of running your own code. The boot emulator basically runs a version of PIFrom that is hacked to skip the security checks, and you patch in whatever values you want (you can fake different CICs and regions this way)

The CIC seed is also used to checksum the bootcode in the first 4k of game ROM, and to also checksum the first 1MB transferred to make sure the cart interface is reliable.

[raylyd]

how about useing seb code switchless mod useing the reset buttion would be cool

[FritoFredrik]

Now i do not like that you need 5 switches (ore even more) to do this
so why not just make the 2 different PIF-NUS chips in like a little cartridge
that you can change out if you want to play a game from another region

Did this in google sketchup for fun::thumbsup: (just need a case for it)
http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp80/FritoFredrik/nus-cart.png

now will this work or did i do something really wrong?

[rso]

There seems to be a misunderstanding - You don't use separate switches for each one in the diagram, you only need a single one that switches five contacts at once.

Can't see why your idea shouldn't work though, but it'd be a helluva lot of very unnecessary work, and probably with pretty ugly-looking results imho.

[biscuit]

Two MC14551B ic's and 1 spdt switch then ?

[mca]

what about running ntsc game on a pal console using passport III. Will it be 60 hz?

[bart_simpson]

Why not a switchless mod via reset?

[wmj]

Here's a picture of the inside of my N64. I bought it already modded with the region switch from http://www.otakus-store.com/. They sell a lot of modded consoles and also do a lot of modifications so maybe they know how this mod was done. It works 100% for all games, even PAL Perfect Dark works perfectly.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u198/woutermj/N64%20collection/IMG_05421.jpg

[Ho-Oh.x7]

what about running ntsc game on a pal console using passport III. Will it be 60 hz?

As far as I'm aware the refresh rate is determined by software settings so NTSC games should run at 60 hz. If you load an NTSC game on a PAL console with an Everdrive or other backup device they run at 60hz. Some games will have audio errors because your using the wrong PIF chip.

[fireaza]

Here's a picture of the inside of my N64. I bought it already modded with the region switch from http://www.otakus-store.com/. They sell a lot of modded consoles and also do a lot of modifications so maybe they know how this mod was done. It works 100% for all games, even PAL Perfect Dark works perfectly.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u198/woutermj/N64%20collection/IMG_05421.jpg
Does the refresh rate change too? I'd be very interested to know how it was done if so!

[Bad_Ad84]

Why not a switchless mod via reset?

Region is set via a very complex method that isnt cracked (i.e. a replacement chip, like the supercic). You would need a way to give both types of PIF responses to the console. Which is why people are installing both chips.

Now you could install both chips, install some solid state switching and then control them via a switchless mod, but its no where near as simple as you are making it sound.

[marqs]

That looks a lot nicer than the mess inside my N64:

4238

[omp]

I asked this in another thread similar to this one.

What is the thought of installing the "key" from a game into the console permamently? IE disable the cart lines.

It would be similar/same as using one of those piggy back adaptor carts.

I was going to attempt this, I have both PAL and NTSC boards, but I was going to try and make one of the PAL boards region free.

Reading this makes me believe it is easier just to set up both types of consoles lol!

[Bad_Ad84]

There are different "keys" so some games wouldnt work.

There is only 2 locks - PAL and NTSC.