64DD questions?Just ask!

[Barc0de]

I m happy to reply to every and any DD related question you may submit. Feel free to shoot!

and of course, any detailed technical information can be provided by Kammedo, at his own discretion, in private ;) Don't bug him though unless you're up to something serious and have the background to understand the info, he's a busy lad!

[kammedo]

I m happy to reply to every and any DD related question you may submit. Feel free to shoot!

Note : except all of the following :

*What does DD stand for?
*What system was it meant for?
*Where can I get some of that?

;)

[babu]

Note : except all of the following :

*What does DD stand for?
*What system was it meant for?
*Where can I get some of that?

;)

So what's wrong with mine? :110:

[Barc0de]

What are the symptoms of your 64DD machine babu?

[babu]

Don't have the error code here right now, but kammedo might have them?

[the_steadster]

I have a very important question:

Will you send me one for free?

[kammedo]

Don't have the error code here right now, but kammedo might have them?

Hm. If I dont remember wrong, it should be some kind of internal Drive error - perhaps one of those :

LEO_SENSE_UNRECOVERED_READ_ERROR
LEO_SENSE_COMMAND_PHASE_ERROR
LEO_SENSE_DIAGNOSTIC_FAILURE

[sega_naomi]

what does it do , I never seen or played one ,

like let say F-zero you had the same game for n64 ,

does it mean on the DD it had superior graphics??

or something special?

[Barc0de]

The DD is what it's called. A Disk Drive. It also provided a built-in WaveTable and FontTable for games to take advantage of.

It was originally planned as an alternative manner for storing games since gamepaks (cartridges) were expensive and limited in space.

F-zero Xpansion kit allows the user to creater their own tracks thanks to an elaborate and accurate track editor - the N64 mouse can be used.

The original soundtrack of F-zero X was in mono.

The DD add-on featured stereo versions of the same tracks as well as some new tracks.

It features the Edit cup, comprised of user-created levels as well as two very hard Cups DD1 and DD2, where the Big Foot can be found.

The music track of Rainbow Road in the standard Joker Cup also changes to a re-arranged guitar version of Mariokart 64's Rainbow Road track.

It also included a limited machine editor - the GX version being much more detailed and logical.

The DD titles that were released did not provide evidence of better graphics - that said, since the Expansion Pak was originally intended to be only released with the DD (later released on its own thanks to pressure from Iguana and Factor 5) it is assumed that thanks to the expansion pak better resolutions and more detailed textures were viable - proven in titles that supported the Pak later on.

The DD in general could operate by its own thanks to the GUI of the DDROM and real-time clock, with nothing inserted in either Deck or DD.

Games with so called DD-hooks could support expansions and add-ons , similar to F-zero X.

Stand-alone DD titles such as the Artist series also supported other peripherals that plugged in the top slot, including the Capture Cart and the Modem Cart.

Technically the DD shared a common communication bus with the rest of the N64, known as PI - hence the applications that supported both a gamepak and a DD stream should interchange and manage the streams of data (evidently through interrupt requests). The IPL/DDROM provided an automatic optimization for this process.

[Jimmy130]

you said: 64DD questions?Just ask!

my question:
Why F-Zero X (usa) doesn't boot with N64 (ntsc) + 64DD and Expansion Pak?
or
Why Zelda OOT (usa) doesn't boot at all with N64 (ntsc) + 64DD?

[Barc0de]

CIC and region must match.

the DD is also region-coded. This stands true for both your examples, regardless of the point where they hang (the hanging point differs because of the different time in which they decide to access the DD and enquire it)

Region is visible in the N64 deck, so keep that in mind.

[andoba]

There is something new regarding to Ocarina of Time and the Disk Drive?

[Jimmy130]

CIC and region must match.

Are you sure?
Because Mario Party PAL + PAL N64 + 64DD detects wrong disk. The access lamp blinks normally and the game can diplays error 44 if you don't put Expansion Pak.

[Barc0de]

it is normal that a DD enabled game reacts to the presence of a DD.

If the DD is of another region, or the inserted disk is not the one it should be, some effects should be manifested in the form of errors or more severe errors that hang the system

[Barc0de]

Are you sure?
Because Mario Party PAL + PAL N64 + 64DD detects wrong disk. The access lamp blinks normally and the game can diplays error 44 if you don't put Expansion Pak.
Yes, but there you said "ZELDA+DD+PAL N64,"-without an expansion pak. That they have ommitted an error message isn't odd. The N64 hangs before providing the error message because it probably does a CIC check first and then would print the message, and apparently its the other way around for Mario Party. Nothing special or worth notting really.

This of course is a plausible theory, you ll need to dig into the LEO commands that Zelda uses for a more accurate picture.

PS: same region rules apply for NTSC/US n64

[subbie]

What is the misterious dark mater that glues the communication between the DD and N64. Like how does this matter let the DD tell the N64 it's done cooking the chicken?

I must know, I must know when my chicken is done!!

[Barc0de]

didn't we agree it was interrupt requests?:P

[Calpis]

(evidently through interrupt requests).
Through pin 45 ie the CPU's NMI? NMI aren't requests though because the CPU has no choice but to interrupt.


the DD is also region-coded
The disk games are region coded or the 64DD is region coded as a game cartridge?


Region is visible in the N64 deck, so keep that in mind.
You mean the game's header?


The N64 hangs before providing the error message because it probably does a CIC check first and then would print the message, and apparently its the other way around for Mario Party.
The CIC isn't required to bring the system out of reset? Since the DD's CIC is overrided by the game cart, seems to me the game can access the DD regardless of region.



PS: same region rules apply for NTSC/US n64
Regarding the CIC or ROM data?

[oldengineer]

Through pin 45 ie the CPU's NMI? NMI aren't requests though because the CPU has no choice but to interrupt.


The disk games are region coded or the 64DD is region coded as a game cartridge?


You mean the game's header?


The CIC isn't required to bring the system out of reset? Since the DD's CIC is overrided by the game cart, seems to me the game can access the DD regardless of region.


Regarding the CIC or ROM data?


Cool, cheers for the info :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Barc0de]

I m happy to reply to every and any DD related question you may submit. Feel free to shoot!

and of course, any detailed technical information can be provided by Kammedo, at his own discretion, in private ;) Don't bug him though unless you're up to something serious and have the background to understand the info, he's a busy lad!
=)

[kammedo]

=)

*appears in a poof of smoke*

*ahem*

After carefull research / reverse engineering of millions and trillions of code lines, i've come to the conclusion that the DD drive is simply handled by a simple, old-fashioned Int request / response protocol, as most of all the modern-era disk drives do.

As what reserves the C*IC, first some small words about the boot rom (aka P*IF ROM, or Parallel Interface ROM). The PIFROM ensembles what are the IPL-1 and IPL-2 codes, that is

a) IPL-1 is the code that
1) inits the CPU & RCP status
2) xfers the code (IPL-2) from the PIFROM to the RCP IMEM
3) jumps to the initial address of the IPL-2

b) IPL-2 is the code that
1) gets the security key from the C*IC
2) defines the location (=address) of the IPL-3 (also known as game "boot code"), ie if its either R*OM or DD*ROM
3) loads the IPL-3 to RCP DMEM *edit, was RDRAM erroneusly*
4) computes the checksum of the IPL-3
5) sends back the code to the C*IC
6) if correct, jumps to IPL-3 (aka starts executing the IPL-3)

c) IPL-3 is the standard boot code, which
1) copies the first MB of gamecode to RDRAM
2) authenticates the game with a checksum
3) starts executing it if the authentication is ok

The cart C*IC has higher priority in that if the DD Drive recognizes that there is a cart inserted, it disables itself (and thus its C*IC).

*poof*

[DarthCloud]

*appears in a poof of smoke*

*ahem*

After carefull research / reverse engineering of millions and trillions of code lines, i've come to the conclusion that the DD drive is simply handled by a simple, old-fashioned Int request / response protocol, as most of all the modern-era disk drives do.

As what reserves the C*IC, first some small words about the boot rom (aka P*IF ROM, or Parallel Interface ROM). The PIFROM ensembles what are the IPL-1 and IPL-2 codes, that is

a) IPL-1 is the code that
1) inits the CPU & RCP status
2) xfers the code (IPL-2) from the PIFROM to the RCP IMEM
3) jumps to the initial address of the IPL-2

b) IPL-2 is the code that
1) gets the security key from the C*IC
2) defines the location (=address) of the IPL-3 (also known as game "boot code"), ie if its either R*OM or DD*ROM
3) loads the IPL-3 to RDRAM
4) computes the checksum of the IPL-3
5) sends back the code to the C*IC
6) if correct, jumps to IPL-3 (aka starts executing the IPL-3)

c) IPL-3 is the standard boot code, which
1) authenticates the game
2) starts executing it if the authentication is ok

The cart C*IC has higher priority in that if the DD Drive recognizes that there is a cart inserted, it disables itself (and thus its C*IC).

*poof*

Great information! It's fun to know how the N64 work. Witch chip on the board containt the IPL btw?

[kammedo]

Great information! It's fun to know how the N64 work. Witch chip on the board containt the IPL btw?

The one missing from the dev DD Drive board. Check the pictures on the web.

[DarthCloud]

The one missing from the dev DD Drive board. Check the pictures on the web.

I was meaning the IPL-1 and 2 but I just saw in your post that's in the PIF

[kammedo]

I was meaning the IPL-1 and 2 but I just saw in your post that's in the PIF

Yup. In the DD Drive its the "big chip on the left" if you look it from the top, and the drive bay in front of you (the DDROM, that is)

[subbie]

didn't we agree it was interrupt requests?:P

Yes but which one. I still never figured that out so I could emulate it.

:( DD is back in the closet again due to lack of free time.

[Barc0de]

On the issue of region on DD Disks:

Yes, if you have read the official manual there is clear guidance concerning region.

[Speed]

Whats the theoretical size limit on a dd disk?

[kammedo]

Whats the theoretical size limit on a dd disk?

64 MB is the full disk size. You can have up to 7 types of disks, which partition this space into two blocks (RAM & ROM). Was quicker this time barc0de :P

[Calpis]

i've come to the conclusion that the DD drive is simply handled by a simple, old-fashioned Int request / response protocol, as most of all the modern-era disk drives do.
How have you come to the conclusion? This should be a very clear thing for a N64 guru, just look at the NMI vector or documentation or even just check the pin on the 64DD. It either uses NMI or it polls. I don't know what you mean by old-fashioned/modern-era, interrupts and polling are timeless paradigms and both the earliest and most modern computers use both extensively even for the same function.


The cart C*IC has higher priority in that if the DD Drive recognizes that there is a cart inserted, it disables itself (and thus its C*IC).

How does the 64DD "recognize" (I really don't think it's that smart) the presence of a top cartridge *in hardware* though? I don't know how it can. It would be possible for both the DDROM and CIC to always be active but still loose bus contentions with the top slot by simply putting series resistors on the lines to the 64DD.

I also wouldn't think the hardware registers are ever disabled since they are likely decoded past the allotted cartridge space.

Also what's all the CIC jargon for? ;)

[ASSEMbler]

What setting gets you dark toast, and which one for light?

[Infrid]

i have a question: how a normal 64DD game can be dumped?
i know there are some special dev unit, and i assume that you can dump a dev disk easly using a special command, but you can't use a retail 64DD drive with a KMC n64 for a dump, right?

[Barc0de]

With some modifications you can dump retail games. The procedure will not be outlined for obvious reasons.

[Calpis]

The reasons aren't obvious to me? Modifications to DDDump?

I'd try the normal KµC method and if that doesn't work there's another way even "legaller": use a copier which can write back to RAM, or just a Gameshark.

With a copier a N64 program is needed to read half the disk to memory, then the copier can read back that memory, then repeat for the next half. With a Gameshark you need a N64 program that does the same except entirely in N64 memory. Of course this means work, but I don't know what you can do with a 64DD image without work anyway.

[Barc0de]

The reasons aren't obvious to me? Modifications to DDDump?

I'd try the normal KµC method and if that doesn't work there's another way even "legaller": use a copier which can write back to RAM, or just a Gameshark.

With a copier a N64 program is needed to read half the disk to memory, then the copier can read back that memory, then repeat for the next half. With a Gameshark you need a N64 program that does the same except entirely in N64 memory. Of course this means work, but I don't know what you can do with a 64DD image without work anyway.


The purpose of this thread doesn't extend to dumping. That's an obvious enough reason.

[kammedo]

The reasons aren't obvious to me? Modifications to DDDump?

I'd try the normal KµC method and if that doesn't work there's another way even "legaller": use a copier which can write back to RAM, or just a Gameshark.

With a copier a N64 program is needed to read half the disk to memory, then the copier can read back that memory, then repeat for the next half. With a Gameshark you need a N64 program that does the same except entirely in N64 memory. Of course this means work, but I don't know what you can do with a 64DD image without work anyway.

How about a stick and a carrot? :lol:

Of course it works.
Why wasting time modifying DDDump - as far as I know, it can just dump data from disk *images*, not the drive itself, and doesnt even work properly, albeit considering that its only in japanese...


Its really just a matter of legal issues. Apart of that, dumping has never been an issue. The FZero kit floating around in the net is more than enough for gathering enough knowledge.

[Barc0de]

Calpis, seeing that you're so knowledgable of all things n64, how would you like to contribute directly instead of poking fun?=)

[ASSEMbler]

As 64dd is long dead dumping isn't an issue here really.

[Calpis]

Calpis, seeing that you're so knowledgable of all things n64, how would you like to contribute directly instead of poking fun?=)
I don't own a 64DD nor do I have any esoteric history to share so all I can contribute are comments exposing flawed computer logic. I also don't consider myself otherwise knowledgeable about all things N64, to my standards if I were I'd be able to definitively say whether the DD uses interrupts or not etc.

Since the title is "64DD questions? Just ask!" I don't see what's wrong with a question as harmless as how to dump retail disks. Since you've alluded numerous times to your N64 connections, knowledge base and such, refusing information for "obvious reasons" exposes the thread as a Barc0de and kammedo publicity ploy :rolleyes:


How about a stick and a carrot? :lol:

Of course it works.
What does that mean? Of course what works? I think you're missing the point which is: that it's possible to dump games with cheap hardware (certainly NOT obvious to everyone since they buy Partners!) and people should be free to know this without the "obvious reasons" pretense.


Why wasting time modifying DDDump - as far as I know, it can just dump data from disk *images*, not the drive itself, and doesnt even work properly, albeit considering that its only in japanese...
I didn't know, so then the only option is homebrew tools unless there is a secret "leoread" Partner command or other stolen Nintendo software.


Its really just a matter of legal issues. Apart of that, dumping has never been an issue. The FZero kit floating around in the net is more than enough for gathering enough knowledge.
One sentence you say legal issues then the next you're talking about a dump "floating around".. I for one don't have this dump, besides why does knowledge have to be gathered from a dump? Why can't someone just legally dump their own disks to use in a future emulator or something?

[sayin999]

Is 64 emulation even far enough where 64dd emulation can be done at mostly full speed?

[Calpis]

Sure, 64DD emulation has almost no overhead.

[kammedo]

One sentence you say legal issues then the next you're talking about a dump "floating around".. I for one don't have this dump, besides why does knowledge have to be gathered from a dump? Why can't someone just legally dump their own disks to use in a future emulator or something?

Of course I do - it's called "liberty", countries like France, Britain and USA told the world what it means.

[Barc0de]

Since the title is "64DD questions? Just ask!" I don't see what's wrong with a question as harmless as how to dump retail disks. Since you've alluded numerous times to your N64 connections, knowledge base and such, refusing information for "obvious reasons" exposes the thread as a Barc0de and kammedo publicity ploy :rolleyes:
Well I guess then you ll have to wait and see the end results whenever they re ready, that's all I can say for now.

And why would we be after publicity exactly? I have expressly refused to reply to questions regarding emulation and dumps because I don't want to be in any way connected to any dumps when and if they already exist. Besides, what's the use if you don't have a 64DD emulator to run them?


It seems that you have either intentionally or foolishly mislead yourself into believing that this is some sort of publicty related thread.

It is not.

This thread was made in order to answer various historical, software and hardware related questions as well as basic technical information to those who don't own or know what the 64DD and its software and peripherals exactly did.

I happen to be a fanatic of the 64DD for its potential, its design and its mystery. This is evident from the numerous DD related posts and threads I ve made (look in General Gaming for the Artist Creations thread for example).

Finally, I am extremely happy that people contact me when it comes to 64DD related things, including transactions. Why? Because I enjoy answering and working with them in order to gain knowledge and give some back.

What you're essentially saying is this: Since you refuse to answer my questions it is obvious that you are full of shit.

I guess companies like Microsoft are full of shit for not wishing to comment on their future titles or inner workings, right?

Wrong. We are exercising our discretion for our own personal and agreed reasons.

When and if an emulator is ready in the future I will happily point to this thread and I think an apology will be due, as publicly as these claims you make based on what you infer and not what you know.

[oldengineer]

Maybe you should of chosen a better title and description for this thread.

You start this thread by stating...

"I m happy to reply to every and any DD related question you may submit. Feel free to shoot!"

When in reality you can/will only answer very limited or selective questions.

If you had you made an advance list of the questions that you would reply to, or better still, had you just wrote 'The DD history according to Barcode' thread you wouldn't have to worry about being asked questions that you choose not to reply to, and the thread would of worked nicely.

Calpis, and others have only been constructive as far as I can see, they've asked sensible questions about an old dead defunct, failed, and flawed system, which peep's still love to hear about.

[Barc0de]

Maybe you should of chosen a better title and description for this thread.

You start this thread by stating...

"I m happy to reply to every and any DD related question you may submit. Feel free to shoot!"

When in reality you can/will only answer very limited or selective questions.

If you had you made an advance list of the questions that you would reply to, or better still, had you just wrote 'The DD history according to Barcode' thread you wouldn't have to worry about being asked questions that you choose not to reply to, and the thread would of worked nicely.

Calpis, and others have only been constructive as far as I can see, they've asked sensible questions about an old dead defunct, failed, and flawed system, which peep's still love to hear about.

Well I guess TERMS AND CONDITIONS APPLY.

Funny you should bring up the first post of the thread Fred, yet for some reason you have omitted the following line:


and of course, any detailed technical information can be provided by Kammedo, at his own discretion, in private ;)

Therefore:

a)In private means in private when it comes to detailed technical information

b)at Kammedo's discretion, since he is the one who does most of the technical work.

On the facts:

a) The question about technical information was made in public in breach of the first condition; we were kind enough to overlook that and were elastic in that we replied , even in a limited manner, publically.

b) Kammedo exercised his discretion (deriving from the second condition set forth in the first post) in not answering the question that related to dumping.

how much more clear could it be made? ;-) I can suggest the Oxford English Dictionary for further analysis of the above in case there's any doubt as to their meaning :P

PS: Constructive criticism is one thing and I accept it - I even asked Calpis to contribute if he's willing. Inference that someone is doing a publicity stunt is another and very libelous one. There's a line between criticising and offending and turning a willful blind eye to that fact isn't really helping.

[oldengineer]

LOL

You seem to be confusing yourself with Kammedo.

It was you that offered to answer "every and any" question.

...Kammedo as you stated can answer stuff in private at his own discretion, there's a big difference.

Oh, and please do quote from the Oxford Dictionary, I like this kind of discussion :-)

[Barc0de]

You seem to be putting the carriage before the horse my friend.

Sentences are meant to be read as a whole in their own context:


and of course, any detailed technical information can be provided by Kammedo, at his own discretion, in private ;)

This means that I m willing to personally answer to any and every question bar detailed technical questions. Those are clearly directed to Kammedo through the second sentence.

PS: I do enjoy the mooting but I think we ve strayed off-topic long enough =)

[Calpis]

You're implying you're doing the forum a service by having this thread AND that people will ask somehow undignified 64DD questions, something I can't even comprehend. Offering conversation on your discretion, with caveats etc etc in the public news forum is really conceited.


Well I guess then you ll have to wait and see the end results whenever they re ready, that's all I can say for now.
This isn't the first time you've dismissed me by alluded to something vague coming in the future. You should know by now teasing/blowing smoke is ineffective on more seasoned members, what matters is what action everyone sees out of it, so please refrain from mentioning things not applicable to this current time.


And why would we be after publicity exactly?

It seems that you have either intentionally or foolishly mislead yourself into believing that this is some sort of publicty related thread.
Because you do unabashedly self-promote particularly in regard to N64, even in your last response? This thread is essentially telling 4000+ people once again that "team" (remember?) Barc0de-kammedo can answer any of their questions, and implying that you're the end all N64 resource. I also recall a very recent thread where you "don't mean to brag", but you're in the N64 loop and well informed to what goes on. You love N64, you want people to know it, you want people to think of you first when they have some cool N64 info/thing (since you just admitted it), and lastly you DO want people to think you have a role in 64DD dumping/emulation or any other N64 accomplishment. We get it.


I have expressly refused to reply to questions regarding emulation and dumps because I don't want to be in any way connected to any dumps when and if they already exist.
Whether you're connected to dumps or not is irrelevant in this thread since talking about dumping METHODS has nothing to do with the ACT of piracy. That is unless you actually believe nobody but you or your associates are capable of dumping the games, but kammedo got offended when I responded and was like "duh it's easy to dump disks! you want a stick and carrot??" (lol)

Anywho, personally I didn't even think dumping constituted technical discussion, much less non-basic technical discussion strictly directed to kammedo.


Besides, what's the use if you don't have a 64DD emulator to run them?
What's the use in anything? This is such a sweeping generalization. People want to dump games because they can. Perhaps they'll write their own 64DD emulator if you give them the go-ahead.


What you're essentially saying is this: Since you refuse to answer my questions it is obvious that you are full of shit.
I wasn't expecting you or kammedo to answer my "questions", I was just playing devil's advocate since nobody else will. You (and kammedo too) are too sensitive with regard to any challenge, it really looks like you're overcompensating. I wouldn't even comment if I thought what you were saying was undoubtedly correct. If you start a thread like this, things you assert should be. Feel free to correct me with fact any time, as a lover of truth I don't take it personally.


I guess companies like Microsoft are full of shit for not wishing to comment on their future titles or inner workings, right?
No Microsoft loves to comment on, show off and outline their up and coming products and accomplishments, everyone seems to. When they aren't ready to talk about their project however, logically they don't inform people of it.


Wrong. We are exercising our discretion for our own personal and agreed reasons.
Exercise your discretion as Microsoft does. I'm not even calling bullshit and you're making me out to be "rude" by preemptively responding to the doubt I didn't even have to perpetuate had I wanted to.


When and if an emulator is ready in the future I will happily point to this thread and I think an apology will be due, as publicly as these claims you make based on what you infer and not what you know.
What claims am I making now? So let me get this straight, if and when someone, anybody, releases a 64DD emulator, I owe you an apology? How exactly does that work? You're the only one suggesting you have something to prove.

[Infrid]

O_O
oh my God

[kammedo]

Whether you're connected to dumps or not is irrelevant in this thread since talking about dumping METHODS has nothing to do with the ACT of piracy. That is unless you actually believe nobody but you or your associates are capable of dumping the games, but kammedo got offended when I responded and was like "duh it's easy to dump disks! you want a stick and carrot??" (lol)

:lol:
I was just pointing out how silly this thread is turning out, in part due to you and to barc0de (and to me too). I think we should just lock it and forget about it. Just one last precisation : I never said noone would be able to dump the games. So far, I've been the only actually talking about it here it seems. If anyone else has tried, has succeeded, has posted about that argument, well please raise your hand so we can talk and discuss things further. This is just smoke-talk, which is leading nowhere. For me, the discussion was closed way before it started. No calpis, don't worry, there's more needed to get me offended. And surely I dont get offended by a forum discussion. Im almost 30.

EDIT : and btw, i am pretty sure it wasnt barc0de's intention to show off with this thread, but just to make his knowledge (as big and detailed or small and irrelevant it may be really shouldnt matter) usefull to others.

[Barc0de]

You're implying you're doing the forum a service by having this thread AND that people will ask somehow undignified 64DD questions, something I can't even comprehend. Offering conversation on your discretion, with caveats etc etc in the public news forum is really conceited.


This isn't the first time you've dismissed me by alluded to something vague coming in the future. You should know by now teasing/blowing smoke is ineffective on more seasoned members, what matters is what action everyone sees out of it, so please refrain from mentioning things not applicable to this current time.


Because you do unabashedly self-promote particularly in regard to N64, even in your last response? This thread is essentially telling 4000+ people once again that "team" (remember?) Barc0de-kammedo can answer any of their questions, and implying that you're the end all N64 resource. I also recall a very recent thread where you "don't mean to brag", but you're in the N64 loop and well informed to what goes on. You love N64, you want people to know it, you want people to think of you first when they have some cool N64 info/thing (since you just admitted it), and lastly you DO want people to think you have a role in 64DD dumping/emulation or any other N64 accomplishment. We get it.


Whether you're connected to dumps or not is irrelevant in this thread since talking about dumping METHODS has nothing to do with the ACT of piracy. That is unless you actually believe nobody but you or your associates are capable of dumping the games, but kammedo got offended when I responded and was like "duh it's easy to dump disks! you want a stick and carrot??" (lol)

Anywho, personally I didn't even think dumping constituted technical discussion, much less non-basic technical discussion strictly directed to kammedo.


What's the use in anything? This is such a sweeping generalization. People want to dump games because they can. Perhaps they'll write their own 64DD emulator if you give them the go-ahead.


I wasn't expecting you or kammedo to answer my "questions", I was just playing devil's advocate since nobody else will. You (and kammedo too) are too sensitive with regard to any challenge, it really looks like you're overcompensating. I wouldn't even comment if I thought what you were saying was undoubtedly correct. If you start a thread like this, things you assert should be. Feel free to correct me with fact any time, as a lover of truth I don't take it personally.


No Microsoft loves to comment on, show off and outline their up and coming products and accomplishments, everyone seems to. When they aren't ready to talk about their project however, logically they don't inform people of it.


Exercise your discretion as Microsoft does. I'm not even calling bullshit and you're making me out to be "rude" by preemptively responding to the doubt I didn't even have to perpetuate had I wanted to.


What claims am I making now? So let me get this straight, if and when someone, anybody, releases a 64DD emulator, I owe you an apology? How exactly does that work? You're the only one suggesting you have something to prove.

Thank you for your kind words, please read my first post if you have any questions. =)

next customer =)

[subbie]

Is 64 emulation even far enough where 64dd emulation can be done at mostly full speed?

Yes n64 emulation is good enough to do DD emulation (if someone can figure out the key answer which is communication). I don't think any hw part of the DD needs LLE (excluding the IPL rom). The whole thing can be HLE/Simulated.

[marshallh]

Yes n64 emulation is good enough to do DD emulation (if someone can figure out the key answer which is communication). I don't think any hw part of the DD needs LLE (excluding the IPL rom). The whole thing can be HLE/Simulated.

Really the only thing that needs to be done is for all LEO disk access commands to be trapped and rerouted to the host win32 system. The commands are very much like FAT access.

[Barc0de]

Really the only thing that needs to be done is for all LEO disk access commands to be trapped and rerouted to the host win32 system. The commands are very much like FAT access.
yeap, down to LBA.

I think it was NEMU that had some sort of DD support at some point (not sure if that version ever saw a public release)

[subbie]

yeap, down to LBA.

I think it was NEMU that had some sort of DD support at some point (not sure if that version ever saw a public release)

Nemu was to have working DD support but LAC got tired and never finished or released his work.


Really the only thing that needs to be done is for all LEO disk access commands to be trapped and rerouted to the host win32 system. The commands are very much like FAT access.

Trapping Leo commands are simple since they all route through 2 registers (1 data + 1 cmd). So yes largest issue is 1) getting the DD to notify the N64 (this escapes me still), and 2) decoding all the leo commands (atm, I only know Store RTC and one to make my DD light turn on, its either a read/write/sync).

[Barc0de]

subbie, get to me or kammedo on msn for the former.

[subbie]

subbie, get to me or kammedo on msn for the former.

?

PM me or get on msn.

[DarthCloud]

Any reason not giving public information? Since the DD is born dead this should not be a problem...

[subbie]

Any reason not giving public information? Since the DD is born dead this should not be a problem...

for dumping?

Me I say because there is no need for it nor rom hoarders to sit on them. Yet I think once a DD emu is done it will be a moot point since someone will dump them all and then magicaly nobody will give 2 ****s about dumping since they will just go dl it.

-- edit --

Truthfuly if you want the simplest solution (for retail)
1. Learn DD commands
2. Write a rom dumper to v64jr ram
3. Dump the ram to pc
4. Repeat till done

Yet we all probably knew that well in advance and I think this silly rant is more a pissing contest by both ends.

[DarthCloud]

for dumping?

Me I say because there is no need for it nor rom hoarders to sit on them. Yet I think once a DD emu is done it will be a moot point since someone will dump them all and then magicaly nobody will give 2 ****s about dumping since they will just go dl it.

-- edit --

Truthfuly if you want the simplest solution (for retail)
1. Learn DD commands
2. Write a rom dumper to v64jr ram
3. Dump the ram to pc
4. Repeat till done

Yet we all probably knew that well in advance and I think this silly rant is more a pissing contest by both ends.

I was meaning information about emulation of 64DD, IIRC dump isn't that hard when you have the right tools (Partner-N or anyway to run code)

[subbie]

I was meaning information about emulation of 64DD, IIRC dump isn't that hard when you have the right tools (Partner-N or anyway to run code)

Emulation is purely down to someone figuring it out. Furthest I get is waiting for the DD to respond to the N64 but I never found out exactly how (seem to boil down to interupts but which one). Going further would then just require figuring out the DD commands (sdk is rapped in leo commands so one would have to disassemble the leo libs or just toy with a DD unit, again I can set an RTC and get the DD light to turn on but thats about it).


I don't have the time to work on it 24/7 so I work on it in spurts.

[kammedo]

Emulation is purely down to someone figuring it out. Furthest I get is waiting for the DD to respond to the N64 but I never found out exactly how (seem to boil down to interupts but which one). Going further would then just require figuring out the DD commands (sdk is rapped in leo commands so one would have to disassemble the leo libs or just toy with a DD unit, again I can set an RTC and get the DD light to turn on but thats about it).

Yup. And trust me its no easy job to reverse them - making me swet really :P

[Barc0de]

well the catch with legality is using your own tools.

Haven't seen u on msn lately mate, check it out.

[Taucias]

Basically, the supposed method for dumping carts is to use a 64DD dev kit http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14751 and http://assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14820. Why the sudden secrery, when it is a google search away, if beyond me. I think the best way to provide your knowledge to the community would be to create a document that details the ins and outs of the 64DD and then you can control what information is made available and explain everything at greater depth to satisfy small questions that are hard to answer in a forum thread.

F-Zero Xpansion was dumped a while back using a V64 (I believe).

Some good info here: http://s10013.chiyo.enro.at/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=837

[subbie]

I highly believe the F-Zero Xpansion rom on the net is lac's private rip that got handed around alot.

[kammedo]

I highly believe the F-Zero Xpansion rom on the net is lac's private rip that got handed around alot.

Yep. I can confirm it. Lac stopped working on the DD because the games were not worth the effort apparently.

And yes, a dev kit is more than enough to dump dev disks - as for retail disks, both v64jr amd a dev kit are enough with the appropriate software.

[Barc0de]

Yep, I m wondering who got slippery though.

[graciano1337]

so... what was the point of the 64DD. i thought i read in this thread that the DD games don't look any better than 64 games. and the 64DD was still limited to 64mb. so... games on a disc? that was the big deal with the add-on?

[kammedo]

so... what was the point of the 64DD. i thought i read in this thread that the DD games don't look any better than 64 games. and the 64DD was still limited to 64mb. so... games on a disc? that was the big deal with the add-on?

To have a rewritable medium.

[Barc0de]

Having a rewritable medium meant lots of good stuff only possible on PCs back in the day.

This includes surfing the internet, as well as creating/adding content etc.

check this thread out for an example of what the Artist series can do on the DD:
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18493

[graciano1337]

Having a rewritable medium meant lots of good stuff only possible on PCs back in the day.

This includes surfing the internet, as well as creating/adding content etc.

check this thread out for an example of what the Artist series can do on the DD:
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18493

so you could save a game to the disc?? :oh:

[Barc0de]

you could save all sorts of things to your disk, including games you made yourself with the Artist set (although the other disks never saw a release, so that remains a theoretical potential)

Ura Zelda was supposed to be such a disk, that items and stuff u left behind got recorded just as you left them etc.

[Jamtex]

So what date was the 64DD officially released then? :p

[Barc0de]

1999/12/01

[subbie]

Wasn't a secondary benifit of the DD early on that it was cheaper to mass produce DD games then n64 carts of equal size?

[kammedo]

Wasn't a secondary benifit of the DD early on that it was cheaper to mass produce DD games then n64 carts of equal size?
Yes that too.

[Barc0de]

yes of course. I think this was mentioned in one of the first pages of the thread.

Silicon would always be more expensive, but the gamepak penetration rate is 1/1 since all n64 units can play gamepaks. Disks for a D.O.Arrival system on the other hand wouldnt be, so economics dectate that volume of sales in gamepak form would be higher and generate more benefit over time anyway than if they got released for DD.

which bears the question:

why use gamepaks in the first place if 64DD disks were so "great"? :P

possible answer: cost of each unit sold->higher acquisition cost

[Jamtex]

1999/12/01
That's what Wikipedia says but some Japanese websites and other information I have state other dates. I take things released on the 1st of a month with a pinch of salt as Nintendo just list it (and you have to dig to find it as unlike the Virtual Boy the 64DD doesn't have it's own button) as December 1999. The fact the machine was sold subscription only at the start didn't help matters.

The evidence doesn't help as the subscription service to buy the unit was available the month before, the first two titles Mario Artist and Doshin were released on the 11th of Decemeber according to Nintendos website and the Randnet service wasn't running until Feburary 2000. Scanned letters I found, seemed to suggest that people got their units after this time... So unless Nintendo sent units out which you could use a nice paperweights or watch mario spinning the N logo it would suggest that the 1st is not the release date of the machine.

[Barc0de]

The date I posted relates to the subscription plan. I have no date for the retail plan.

The online randnet service did commence on Feb1 , but all titles, excluding the Randnet disk, did not really utilize the modem anyway, so there's no conflict in my view of the two dates.

[Jamtex]

The date I posted relates to the subscription plan. I have no date for the retail plan.
Point 1 was the fact that the first two titles weren't officially released until the 11th of December, so are you saying that people had a nice 64DD that they could watch Mario playing with the N logo until a week and a half had past? :lol: I can't think of a single games console that would have been released a week before any titles were available... so shall we agree that the 11th December was in reality the release of the 64DD?

[Barc0de]

I think we shall! lol

[ElBarto]

What is the file format of a DD (if custom, can you provide specs) and does the sdk provide library to do the work ?

[kammedo]

What is the file format of a DD (if custom, can you provide specs) and does the sdk provide library to do the work ?

Its a common .n64 file, as in N64 executable code + data.

[ElBarto]

I don't know if you understand me correctly so I rephrase :
Is there any fat/iso-9660 thing on a disk or it's just a plain memory zone and you do what ever you want ?

[kammedo]

I don't know if you understand me correctly so I rephrase :
Is there any fat/iso-9660 thing on a disk or it's just a plain memory zone and you do what ever you want ?

I wasnt sure you were actually pointing out to that :P.
But yes, there is some kind of FAT, in that reading from a non-written sector causes an error. But for what kind of FAT it is, and more details you'll need to wait a bit more ;)

[Infrid]

is the 64DD a noisy device? :D

[Barc0de]

yes, it is noisy when it's accessing the disk. nothing too loud though.

[Nintendomad]

Point 1 was the fact that the first two titles weren't officially released until the 11th of December, so are you saying that people had a nice 64DD that they could watch Mario playing with the N logo until a week and a half had past? :lol: I can't think of a single games console that would have been released a week before any titles were available... so shall we agree that the 11th December was in reality the release of the 64DD?


No we cannot, , the first 64dd unit's reached subscribers on the 14th of december 1999, and this was by error, as Randnet wanted them delivered on the 15th.

I'll say it again, there is no such thing as a retail 64dd, and the IGn stories relate to stores that purchased randnet starter kits, and then sold the subscription for the games in their stores.

All this was done through Randnet DD.

The Blue box 64dd commonly reffered to as the retail 64dd is a shop display unit, and was bundled with the demo version of Doshin the giant, which you could not save to. The Blue unit was shipped to stores that were selling the Randnet plan in their stores. It is not a reatil 64DD from Nintendo, it's just like the reatil demo gamecube unit's, or the demo Virtual Boy unit's.

The only 64DD's sold at reatil were starter kit's with randnet DD boxes, and Kyojin No sohin and mario Artist:paint studio. Some also contained the see through bblack N64.

So the offical release date for the 64DD is December 15th 1999, although some subs got theirs a day early.

IGN and other site's are misinformed when it comes to the unit's sold in retail, and that blue box 64DD is a demo unit, though is the same as all other 64dd's released to the public. If these unit's had been sold at retail, the import prices for 64dd would never have escalated to the prices they did, and these blue box unit's would have appeared far sooner than they did.

[oldengineer]

No we cannot, , the first 64dd unit's reached subscribers on the 14th of december 1999, and this was by error, as Randnet wanted them delivered on the 15th.

I'll say it again, there is no such thing as a retail 64dd, and the IGn stories relate to stores that purchased randnet starter kits, and then sold the subscription for the games in their stores.

All this was done through Randnet DD.

The Blue box 64dd commonly reffered to as the retail 64dd is a shop display unit, and was bundled with the demo version of Doshin the giant, which you could not save to. The Blue unit was shipped to stores that were selling the Randnet plan in their stores. It is not a reatil 64DD from Nintendo, it's just like the reatil demo gamecube unit's, or the demo Virtual Boy unit's.

The only 64DD's sold at reatil were starter kit's with randnet DD boxes, and Kyojin No sohin and mario Artist:paint studio. Some also contained the see through bblack N64.

So the offical release date for the 64DD is December 15th 1999, although some subs got theirs a day early.

IGN and other site's are misinformed when it comes to the unit's sold in retail, and that blue box 64DD is a demo unit, though is the same as all other 64dd's released to the public. If these unit's had been sold at retail, the import prices for 64dd would never have escalated to the prices they did, and these blue box unit's would have appeared far sooner than they did.

My god! Yet more interesting DD facts!

:thumbsup: Hands up everyone who thinks Nintendomad should be crowned 'AG's resident DD Guru'. :thumbsup:

[kammedo]

My god! Yet more interesting DD facts!

:thumbsup: Hands up everyone who thinks Nintendomad should be crowned 'AG's resident DD Guru'. :thumbsup:

Welcome nintendomad from the golden land of 64dd :thumbsup: to the crown of dd affiliates at ag!

[Barc0de]

My god! Yet more interesting DD facts!

:thumbsup: Hands up everyone who thinks Nintendomad should be crowned 'AG's resident DD Guru'. :thumbsup:

grow up will you :lol:

Nintendomad, thanks for clearing that bit up! Keep 'em comming and get to me on msn about the other stuff we were talking about!

[Nintendomad]

I've pmed you Barcode, and I'll catch up with you on msn tomorrow bro.

I don't want to be the resident guru, as I think we all know some info and peicing it together is the fun part of the whole thing, but thanks for the nice comment's guys, I really appreciate it. I was just a 64dd absolutely obsessive fan, and have followed all of it from pre release to release but there is always someone who comes along with another piece of info.

Barcode was right in what some of what he said too, and the dates confusion is easy. It was registration for the 64DD Randnet programme online or by phone that finished on the 1st of december, though there was an extension of that deadline for the stores willing to carry the starter kit and this continued until the 15000 unit's were sold.

Also game's could only be purchased with a randnet account, either online or through the randnet disk, or through forrms at stores. But Randnet DD is the publisher for all Nintendo 64DD title's, as it was a 50/50 joint venture with Nintendo, but the Randnet DD company set up did all the publishing and selling. NCL never actually published a title under the name NCL, so that is why the games are not on their website.

Also, in the original Spaceworld announcement and brochure, it had the 1st of december as the release date for the machine, and it was not until September that Nintendo and Recruit decided for definite that the system would only be sold through two sub plans. 2500 yen per month for twelve months got you the starter kit(system. ram pack, modem, modular cable), with randnet disk, mario artist comms disk, and six titles, and 3300 yen for twelve months got you the nintendo 64 randnet clear black model included too.

At the end of your sub, the whole system and kit was yours to keep. And even though stores carried the Randnet DD starter kits in limited supply, you still had to subscribe to randnet DD before you could buy the item in store.
This was the only way the 64dd was sold at retail, and as I said earlier, the Blue box was just for those stores to have a 64DD unit to display, and these were sent out during the registration period, and as i said came with a white labeled Doshin demo disk.

[Jamtex]

Release date for a mail order subscribtion machine is hard to do as now we have 3 dates we could use, the 11th when the games were officially release according to Nintendo, the 14th when some machines were recieved by some subscribers and the 15th which is when Randnet meant to have had the machine. Each date will cause an arguement somewhere... :(

Still thanks for a very detailed and informitive post, now do you have the release date of the Nintendo Odyssey? :p

[ElBarto]

I wasnt sure you were actually pointing out to that :P.
But yes, there is some kind of FAT, in that reading from a non-written sector causes an error. But for what kind of FAT it is, and more details you'll need to wait a bit more ;)

OK, thanks mate.

[Jimmy130]

This was the only way the 64dd was sold at retail, and as I said earlier, the Blue box was just for those stores to have a 64DD unit to display, and these were sent out during the registration period, and as i said came with a white labeled Doshin demo disk.I believe you might be wrong about that.
If the 64DD blue box was just for retailer, the mention "Not For Resale" would appear on the box. Like "Not for resale" was printed on N64 games for distributors.
About the Doshin 1 sample, I don't know how it comes with the 64DD blue box. But it wasn't included in the blue box, as on that box, there is no mention of Doshin 1 sample being included. So maybe this game was sent to a retailer for demonstration.

[Oldgamingfart]

There's a 'retail' one here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-Nintendo-64DD-Console-BLUE-RETAIL-BOX-JAPAN-MINT_W0QQitemZ300242378624QQihZ020QQcategoryZ13997 1QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem). The box also matches the original Jp N64 (http://219.117.236.243/palet_img/7001315a.jpg) console one as well.

[Paulo]

The post above should be deleted as its useless in the sence that in 3 months the "retail" one here link will be gone and no one will know what you meant hence the rule is all ebay items should remain in the ebay thread and anything you want to show you should copy/upload to a image website.

[Nintendomad]

I believe you might be wrong about that.
If the 64DD blue box was just for retailer, the mention "Not For Resale" would appear on the box. Like "Not for resale" was printed on N64 games for distributors.
About the Doshin 1 sample, I don't know how it comes with the 64DD blue box. But it wasn't included in the blue box, as on that box, there is no mention of Doshin 1 sample being included. So maybe this game was sent to a retailer for demonstration.

I know the Doshin Sample disk never came in the box, I have researched the 64dd for years, and I was told by a randnet employee and and a store manager's in tokyo, and kyoto, that there were no such things as retail 64dd's, and that the Blue box version of the console was given to store's by Nintendo for display purposes, along with sending them a sample copy of Doshin to play on the sample machines, and not all Nintendo demo consoles had not for sale on them, did the mosiac box Virtual boy's???

These console's were not for sale while Randnet was on, you could only buy randnet bundles at the store and then sign up to randnet.

These blue box 64dd's were sample console sent out to stores for demonstartion and that is why there is only so many of them. The stores that sold 64dd, sold Randnet starter kit's, and had randnet forms on the desk.

In fact I'm not going to justify myself on this issue, because I know I am right. The blue box 64dd's only started to appear when store's started to sell their old inventory , thats why you never saw them until so late. Also the doshin sample disk was sent to stores so they had something to play on the demo 64dd's, and the doshin demo disk was also present in the 64dd roadshow's, which also had blue box 64dd's as the randnet box had not been finalized on that brief randnet tour of cities before the 64dd's release.

[Jimmy130]

Thanks for your answer.On ebay, I can see multiple sellers who sell the doshin 1 sample in a plastic 64dd case, was it shipped to the retailer in a case?

[Nintendomad]

Yup, was shipped in a standard 64dd shell casing.