Jungle Safari for DC

[DeckardBR]

Right when the DC was cancelled, a port of the Jungle Safari arcade game was in the works along with an Ambulance game that sega had made. The game never came out but I'm curious if anyone knows how far along it was and if maybe a copy is floating around the internet somewhere.

[Yakumo]

Both where never in production. It was another one of those urban legends.

Yakumo

[diddydonn]

I played Jungle safari on a recent holiday to butlins, was a fun game to play, the cab was huge, looking like a jeep from the outside

[Segafreak_NL]

I came across Emergency Call Ambulance last December (for the first time since its release). A fun game as well.

I think Dreamcast magazine mentioned a 'real life simulator' pack including Brave FireFighters as well. (would've been nice with the gun). Not sure if they had it confirmed by SOE but I think they did.

[Anthaemia.]

The actual name of that proposed compilation was Real Life Career Series, which - according to Official Dreamcast Magazine and (presumably) Sega Europe's original statement - included Jambo! Safari, Emergency Call Ambulance and Brave Firefighters. While a line of code never passed through a Katana development system, plans were definitely made for this package to the point where Sega began promoting such a thing. However, since I've long parted with my ODM collection, I'm not sure who may have been responsible, though AM1 seems the most likely as they were behind the first two games in their original coin-op forms (or at least I think they were - confirmation would be welcome).

Anyway, there's not much information regarding the exact details behind why this promising set never happened, but I'll guess it was something to do with Brave Firefighters. See, the arcade version ran on the relatively new Hikaru board, an interim high-end upgrade of the NAOMI platform Sega was using before it completed the more permanent NAOMI 2. Because one key feature of this hardware was its ability to process realistic fire effects (in fact, it was created specifically for Brave Firefighters!) there's little doubt one part of this compendium may have been possible.

During the period Real Life Career Series was announced, AM2 revealed that its own preliminary research had concluded that Virtua Fighter 4 would need too many graphical compromises for a Dreamcast port to be worth producing. Therefore, could similar limitations have brought this idea to a similarly premature end? On the other hand, since the remaining two games were both Model 3 conversions surely we could have been treated to those as standalone items? Then again, wasn't the idea of a budget release due to none of the titles included being too "novelty" and therefore not worthy of separate status? I'd love to know more into the reasons why this one didn't happen...

[Grey Fox]

To be honest I think the reason they were touted as a three game pack was because none of them were good enough or had enough of a gameplay hook to be stand-alone games and would have been difficult to round out the packages with mini-games in a similar vein to what had happened with Crazy Taxi. also none of these titles was a huge hit or had a huge presence in Arcades. I played all three at the ATEI show in London and my abiding memory of Brave FireFighters was that it was all a bit dull (basically pointing a hose at a fire is less exciting than playing a Virtua Cop!) - having said that maybe this will get resurrected for Wii.........

Emergency Ambulance felt like a cut down Crazy Taxi with less freedom, action or fun. It seemed to have an interesting mechanic to do with the patients heart-rate - e.g. too many crashes etc set the pulse racing but again was very much a lesser game when compared to Sega's other big names.

Likewise Jambo Safari - interesting premise but it never really hooked gamers.

So the combination of not being huge names in the arcade fraternity (being very much "lessser" Sega games as it were), the stage of life the DC was in and the fact that Arcade ports weren't the draw they once were probably led to the idea of a Triple Pack to offer Value for Money.

Shame it never happened as more time to get familiar with the games would have been nice but don't think we missed out on too much to be honest.

I'd have liked to have seen decent conversions of Scud Race (obviously), Motor Raid GP (spruced up with DC graphics) and the Le Mans 24 game as all of these seemed to play well, Lost World even if they lost the licence and called it Dino Shooter or something, Daytona 2, SpikeOut/SlashOut Double Pack etc but then I guess if Sega had been working on these then we wouldn't have got some of the DC classics we got as they can only spread their developers so far.

[DeckardBR]

Thanks for the great replies. I had forgotten some of the other games to be included in that compilation. Makes me wonder if Planet Harrier was ever planned for DC as well. A shame Sega hasn't released any version of it to home consoles. Emulation of the rom would also take a few years at best from now too.

[Anthaemia.]

Even though Real Life Career Series failed to materialise on the Dreamcast, did you know a further three arcade games were released under this umbrella name? Due to the original's cancellation I'm not sure they would have formed a second volume, but for the record I seem to remember the included titles being Crazy Taxi, 18 Wheeler: American Pro Trucker and something called Airline Pilots that I've not heard of since - unless it's the precursor to F355 Challenge also using three NAOMI boards, which slipped under my radar... if you can excuse the awful pun! Of course, the other two did make it to various consoles (but only after receiving plenty of bonus content, as with the majority of NAOMI software). Anyway, the reason for Planet Harriers' absence was due to the same reason as that of Brave Firefighters. In other words, much like its NAOMI 2 successor the Hikaru board was simply too powerful for graphically accurate home conversions. Then again, wasn't this one rumoured for the GameCube at one point and does anyone know if this was a so-called "urban myth" as well?

[Yakumo]

Emergency Ambulance was pretty popular in Japan and a very good game. I loved it. however Jumbo Safari was poor. looked crap, and played like an after thought. If games such as 18 Wheeler and Crazy Taxi were made in to Dreamcast games then so could of Emergency Ambulance.

Yakumo

[Grey Fox]

In fairness Emergency Ambulance was the game I played least and I'm fully prepared to admit that I didn't give it enough of a go to find the intricacies of the game etc - I was just lumping it in with the other two. I think it most likely that these games were either never going to be released (eitherseparately or as a pack) or possibly more likely there was a chance of them being ported but then the Dreamcast situation meant it didn't happen.

[Barc0de]

jumbo safari kicked ass!

[DeckardBR]

I loved Jambo Sarari also. We had a local nickel arcade (2 bucks to enter, all games a nickel) and I would play it everytime I went there. I found it fun to try and catch and wrangle the animals, especially the harder angrier ones. The game was relatively short though. Sega really should come out with an arcade pack of all their Naomi 90s early 2000 era games for the 360 and PS 3 which should have no problem rendering any of them.

[GigaDrive]

off-topic mini rant:

Sometimes I wish SEGA had never made Dreamcast at all, but instead...
Made a 'MODEL 3 Step 3' arcade board & console system (ala NEO-GEO), using a newer PowerPC CPU + Lockheed Martin Real3D GPU + a range of different controllers. Software would be all their older & then-current MODEL 3 games for the home unit, plus they create new titles for both arcade & home, plus some exclusive home games not intended for arcades.
The MODEL 3 Step 3 unit would be significantly more powerful than MODEL 3 Step 1, Step 1.5, Step 2, Step 2.1 and serve in place of NAOMI, Hikaru, NAOMI 2, etc. It saves lots of development time & money that they'd otherwise spend converting MODEL 2 & MODEL 3 games over to a totally different architecture (Dreamcast), and the saved funds get put into creating new games.

[Yakumo]

Nice idea but the problem was that Model 3 was very expensive. There's no way they could have brought it to the home at an affordable price.

Yakumo

[Barc0de]

also, MODEL 3 used quads I think.

[Yakumo]

Ah, like our beloved Saturn :nod:

Yakumo

[GigaDrive]

Nice idea but the problem was that Model 3 was very expensive. There's no way they could have brought it to the home at an affordable price.

Yakumo


Sure MODEL 3 was very expensive in 1996. but by 1999 (and this is all purely theoretical) it would've been more than *possible* to bring out a greatly-shrunk down, mass-produced, faster MODEL 3-based console into the home. If NEC, Hitachi, IBM, etc manufactured the PowerPC 603e CPU and *a* Lockheed Real3D GPU. The twin Real3D/Pro-1000 GPUs could've been merged into a single 2 pixel pipeline GPU with geometry engine and additional rendering features that weren't part of the 1995/1996 specification.

Based on what did actually happen with Katana/Dreamcast-- Since Hitachi (SH4) & Videologic (PowerVR2DC) were able to achieve greater than MODEL 3 performance with a few sacrifices to quality, but in other areas, greater feature-set, for a small, small fraction of the cost, I don't think it would've been impossible to do a similar feat with technology directly related to MODEL 3.


Of course, it was never to be. Lockheed never learned or wanted to learn how to play ball in the consumer 3D market. They demanded high prices for their chips & boards which was faaar out of reach for the consumer market.
What a pity.

[Yakumo]

Nah, that's why Naomi was made. Even in 1999 the model 3 was still expensive compared to Naomi. I guess that's why the Dreamcast followed the Naomi rout rather than Model 3.

Yakumo

[Anthaemia.]

Sega didn't go with the PowerVR2 chipset in Dreamcast and NAOMI because of Lockheed's hesitance to produce a consumer version of its Real 3D technology, but more because of a favour Hayao Nakayama made with a golfing buddy - who just so happened to be a high ranking member of a company with connections to the final "Katana" design (as opposed to the US-developed "Dural" alternative)! If there was no way that Real 3D would ever make its way into a console, then how come Sega of America was collaborating with Lockheed Martin on a cartridge based upgrade for the Saturn that gave the platform capabilities worthy of comparison to Model 3 performance? If I remember correctly, this accelerator was codenamed Eclipse and only dropped because management within Sega had already started looking more to its Japanese divisions for guidance... or were they forced? Either way, the balance of power had shifted from the likes of Tom Kalinse and Bernie Stolar to Shoichiro Irimajiri and Isao Okawa by the time Dreamcast was on the way. Despite providing some incredibly powerful arcade solutions, any chance of Lockheed doing the same for Sega's home market was dashed almost overnight.

[GigaDrive]

Sega didn't go with the PowerVR2 chipset in Dreamcast and NAOMI because of Lockheed's hesitance to produce a consumer version of its Real 3D technology, but more because of a favour Hayao Nakayama made with a golfing buddy - who just so happened to be a high ranking member of a company with connections to the final "Katana" design (as opposed to the US-developed "Dural" alternative)!

Interesting, I didn't realize there was a personal connection. I knew that Japanese companies tend to favor deals with other Japanese companies, and that's always been one of the believed reasons why Sega went with the NEC-manufactured (Videologic designed) PowerVR2 over 3Dfx, but now its even more personal.



If there was no way that Real 3D would ever make its way into a console, then how come Sega of America was collaborating with Lockheed Martin on a cartridge based upgrade for the Saturn that gave the platform capabilities worthy of comparison to Model 3 performance?



I shouldn't have said or implied "no way". I should've said Lockheed tended to not be favorable toward the consumer market with pricing of its Real3D chips. Ultimately, Sega & Lockheed Real3D never reached a deal for a consumer game system, be it upgrade for Saturn or a new system.

Yes, Sega and Lockheed Real3D did apparently work together, to some extent, on a Real3D-based (or Real3D + PowerPC) upgrade for Saturn. Even in the best-case senareo (Real3D/100) It would not have been as powerful as MODEL 3, but the graphic quality would be very much similar to MODEL 3, with fewer polygons, around half. Real3D/100 in any setting (upgrade, console, PC card, workstation, arcade board, whatever) would've been capable of handling scaled down MODEL 3 games and scaled up MODEL 2 games.

Real3D/100 was more powerful than MODEL 2 which used older, pre-Real3D technology from the same group of engineers/technology base when it was Martin Marietta.
The MODEL 3 board used two Real3D/Pro-1000s, so there's no way the Saturn upgrade, in any case, would have equaled MODEL 3 performance, even with Real3D/100.

However, there's also a possibility that Real3D/100 was too expensive, being that it was 3 chips thus basicly a complete graphics subsystem, thus Real3D/100 was more than just another 3D accelerator. It may have been that Sega & partners had actually built the Saturn upgrade around merely a consumer 3D accelerator ( not a complete GPU which Real3D/100 was if you look at its three chips as one) such as 3Dfx Voodoo1, PowerVR PCX1 or Real3D i740. In which case, the performance would've been closer to that of Nintendo 64 or 3DO M2, and not even half way to MODEL 3 which is what Real3D/100 would've provided. A lower-end upgrade with a cheap 3D accelerator would've allowed modified (and not perfect much less upgraded) MODEL 2 games and greatly scaled down MODEL 3 games to be made for Saturn but certainly not as well as a Real3D/100. It is actually more likely that Sega had made the Saturn upgrade with lower-end Real3D tech, or 3Dfx Voodoo or PowerVR PCX1, than a high-end upgrade with Real3D/100, which is what I would've wanted, and for awhile believed was happening based on the 3-page Next-Generation article from Nov 1995.



If I remember correctly, this accelerator was codenamed Eclipse and only dropped because management within Sega had already started looking more to its Japanese divisions for guidance... or were they forced? Either way, the balance of power had shifted from the likes of Tom Kalinse and Bernie Stolar to Shoichiro Irimajiri and Isao Okawa by the time Dreamcast was on the way. Despite providing some incredibly powerful arcade solutions, any chance of Lockheed doing the same for Sega's home market was dashed almost overnight.

Eclipse represents any of the real or rumored Saturn upgrades that were in development (before the more powerful BlackBelt/Dural/Katana/Dreamcast) and Sega looked at any & all 3D chips during 1995-1997, including

1995-1996:
Nvidia NV1 (terrible, awful)
Real3D/100 (very very exellent but sadly probably out of reach)
1996-1997:
PixelSquirt (unknown),
PowerVR PCX1, PCX2 (decent)
3Dfx Voodoo1 Graphics (decent)
Real3D i740 (decent)
3Dfx Banshee (decent)


Yes, Sega's direction changed/shifted and any chance of a Lockheed Real3D based home game system from Sega was gone by mid-1997 when the PowerVR2-based Katana was approved.

[Anthaemia.]

If the power of Eclipse really was comparable to half Model 3's performance levels and presuming that I've done my research correctly, then doesn't that mean we as gamers would have been playing cartridge-enhanced Saturn titles featuring approximately 500K polygons a second? Considering this is the very figure Sega used in its own white paper as the console's theoretical output as a stock platform, was there any point developing an accelerator device? I know that very few - if any - software ever came close to reaching this quality of graphics, yet at the same time a lot of programmers (mostly within Sega's own Japanese departments, it should be noted) were not only coming close but EXCEEDING what the Eclipse may have brought to the proverbial table. Based on that particular argument, it's little surprise the US-designed upgrade never saw the light of day...

[saturn_worship]

I recently became to the REAL conclussion about the saturn upgrade.

It's name was

YU SUKUZI

that upgrade made things like shenmue saturn, making psx seem like nintendo nes.

yes i'm a fanboy, but suzuki-sama is god programming

[Anthaemia.]

Yu Suzuki has confirmed in the past that Sega of Japan had no involvement with the Eclipse project, which came out of a collaboration with the US-based Away Team and Lockheed Martin. AM2 revealed that its 32-bit Shenmue prototype and Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 were being developed using stock hardware, so it's fair to say the upgrade was not part of the equation when you consider how incredible these games looked. However, because the latter has yet to be seen in public we can only speculate as to its quality. Then again, considering how much pride he appeared to take in the conversion and the amount of time invested in it (while Genki took over the Dreamcast treatment), I'm sure it wouldn't have been a disappointment.

Also, why is Yu Suzuki held in such high regard with so-called Sega fanboys? Yes, he was responsible for producing the better "SuperScaler" titles and creating the main vision for Shenmue, not to mention all his "Virtua" games. Still, by the Saturn era his programming skills were becoming less and less prominent within AM2. If there's a genuinely unsung hero of the team, it's Keiji Okayasu - the coder responsible for Saturn conversions of Daytona USA, the first two Virtua Fighters and (supposedly) the third as well, not to mention significant portions of the original Shenmue engine (once again, this is unconfirmed... but highly likely) plus many other notable examples I can't list here in full. Some of his earlier Saturn work could have benefitted from a little extra polish, but you can't argue it was he and not Suzuki that really made a case for the system as the powerhouse Sony desperately wanted consumers to believe it wasn't capable of being. Only the programming talents of Travellers Tales, Team Andromeda, Sonic Team, Lobotomy Software or perhaps even Treasure compare in my opinion...

[Stone]

something called Airline Pilots that I've not heard of since - unless it's the precursor to F355 Challenge also using three NAOMI boards, which slipped under my radar... if you can excuse the awful pun!
I've played the Airline Pilots one - it's in a massive cabinet housing three 21" displays, with a NAOMI for each one and 'lifelike' controls.

It's pretty rubbish, to be honest ;) There's one on Brighton Pier.

Stone

[Anthaemia.]

I remember that one now - thanks for jogging my memory! I was right to assume this is the precursor to F355 that also boasted a full control system with a separate NAOMI board for each of its three screens. I would have tested this one years back when I first (and briefly) saw it at an arcade while on holiday, but how could I resist the more tempting F355, not to mention having great versus matches on Virtua Striker Ver. 2000 as well? That was the summer before I started at university, and it's just as fresh in my mind as yesterday... with the exception of details relating to Airline Pilots, of course!

[saturn_worship]

well, it's clear suzuki maybe wouldn't write a single code line for any saturn game, but i'm pretty sure the way to work with the saturn architecture and the work for the shenmue and virtua fighter 3 engine was done by him.

99%

anyways, of course there were a lot of saturn talented programming demigods

[Anthaemia.]

Since he was quoted as suggesting that only one in every hundred programmers would be able to fully utilise the Saturn's multi-processor architecture, maybe Yu Suzuki did have knowledge of coding for the system after all? Then again, Suzuki later confirmed that he was taking full responsibility for the supervision of converting Virtua Fighter 3 following extensive research into whether such a game could be reproduced to his satisfaction on the console. I'm sure he may have some experience of Saturn programming, but in terms of any significant commercial work I doubt such code exists as by this point Yu Suzuki was already being worshipped as opposed to treated like fellow colleagues within Sega.

I know that Yuji Naka was more actively involved in Sonic Team projects before his own departure, though in terms of so-called "programming demigods" who actually did something of importance Ezra Dreisbach of Lobotomy Software is the only example that immediately springs to my mind - how many people can you think of who can push hardware more than legends such as John Carmack? From what I've been able to find out, not even the id super-coder was up to getting Quake running on Saturn. If this console was so programmer-unfriendly, why did a small group of Lobotomy's calibre manage so well? Could they have been the one-in-a-hundred Yu Suzuki spoke of, or perhaps the real answer lies with determination and a resistance to just pump out more second-rate trash as with the majority of third party developers whose greatest ambition revolved around the phrase "quick, unoptimised, single chip port from PlayStation designed for maximum profit with minimal efforts?"

[Barc0de]

you are underestimating the Playstation. Profits it made, but it was a fairly good machine in its own right.

[saturn_worship]

that's true Anthaemia.

Talking of other things, i must tell that i will be always impressed by the quantity of guts the am2 guys got to do something like shenmue on the saturn.

It wasn't only the graphical thing, but it was the importance of the project, they just spent 2/3 years on something that would see the light on a deadly-wounded in u.s.a console..

guts people, guts

[Anthaemia.]

Based on the development timeline I've put together, would Shenmue have even been remotely close to being ready for a release by the end of 1998? Had they not decided to switch development in favour of a graphically-improved Dreamcast version, can you seriously imagine Sega backing a Saturn title that late in the game (no pun intended)? As with the cancelled Virtua Fighter 3, a project of such ambition was guaranteed limited support in Japan. However, there's little chance we'd have been treated overseas to such a potential classic, regardless of who produced it. Maybe the wait proved a good thing after all? Then again, that's not to say I'd miss out should a 32-bit prototype build ever surface!

On the subject of AM2's non-Japanese releases, does anyone else here know more about the rumour that Fighters Megamix was almost rejected in the US due to nearly failing Bernie Stolar's infamous "five star" policy? I know he personally objected to certain hidden features (the scantily-clad Candy/Honey render, for example), with the game only coming out there following certain minor alterations. Well, if there's any truth could Yu Suzuki have been put off the idea of subjecting further titles for approval in that particular market resulting from such interference with his position as lead creative? Even if a completed Saturn version did exist, gamers would have been forced to wait a few months at least for the obligatory English translation (and dubbed voice-overs, assuming speech wasn't just added following the Dreamcast overhaul). Regardless of technical brilliance, sheer scale and whose vision it was, can you honestly picture the Saturn having enough of a market share in 1999 to do Shenmue justice? If only Sega had put back their next generation plans a little while more...

[GigaDrive]

If the power of Eclipse really was comparable to half Model 3's performance levels and presuming that I've done my research correctly, then doesn't that mean we as gamers would have been playing cartridge-enhanced Saturn titles featuring approximately 500K polygons a second? Considering this is the very figure Sega used in its own white paper as the console's theoretical output as a stock platform, was there any point developing an accelerator device? I know that very few - if any - software ever came close to reaching this quality of graphics, yet at the same time a lot of programmers (mostly within Sega's own Japanese departments, it should be noted) were not only coming close but EXCEEDING what the Eclipse may have brought to the proverbial table. Based on that particular argument, it's little surprise the US-designed upgrade never saw the light of day...

As I said, Eclipse represented basicly any 3D upgrade for Saturn, rumored or real. Anywhere from a small fraction of MODEL 3 performance (
3Dfx Voodoo1, 3DO M2, PowerVR PCX1 / PCX2,
Intel/Lockheed Real3D i740, PixelSquirt)
upto around half of MODEL 3 (Lockheed Real3D/100) .

But Saturn on its own was nowhere near MODEL 2 performance, let alone, half MODEL 3. There is no way that Sega of Japan's best efforts on the Saturn were close to what even a low-end Eclipse could have done in terms of non-faked polygons, amount of polygons, image rendering quality, etc.

I suppose the only chip that would have been pointless thus not much better than stock Saturn, was the Nvidia NV2 chip. Any other decent 3D accelerator would've allowed much better MODEL 2 translations than what Saturn ever did on its own.


MODEL 2:
300k texture-mapped polygons/s

MODEL 3:
polygon calculation capability (from geometrizer): 60 million verts/sec.
Rendered to the screen with every single rendering feature/effect on:
1M four-sided square polygons/s or 2M triangles/s

Concidering 3Dfx Voodoo1 and 3DO M2 (both 300k to 500k triangles/s) were not half MODEL 3 performance in the real world, how could Saturn be since Saturn wasn't close to Voodoo1 or 3DO M2 ? :)


Sega's figures of 500,000 texture mapped and 200,000 textured mapped + gouraud shaded polygons/s are pure fantasy and make Saturn sound alot closer to MODEL 2 than it really was. Saturn could never render even proper triangle polygons and thus, couldn't handle perfect ports of MODEL 1 games. As we saw with Sega's completely re-written, downgraded translations of MODEL 2 games, the Saturn was very poor at doing proper 3D graphics. Everything had to be reengieered. Even the outstanding effort in VF2 looked very flat, with far fewer polygons in the character models and none in the backgrounds compared to the MODEL 2 arcade. I know I am being very hard on Saturn's 3D capabilities, but, they were what they were. I have a different view on Saturn's 3D games. Some were impressive concidering the machine was not ever really built for 3D.

Although I could be wrong, from my understanding from what I've read over the years, a lot of the things Sega AM developers did were amazing software tricks using Saturn's immense 2D graphics capabilities to 'fake' a real 3D graphics engine.

[Martin]

Sounds like you're forgetting that add-ons suck.

SEGA should have waited until 2000 or 2001 and brought out the Dreamcast. It came too early. I just spent loads of money on the damn thing as I prefer it to my 360 for many reasons.

Lovely machine.

[ServiceGames]

How the hell did this turn into a thread about theoretical console development and Sega Saturn codeing?? Oh the stretches some people will go through to hijack a thread.

Anyway I for one would just love to play either Emergency call Ambulance Brave Firefighters or Jambo! Safari on any home console. *crosses fingers for Wii bundle*

[Barc0de]

I second that ServiceGames. I miss those games:(

[saturn_worship]

Gigadrive:

"I know I am being very hard on Saturn's 3D capabilities, but, they were what they were. I have a different view on Saturn's 3D games. Some were impressive concidering the machine was not ever really built for 3D.
"

I half agree with that, first of all, we have to think that saturn doesn't work with triangles, and works with quads, the option that the industry finally took back in the days for 3D, but that doesn't mean quads aren't good for 3D development.

Well, Saturn was a really powerful 2D machine, but also 3D, the thing is that mostly only SEGA knew how to do great 3D games on the Saturn.

Just think this for a moment, Saturn got a REALLY complicated architecture, and was rushed into market with almost no decent development tools, that made most 3rd part developers look to other side, and considering the dumb situation within SEGA in those days, work for that console was very hard.

No other console of those days was capable of doing perfect MODEL 2 games, a perfect port of VF2 on Psx or N64 sounds utopic.

Anyways, i really agree that Sega would have some upgrade down his hand, but release it under the approval of SOJ was another thing..

Antaemia:

If 3rd party development and saturn sales weren't so poor, i'm sure vf3, shenmue and sonic adventure would have been released on saturn, yet a blue stinger - deep fear 2 mostly also :)

[Anthaemia.]

The last wave of PAL games were all first party, but over in Japan the Saturn was still doing quite well. I remember following the many import-only titles in SSM, knowing that we'd never get the chance to play them officially here. Capcom were probably Sega's biggest supporter, and I know they were planning further releases after Final Fight Revenge. Combined with in-house efforts such as Virtua Fighter 3, Shenmue or Sonic Adventure, how amazing would the likes of Marvel VS Capcom, Red Earth and Street Fighter III have been, even if they were restricted to players with the hindsight to modify their consoles? However, what's this about Blue Stinger and a sequel to Deep Fear on the Saturn? Were these actually going to happen, or did you just make these up as further examples of what we may have missed out on? I've especially never heard of the former existing in a 32-bit form, though I know Warp briefly toyed with the idea of making D2 a Saturn project. Anyway, if support had been this great for the Saturn it's unlikely so many brilliant games would not be available outside Japan. If only Sega had waited another year before launching the Dreamcast with a totally fresh line-up of software, instead of generously "borrowing" from a range that wasn't completely outside the Saturn's capabilities had programmers taken delivery of more powerful development tools. Based on the progression from early games to later efforts such as Panzer Dragoon Saga and Burning Rangers, how better could Saturn graphics have become? I guess we'll never find out now... apart from by taking a quick look at the Shenmue prototype footage, of course!

[Yakumo]

Have you ever seen Croc on the Saturn? That game is a fully solid 3D platformer. While it may not be a great game it sure puts many 3D playstation stuff to shame mainly because it doesn't suffer from that horrid playstation paper thin looking polygons with bendy warped textures. It really is one solid looking game. It will be featured on the next Retro Core that will be released on August 10th.

Yakumo

[saturn_worship]

I don't know how playable was, but i still want to see psx do a thing like sonic x-treme ofer alon engine, if the gameplay was as smooth as in the e3 playable "ehem" video, well, that would have kicked ass.

saturn 3d skills are more than proved with actual playable games, no need to go to shenmue / vf3 etc ..

burning rangers (soul reaver? anyone?) .. panzer dragoon saga, vf2, sega rally, nights, etcetcetc

and i agree with yakumo about croc, and would add sonic jam , because the 3d world there simply kicks ass, and is one of the more solid platform 32 bits thing i have ever seen

well, the face of some n64 and psx old fanboys when they saw the saturn shenmue video also was solid.

ROCK SOLID. ^^

besides that, sega, without knowing it and with their faults, got a really powerful console, very strong 2D and with really strong 3D capabilities in the good hands.

oh, and we got silver head!!!

[Anthaemia.]

Virtua Fighter 2 has a lower polygon count than its predecessor, yet most people continue to knock the original - what gives in this example? Sega Rally was definitely a much better example of good Saturn programming compared to VF2, but NiGHTS and particularly Burning Rangers are criticised for polygon glitching. Despite being one of the first games to show off "real" transparencies in fully 3D environments, the latter is seen more for its flaws than incredible graphics. Once again, I have to ask why? Some people obviously can't appreciate the efforts many - including Sonic Team - were putting into their Saturn games because of a few minor faults, which I'm sure weren't outside the console's limitations had developers been given more time and superior coding tools. Along with Croc, may I suggest we add Sonic R to our growing list of notable examples? How about Scorcher as well?

Panzer Dragoon Saga is tougher for me to describe, since it's not always consistent with its visuals. Actually, why do I get the feeling PDS is the closest released game comparable to what AM2 planned to achieve with the Shenmue prototype? While there are some genuinely jaw-dropping moments in PDS, it's not exactly the best example for awesome graphics throughout. Could the single video of Shenmue have been edited to hide any less-than-incredible sections, or was this game always pushing its host console with such fantastic results? Even though it came from a period when AM2 had learned many techniques in Saturn programming, I seriously doubt the end product was that good all throughout.

Of course, it's possible that I may be wrong and Shenmue actually had BETTER parts that Yu Suzuki and his team wanted to keep a secret for unknown reasons. I can only speculate, and since this is AM2 we're discussing there's a very good chance we may be in for a surprise if this one ever surfaces. As for VF3, that's another thing entirely - for all we know it could be a major disappointment, but with all the secrecy I've a very good feeling AM2 was preparing a one-two with this and Shenmue, perhaps even joining up with Sonic Team's planned Sonic World to give Saturn owners a couple of late treats before Sega moved its focus to Dreamcast preparation. Considering the faces on many Sony/Nintendo fanboys when they first saw the Shenmue footage, I'd say we really missed out...

[saturn_worship]

eidos also managed pretty good with tomb raider, fighting force (saturn version) with doesn't seem the crappy psx unstable one, and ninja, wich i will discuss in my next post here, because there are clearly 2 stages of that game in development.

the first one and reviewed in sega saturn magazine firstly, and the second, and more appearing to the final result of the psx version, shown in the sega propaganda

[Anthaemia.]

Do you have more information regarding the cancelled Saturn version of Ninja? I can't wait, providing this is what you were hinting at! Anyway, Core Design is known for scrapping all plans for Ninja on the Saturn, but in reality it shelved both this and the PlayStation edition simultaneously because of quality issues. While the former was only briefly restarted due to Core's imminent dropping out of the Saturn market, the latter was fully remade in a similar fashion to what Capcom did with the Biohazard 1.5 prototype. I've not seen much of the original Ninja apart from a few screenshots here and there, but there's little doubt just how much of a letdown the final game was - whether or not Core made a mistake in rebooting its development remains to be seen, though I'm not really holding my breath either way should any new details about the later Saturn build surface. Ninja was never Core's finest moment in the 32-bit era, which I believe was indeed the original Tomb Raider... even with its occasional polygonal glitching!

[GigaDrive]

This is the article that really got my hopes up, Next Generation magazine November 1995 on the Saturn 2.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3985/saturn2lmc1crop983x9806js.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saturn2lmc1crop983x9806js.jpg)http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/258/saturn2lmc2crop1033x13522rk.th.jpg (http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saturn2lmc2crop1033x13522rk.jpg)http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/6834/saturn2lmc3crop1063x14140sq.th.jpg (http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saturn2lmc3crop1063x14140sq.jpg)

It would've been either the best-possible 3D upgrade for Saturn, or, a replacement in the form of a new console for the 1996-1997 timeframe. Much like the 3DO M2 upgrade for the original machine, that turned out to be a standalone console (unreleased).

As I've said before, a R3D/100 + PowerPC based Saturn 2 in 1996 or 1997 would've carried Sega through to 2000 or 2001. The Dreamcast in the form that it existed, would not be needed in 1998-1999, because Saturn 2 would be in the middle of its lifespan at end of the 90s. Depending on the success of Saturn 2, the following generation would not need to be out so soon. Sega could then take its time to develop either Saturn 3, or, partner with Microsoft on Xbox to make Xbox a stronger force against PS2.

It makes me sad thinking of all the options Sega had, and if only Lockheed had realized the importance of the consumer market after the cold war was effectively over.

[Segafreak_NL]

Guys can we please get back OT. Every topic turning into a VF3/Ninja/Saturn upgrade discussion gets a bit old.

[saturn_worship]

that's true SegaFreak_NL..

gigadrive: that article rules.

[GigaDrive]

I would've bought Jungle Safari for Dreamcast even if it was the sole game without the other two. Then again the other two would've made a sweet collection.

[smf]

Since he was quoted as suggesting that only one in every hundred programmers would be able to fully utilise the Saturn's multi-processor architecture, maybe Yu Suzuki did have knowledge of coding for the system after all? Then again, Suzuki later confirmed that he was taking full responsibility for the supervision of converting Virtua Fighter 3 following extensive research into whether such a game could be reproduced to his satisfaction on the console.

Unless you've ever worked for a manager who takes all the credit, you don't realise that when people make comments like that they aren't necessarily talking about themselves.

We = not me
I = someone else helped me.

I'm not saying he didn't single handly write everything in assembler, but taking responsibility after researching could just as easily mean he looked over everyone elses research and decided to do it.

[Anthaemia.]

Based on his familiarity with hardware programming in the "SuperScaler" coin-op era, I'm certain that Yu Suzuki would have at least known Saturn coding at some level. However, you're probably right to assume his taking responsibility was the conclusion of supervising research by lower AM2 members and not any personal work. If there's anybody within the group who deserved the credit for pushing Sega's 32-bit console, it's Keiji Okayasu. While the conversions of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA were a little flawed, by VF2 his skills as lead programmer were really putting AM2 on the proverbial map in terms of Saturn developers. I've not been able to find any definitive information on the subject, but it seems as if Okayasu was choosing to remain more behind the scenes by the time his boss suggested VF3 would be heading to the platform. My best guess is that he didn't want - or simply wasn't ready - to be regarded in the same high esteem as the likes or Yu Suzuki or Yuji Naka. Therefore, he decided to keep his head down and continue pushing the Saturn harder than ever before, culminating in the engine for VF3 and the fighting sections of Shenmue. With cross-pollination of their best ideas, AM2 then put together a remarkable prototype of Shenmue, though I don't really need to go into that here (yes, for once I'm trying to keep this as on-topic as possible)! If only more people within the industry were prepared to abandon their egos and just get on with pushing the boundaries, but instead most these days are more interested in raising their own profile... when you have great work to show for your efforts, what true genius ever needs publicity?

[Martin]

*snip*

when are you making your website with all your knowledge on it? :dance:

[Yakumo]

when are you making your website with all your knowledge on it? :dance:He did used to have his own website that looked like the British Sega Saturn Magazine.

Yakumo

[Barc0de]

www.vf3saturnrants.com?:P

[Taucias]

Suzuki ran the website over in his Ferrarri and Akira got out and beat it to death with his bare hands!

[Martin]

He did used to have his own website that looked like the British Sega Saturn Magazine.

Yakumo

That was him? Wow, I used to go there. Weird how things come around. Though, I guess there aren't that many website-making-talking-about-SEGA-all-day guys around.

[Anthaemia.]

I really do hate bringing this further off-topic, but yes I was indeed responsible for a Saturn website back in the day. That actually started off life as the result of my college multimedia project, which I created with a group of friends. After completing the initial course, we decided to keep our site going with each person in charge of their own section dedicated to a specialist console. Naturally my department was focused on Saturn era games, particularly any failing to see the proverbial light of day. When the host pulled out, I chose to keep my part running as a separate entity, soon launching the standalone Sega Saturn Website (or "SSW" for short) with the intention of designing a spiritual online successor to SSM, so thanks for noting the link - my hard work in that area clearly paid off! This early version of my ultimate vision didn't last forever, and after a while I was left no choice but to pull the plug when the new host went down. Fortunately the last update was backed up, so if I really wanted you could see a return any day. Of course, I'd rather move forward. Besides, I've learned quite a lot since then, with the already comprehensive (and obligatory!) Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 article requiring major updates before I'd be fully satisfied. Over the last few months I've been toying more and more with the idea of putting together a fanzine in the style of SSM. In fact, the majority of layout and design work has been complete for what seems like ages - no pun intended. Whether or not this will ever see the light of day is unknown for now, as I'm quite busy elsewhere in the real world and don't really want to be making any promises. If this was to be taken further, one thing I can promise is that I'd make plenty of room for MegaDrive and Dreamcast coverage, not to mention the coin-operated side of things SSM also did a great job following! Maybe the first issue will be launched to co-incide with the release of Duke Nukem Forever? On the other hand, what greater occasion could there be for yours truly other than Saturn VF3 or maybe even the Shenmue prototype being leaked? Yeah, right...

P.S. For the record, my old site can now be found at http://web.archive.org/web/20030623234346/www.teamsega.co.uk/saturn/ if there's anybody here brave enough to check earlier VF3 rants!

[GigaDrive]

guilty of pulling this thread off-topic even more.

I truly believe that VF3 was impossible to do on the stock Saturn, even going by Shenmue. Otherwise YZ would've got it out there. Sure, a game with VF3's name could've been made on Saturn, like there was a VF2 made for Genesis. and AfterBurner made for the Master Syste,. but not only are these games not close to arcade perfect, they're not even remotely the same game experience (AB on SMS, VF2 on Gen).

It's like asking the PS1 to do an Xbox game.


Sega's best AM coders had a tough enough time massively downgrading MODEL2 games for Saturn, and MODEL 3 was like 10x more powerful in polygons plus it had more rendering features.

If Saturn was a Hyundai, MODEL 2 was a Corvette and MODEL 3 was a Ferrarri. IIRC, in Next Generation magazine before MODEL 3 came out, the comparison between MODEL 2 and Saturn was Hyundai vs Ferrarri :)

Even if VF3 was ported over to 3Dfx Voodoo1, PowerVR PCX1,PCX2, 3DO M2 those 3D archotectures had, in real world performance, 1/5 or less of MODEL3 performance. The stock Saturn's polygon figures 500,000 flat, 200,000 textured, g-shaded was a massive over exagguration of power, and I believe if anything that was what the calculation ability was, not the true rendering/drawing power which is what counts. The PS1 had all kinds of high polygon figures:
1.5 million lines/s <--GTE calculation
500,000 per sec <-- GTE calculation
360,000 per sec <--- drawn to the screen, flat shaded
180,000 per sec <----- drawn to the screen, textured, lit, g-shaded

[Anthaemia.]

Even with all the greatest programming tools available, Yu Suzuki and his team could never have reproduced Virtua Fighter 3 pixel-for-pixel on the Saturn then or now - perhaps never. However, that's not the point, because the fact is AM2 got this one up and running on the console twice, only for management to reject their work in favour of a Dreamcast conversion. Had they not been so determined to get their work approved on a console Sega was already phasing out, AM2 could have better supervised (or perhaps fully taken over) Genki's role in VF3tb, which let down so many supporters of the series. Nobody expected perfection from Saturn VF3, though it would still be great to see just what AM2 had achieved. After all, the Shenmue prototype can't have been the only late-era Saturn game to have incredible graphics... Burning Rangers, Shining Force III or Panzer Dragoon Saga, anyone?

[GigaDrive]

Even with all the greatest programming tools available, Yu Suzuki and his team could never have reproduced Virtua Fighter 3 pixel-for-pixel on the Saturn then or now - perhaps never.


True, I agree. Also, with Saturn and the programming tools available, they could not have reproduced any of the MODEL 2 games (Daytona, VF2, Sega Rally, HOTD, VC2, LB etc) pixel-for-pixel.



However, that's not the point, because the fact is AM2 got this one up and running on the console twice, only for management to reject their work in favour of a Dreamcast conversion. Had they not been so determined to get their work approved on a console Sega was already phasing out, AM2 could have better supervised (or perhaps fully taken over) Genki's role in VF3tb, which let down so many supporters of the series. Nobody expected perfection from Saturn VF3, though it would still be great to see just what AM2 had achieved. After all, the Shenmue prototype can't have been the only late-era Saturn game to have incredible graphics... Burning Rangers, Shining Force III or Panzer Dragoon Saga, anyone?

It certainly would've been interesting to see any & all Saturn adaptions of VF3, both versions that used a stock Saturn and the mythical one that used some 3D accelerator. I would've also wanted to see a 100% identical port of VF3 & VF3tb on Sega's successor to Saturn, be that Dreamcast or whatever they'd have come up with had things been different.

[Anthaemia.]

It certainly would've been interesting to see any & all Saturn adaptions of VF3, both versions that used a stock Saturn and the mythical one that used some 3D accelerator.

The only known cartridge upgrade for Saturn was the US-developed Eclipse project, which AM2 had no prior knowledge of. In other words, there was never a third version of Virtua Fighter 3 for the console that used such a hardware accelerator because the development team behind this game didn't know such a thing existed. Besides, even if they were aware of Eclipse the most likely event would have been that Yu Suzuki's team were ordered to keep away by management who always preferred Japanese technology anyway. Did those responsible for the American design pitch for a Saturn follow-up seriously believe their idea would be approved over their Japanese counterparts' concept, regardless of whether it was the better system performance-wise or not? Come on, this is SEGA we're talking about here! Political in-fighting has caused so many wrong decisions in the past (if you hadn't already noticed yet), though I must admit to being intrigued by the mere idea of what VF3 may have been like with the power of a stock console - impressive enough in the right hands, based on the Shenmue footage and other certain later Saturn titles - plus any further processing capabilties that an upgrade would provide...

[DeckardBR]

Jambo Safari to be released this winter for the WII!

http://kotaku.com/5262911/sega-finally-brings-jambo-safari-home

[Yakumo]

Why,oh why :( It's not a good looking game even by Dreamcast standards from what I remember seeing in the arcades. That Ambulance game on the other hand was great!

yakumo

[VMS]

And for the DS :nod:

[ASSEMbler]

Jambo Safari to be released this winter for the WII!

http://kotaku.com/5262911/sega-finally-brings-jambo-safari-home

OH FUCK YES I love this game!

[Morden]

Keep 'em coming, Sega. It's beyond me why they still haven't released Virtua Cop 3. I mean, they did release Ghost Squad! Come on! What the hell? Sega should really get to work and convert more of their arcade big ones.

P.S. - Missed out on all the Model 3 and VF3 talk! Damnit! If I were to choose the best arcade board ever made, Model 3 would be it, and I wouldn't even think about it. I also hate Genki so much for screwing up the VF3 port. And I hate those, who half-assed the PS2 VF2 port. You know who you are. And since I'm spreading some hate, I also hate Newell and his Steam.

[Barc0de]

I just wet my boxers, Jumbo Safari rocked and it's about gadamn time to see an arcade-worthy version of SEGA RALLY 2 emulated on the PS3 (since I can use my G25 and slam the gears in place like back in the day)

[Martin]

I loved Virtua Cop 3

[Barc0de]

Here's to hoping you had condoms with you