Game design documents

[ASSEMbler]

I have some complete game design documents from acclaim.

The design document that shines the brightest is Shadowman 2.

It's not every day you get to see an entire game laid out
from storyboards to the level designs. It's quite a learning experience to
read one of these from a million dollar project. It’s chock full of
lore, concept art, and game play flowcharts.

I have been considering scanning and releasing these; they would
give anyone who is programming on a professional or amateur basis
a super resource. While their games were average, acclaim's documenting process was top notch. It's obvious that the sincere toil of many people
went into this document, and at almost 300 pages, it shows.

I suppose the first problem is the repercussions of releasing such
a valuable document. Secondly, I don't own scanner. Thirdly,
would it make sense to watermark it, or would it just be trouble.

Having worked hard on projects in my line of work, I am torn between
the pride I would have in others being able to see my hard work. I would also perhaps be outraged if I played the devil's advocate.

So I am asking your WELL THOUGHT OUT opinions.
Two second replies are not needed when discussing things like this.

[karsten]

so, my opinion on the matter, is that it's really up to you. /jk :D

I mean, i'm almost always favorable to a public release, since such documentation would really make people understand what is behind a videogame, how is born etc etc. and even more might show game programmers out there how to organize their work like professionals.

i would say release the pack, but the problem is: would someone steal the document for using the game concept as his own or for profit? Would it be ok for you if someone realizes the game and release as freeware? would you consider selling it someday?

I suggest you to consider to release it under some kind of license. WATERMARKING is a MUST. for what concerns scanners, don't be afraid you can esily get a really surprisingly good one for around 50$... i have a Trust one that even takes the burden of removing "noise" from magazine scans by itself and allows for CRAZY resolution and customization of the scan....

[ASSEMbler]

I doubt anyone would infringe on it.

I'm just worried about too much attention.

[sequent_blender]

I really don't know the ins and outs of this, however I'd be fairly wary of releasing it unless I knew the answers to a few questions that spring to mind. I trust that some of our more learned collegues may be able to answer these:

(a) Were the documents legitimately obtained (I presume they came from the Acclaim auction)

(b) Does "owning" the documentation to Shadowman 2 mean that you have the right to release it, or did someone or some company purchase the "rights" to Shadowman 2, the franchise, and hence releasing the documentation may infringe their trademarks or whatever?

If all this checks out, then really it's up to you...

Dave.

[EvilWays]

(a) Were the documents legitimately obtained (I presume they came from the Acclaim auction)

(b) Does "owning" the documentation to Shadowman 2 mean that you have the right to release it, or did someone or some company purchase the "rights" to Shadowman 2, the franchise, and hence releasing the documentation may infringe their trademarks or whatever?

(a) wouldn't me much of a problem, (b) would be more complex as merely having these documents doesn't necessarily infer ownership of the IP. If the "rest of it" (ownership of the franchise and all encompassing properties) were part of how (a) was obtained, then yes.

So (b) would be the sticking point of legality, even if this was just released to this inner circle, if you will.

[Barc0de]

i think a release should be made to individual and trusted members (upon their application for such privately) for serious purposes upon request. Just to be safe.

[kammedo]

Well.
Consider legal aspects first (obviously).

If im not wrong the game didnt get released at all. The company went nuts, you bought from it them via an auction, so its, well, yours. So you are the owner of it. It surely is unique (argh), and if you release it you will get much fame for that. And youll spread it all over the internet, so please before (if ever you plan to) doing so WATERMARK it.

There. *drools*

[ASSEMbler]

Well someone bought the IP for shadowman. I just don't know who, and if they'd go apeshit.

[Flyinghigh]

wow i would like to see such a Game design Document.
I could learn a lot from it for my own business.

[kammedo]

Well someone bought the IP for shadowman. I just don't know who, and if they'd go apeshit.

Well, they dont have the artwork of that - so that means theyr shadowman 2 will never (if ever) be like the one you have. Thus there's no copyright infringement, right? Barc0de please double check this.

[Barc0de]

Shadowman2 was released on the PS2 Kammedo. The game development manual is very much the property of whoever owns the IP I m afraid.

http://www.toysnjoys.com/usps2/shadowman2.jpg

[kammedo]

Hmm Ok. But it states "Acclaim". ASM buyed it from theyr funeral auction?

[KaL_YoshiKa]

I guess the question is..if they now own the rights to Shadowman does that included all documents produced retrospectively. They own the legal rights to Shadowman and presumable all trademarks and publishing rights but does that intitle them to ownership of production documents that were made prior to their acqusition of the Shadowman franchise.

If I understand my laws correctly (and I'm only going by what I know) I would expect that these documents were protected mostly by Acclaim's confidentiallity agreements and not by ownership. I'd guess the only thing this could risk is damaging the potential profit of future shadowman games which could be grounds to sue. Or breech of copyright as Acclaim is now dead so you're not breeching their privacy laws to my knowledge though I guess the new company could make a claim that they now own the documents.

I'd say release them but I'm not the one who'd be held liable but I would like to check them out.

[Barc0de]

its really simple to be honest

it's more probable than not that someone will get in trouble for releasing this.

[kammedo]

its really simple to be honest

it's more probable than not that someone will get in trouble for releasing this.

Yeap. Thats ok. I think thats why we are discussing the whole thing in here..or at least my sense for law knowledge (quite non existant for the chronicle) points me to it..
What if he scans the things and blacks the names out?

[Hawanja]

Well someone bought the IP for shadowman. I just don't know who, and if they'd go apeshit.

Perhaps then you should contact them and get thier approval first (in writing,) or simply contact a lawyer if you're worried.

I wouldn't be though, it's kind of like releasing an alternate, unfilmed movie script after the movie had been filmed ( I have one for Alien 3 actually, much better than what they actually made.) Chances are whatever they're working on is probably vastly different than what the docs you have outline.

When you obtained this material from the auction, did you have to sign any kind of non-disclosure agreement pertaining to any of this? If not, then you probably have nothing to worry about.

However you should get confirmation from them or a lawyer if you're worried, else just release it anonymously.

[Barc0de]

I think since its in the interests of game making and future game makers, removal of any sensitive material (so the only thing apparent is the process) should be fine and it's fairly arguable. After all, NDA forms of nintendo for example have been used as examples in websites etc, and those arent the most common thing around either.

[mairsil]

There are two ways that I would approach the material. First, the entire design document, and the design practices held within, could be considered a trade secret. However, since the material was (presumably) obtained through a legal auction without special conditions attached to it, then trade secret status would no longer apply to it as it has made it onto the "open marketplace."

Second, and the most obvious problem, is simple copyright infringement. Any images, characters and storylines in the documents pertaining to a particular property (e.g. "Shadowman") are copyrighted and would remain the property of whoever purchased the IP rights when Acclaim folded. While it would be perfectly legal to possess, transfer or even sell the original copies of the design documents, reproduction rights would remain with the IP holder. Unfortunately, as with everything else it comes down to: "will they find out and will they care?"

Having said that, approaching the design documents from an "educational" standpoint proposes an interesting situation. If you were to encapsulate these documents in an "educational environment" (might want to read this first (http://www.megalaw.com/top/copyright/17usc110.php)), I think that you would be relatively ok, though I personally would probably still remove material if asked.

[Crescent]

Well someone bought the IP for shadowman. I just don't know who, and if they'd go apeshit. Afaik, all the original Valiant characters (which were bought by Acclaim in 1996) returned to Valiant Entertainment in 2005 after the bankruptcy but they could have been resold since then.

[sequent_blender]

So it would appear, in summary, that there's sufficient doubt about the legality of releasing the documentation that you should probably avoid a widespread release.

However I think, as Barc0de previously said, a limited release to trusted members of the forum (upon request) on condition that no-one is permitted to further forward it without gettng permission from you, may be appropriate.

This should be done by PM because there's no guarauntee that some people that may object, or otherwise potentially cause trouble, don't have access to this section of the forum. Just my opinion.

[madhatter256]

Release it, see what happens. I know you don't want another Sonic Xtreme fiasco.

There were people on here and on ebay that had design documents for sale for games already released.

Just put a disclaimer on it.

[Sojiroh]

I'd really like to take a look a those documents, but seeing that the Shadowman IP returned to the original owner maybe it could cause trouble (but then again, maybe not). As Hawanja said you could just release it anonymously.

[sayin999]

I know it sounds ridicules, but assembler do you have a lawyer? If so is it possible to ask him on this situation?

[ASSEMbler]

Well if there was a release, it would be scrubbed of personal info and dumped anon onto a newsgroup or rapishare.

I have all of their follow up docs too, like the features they removed, people they fired or who left, the criticisim of the skills of some people.

While fascinating, that is real stuff that could seriously harm someone's rep.
That stuff I won't release.

But the design doc is brilliant, it's like a "how to make a game" rolled into one. Stunningly complex, and stylish as well, it's themed...

[mairsil]

Heh, I'm sure some of the letters could be really entertaining to read through, but those definitely should not be released.

[ASSEMbler]

Looks like throwback enetertainment only have rights to the Acclaim IP's, aqnd the licensed ones reverted to the trademark holder.

This would mean valiant comics.

It seems the only title worth a damn, re-volt is in for a remake.
I honestly think those guys threw away 3.5 million when they bought
all of acclaim's ips...

[Sojiroh]

Heh, I'm sure some of the letters could be really entertaining to read through, but those definitely should not be released.
Agreed, and if you decide to release the other documents you should do it like Barc0de says:
i think a release should be made to individual and trusted members (upon their application for such privately) for serious purposes upon request. Just to be safe.

[karsten]

you have PM kevin.

[Parris]

Well someone bought the IP for shadowman. I just don't know who, and if they'd go apeshit.
This is the precise reason Diddydonn & I decided against currently releasing "Emergency Mayhem". Given that Codemasters were about to release a (very different) version of it on the Nintendo Wii. One developer we asked about it actually laughed and said 'Go on, live dangerously!' and I thought 'Nah, not right now thanks!'

I also think it should be made available only to trusted members. As for watermarking it...

I am torn. A) You don't want it falling into the hands of someone who immediately thinks he / she can profit from it and B) at the same you don't want too much attention. :noooo:

[Borman]

Just watermark the first page as "Anonymous Games" and the rest as "AGames" ;) Close enough, without giving up too much

[Barc0de]

Watermarking a la Borman gets my vote:P

As for the matter of a lawyer, there is no real reason why Assembler should spend money on legal advice when it's evident that it is more probable than not that some of the material will give rise to the disatisfaction of someone somewhere - just not worth the risk.

Because even when you're totally legitimate in every way, there might always be someone to challenge that, and this will end up in a)stress b)lost time and perhaps c)costs, even if the case doesnt really lead anywhere - or a settlement in the best case scenario if it does.

Why go through all that trouble when you can just avoid being known/traced in the first place ?=)

[Unorthodox]

Being a big fan of the Shadowman games I'd love to see this released. I think the best way would be as people have mentioned; remove all personal information, anything that might be considered risky, watermark with something like "for educational purposes only" and release anonymously onto rapidshare/public torrent.

[Borman]

Torrent is the worst idea really, since there really is no such thing as an anonymous torrent heh

[unclejun]

And what about freenet?

[ASSEMbler]

I think newsgroups would be the best way, as well as rapidshare upload via proxy.

I also have the design docs for:

Dave mirra, that is around 350 pages. It has all level designs, great stuff.
Basically a how-to for driving games.

I, Gladiator - A great god-of-war learning tool.

Kung Faux - Horrible idea never past discussion, it was basically an online
FMV battle game with the lines dubbed over by "popular hip-hop stars".
Yep. I might pass on this one as it's still a living IP.

I don't know the value of these, I suppose I could ebay them and
make some cash, but I think that these would inspire many
many people to do programming and level designing.

I think that once this is unleashed, it will become a sort of amateur defacto
tool..

So I am willing to release them all, and Karsten is going to help me
censor out the names addresses and anything that might hurt people.

I want to release them all in one giant pack along with maybe 10-15
cds I have of renders, 3d models, textures, and sample source code
from some failed projects they had.

What I need is a scanner, a Fujitsu scansnap S500 or S510.
Most of these pages are UK paper size, as they came from Acclaim Teesside, aka Iguana UK.
The real question is is there enough people interested to raise the money for the scanner.

[sequent_blender]

Would it be easier/cheaper to take it to a print shop and get them to scan it to pdf?

[ASSEMbler]

I tried, they won't touch copyrighted material.

[karsten]

kev, nevermind my PM. i misunderstood your preceding words.

[Flyinghigh]

how much would that scanner cost?

[ASSEMbler]

Anyone who wants to kick in can pm me. I wasn't ready to raise any funds yet , but people are already helping out.

[kammedo]

Anyone who wants to kick in can send something to superpawnshopusa@aol.com. I wasn't ready to raise any funds yet , but people are already helping out.
Just to make things clear : paypal right?

[ASSEMbler]

Yeah. I'm going to post some pics today.
I've had some animal problems that are distracting me.

[Unorthodox]

Thanks for deciding to release to documents Kev :).

[ASSEMbler]

I'll add some pictures tonight to help motivate people. That said, this project will be limited the release to 0th bit members only. We only have two people helping out so far, so if I have to I will limit the release to those who helped out I will. $10 is not a lot for a copy of these docs, I have people trying to buy them off me left and right.

I'll post more pics later on to get the interest going, as they say a picture is worth a million words.

[Hawanja]

Would it be easier/cheaper to take it to a print shop and get them to scan it to pdf?


No. You're looking at up to $10 a scan, at some places. Better just to get an el-cheapo scanner and do it yourself.

[graciano1337]

i'll help out. a lot of people could benefit from these docs. i also wouldn't mind checking out the design process.

[sequent_blender]

A donation via PayPal is winging it's way to you. Really interested in seeing the design documentation...

Dave.

[ASSEMbler]

Many thanks. I'm up and awake now, I'm going to take pics.

[retro]

I'm willing to chip in, but I need to sort out my PayPal as there's no payment method on there at present!

[Sojiroh]

I'm willing to donate too, I just have to ask permission to use my credit card with paypal xD

[Jasonkhowell]

I'll donate $5 or so once I get my paycheck tomorrow. I really want to see these documents, and wouldn't mind throwing in a few bucks.

[kholdfuzion]

Sent you a lil something this morning.

[KaL_YoshiKa]

And slowly sending..you'll get it eventually..There docs sound more then worth it.

[zappenduster]

Anyone who wants to kick in can send something to superpawnshopusa@aol.com. I wasn't ready to raise any funds yet , but people are already helping out.

should we leave any info as of membername or so for the transaction ?

[ASSEMbler]

Only if you want to. I would say it's a good idea.
I can always e-mail via paypal. So far, we have
a total of six people.

[ASSEMbler]

Someone who is a member of this this forum just tried to sign me up for about 25 mailing lists once I posted my paypal e-mail address.

PM me for the address as I have changed it.

But for now, here's the ip address of the person who tried to send me all the spam.

IP address: 204.101.165.194
Reverse DNS: [No reverse DNS entry per toroon63nszp05.srvr.bell.ca.]
Reverse DNS authenticity: [Unknown]
ASN: 577
ASN Name: BACOM
IP range connectivity: 2
Registrar (per ASN): ARIN
Country (per IP registrar): CA [Canada]
Country Currency: CAD [Canada Dollars]
Country IP Range: 204.101.0.0 to 204.101.255.255
Country fraud profile: Normal
City (per outside source): Newmarket, Ontario
Country (per outside source): CA [Canada]
Private (internal) IP? No
IP address registrar: whois.arin.net
Known Proxy? No
Link for WHOIS: 204.101.165.194 (http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=204.101.165.194)

[mairsil]

I know I shouldn't laugh, but...

Anyway, maybe that person has a virus? (Hint: if you are in that IP range, check your computers)

[ASSEMbler]

Nope, it's intentional. I have IP addresses as well. If someone wants to act like they are 12, so be it. all it means is I take a second to make my spam filter bigger.

I've closed out the fundraiser. So if anyone wants to chip in you have maybe 12 more hours.

[Nitro734]

Someone who is a member of this this forum just tried to sign me up for about 25 mailing lists once I posted my paypal e-mail address.

...

City (per outside source): Newmarket, Ontario


I live 40 minutes from Newmarket, if anyone digs up an address I can save all my phyical junk-mail for a week and shove in their mailbox :P

I'm glad you're releasing this, I'll PM you after I finish this post for the details on how to send you some cash to help out.

You know, it would be interesting to find out the IP holder's (presumably Valiant) opinion... there is the chance that they would give their blessing to have this information released to the public. There is also the chance that making them aware of attempts at distributing these documents will result in measures to thwart the release (lawyers, ninjas, etc).

In any case, can't wait to see it :)
- Don

[Sojiroh]

Damn it, i've not been able to tak with my parents yet, so i guess i won't be able to donate this time

[jccochez]

12 hours and you message is 3 hours old? I'm in :)

can you PM you adress? thanks

[EvilWays]

PM sent to ya, Kev.

[drx]

PM sent

[Omar]

Releasing anything based on it without the license would infringe copyrights.
Doing anything based on the documents by itself would be costly (remember that the million are going into actual production, documentation and pre-production is a fraction of total development cost) so no shady developers will do that.

Putting watermark indeed is only asking for trouble and watermarks are plain stupid and should be banned from the internet anyway. Having obtained and scanning releasing those documents is one great action of goodwill but not warrant of sticking a watermark when you consider the work that have been put into it originally.

By the way writing 300-pages design bibles this way is not always a good thing for the video game industry, at least there's an open debate. When you say:
"While their games were average, acclaim's documenting process was top notch"
Consider that there is a relationship.
Documenting = reducing risks, locking contents = doesn't matter if the game ends being bad, it's too late anyway
Building video games is not as simple and mastered as building a movie.
The best games were never built this way.

[kammedo]

Consider that there is a relationship.
Documenting = reducing risks, locking contents = doesn't matter if the game ends being bad, it's too late anyway
Building video games is not as simple and mastered as building a movie.
The best games were never built this way.

Yep true, but we are talking tech stuff here - no final viewpoint. You shouldnt start a game if you dont believe it will be a success, at least imo.

[mairsil]

Building video games is not as simple and mastered as building a movie.

True, but it is still, to a certain extent, a software engineering problem. Design and other technical documents are a requirement in many fields of software engineering and it is natural that some parts of the game industry would rely heavily on them.

[Omar]

Fun, charm, gameplay, are partly software engineering but they are not well predictable and understood as of yet. The best games were always built without locked design documents. Blizzard works this way, The Sims were built this way, Nintendo works this way. Wonder why THEIR games are always late and delayed? Because they understood how unpredictable game development is, and they know that accepting this fact allows them to makes the best games.

I agree that documents have their use in particular on large projects. I was mainly reacting to that quote "games were average, but documentation top-notch". So in sense while the design bible may be a read of great interest, it is certainly not a lesson on how to build great video games.

[HHogan]

Shadowman is owned by Valiant Entertainment (no association with the previous Valiant, they are just using the name they bought)

www.valiantentertainment.com

I Gladiator became Gladiator: Sword of Vengeance and that's owned by Throwback.

[Bert Hardy]

>>watermarks are plain stupid and should be banned from
>>the internet anyway.
Utter bollocks.


Kev - it's too risky. Think of the potential consequence. That answers your question.

If in 6 months from now it was released via a source that had nothing to do with you then you wouldn't have to worry about all this anyway.

[retro]

Ahh, I missed it, was waiting for PayPal to authorize my card!

If I can still get in, please let me know, Kev.

Cheers! :thumbsup:

[Tomcat]

Would love to see them, alas I think there too hot to be made open. Unless you blanked everything and made a template for new game producers to use?

[ASSEMbler]

I lost my net access for a day.Pics coming in an hour.

[ASSEMbler]

Building video games is not as simple and mastered as building a movie.
The best games were never built this way.

Every single game has a plan. Weapons, levels, theme. No one makes a game without a design document. How do you coordinate 40 people without one?
Impossible.

[ASSEMbler]

http://assemblergames.com/images/docs.jpg

[mairsil]

Tasty

[graciano1337]

nice!

[Tomcat]

Made down the road from me. How much would something like this cost?

[ASSEMbler]

I guess I could ebay it for some money but these are great learning tools.

I already ordered the scanner. Any extra cash goes into the
site account.

[KaL_YoshiKa]

Awesome..!

[Flyinghigh]

Wow there is even something for Turok 4, very interesting

[kammedo]

Hell yes! More!!

[ASSEMbler]

Fund collection is done. Fire-wsp donated more than 2/3 of the costs himself. Many thanks to everyone who kicked in. This new scanner allows me to scan all of my megadrive-beep magazines as well, so some 40
Japanese 1990's game magazines will be online eventually.

14 people donated. I will eventually disclose the financial records
for this project (without names) as part of my open book policy on
any fundraising done here.

-ASSEMbler

[ASSEMbler]

First scan is done!

[madhatter256]

Cool beans. I've come across many design documents before, most of them well written. Curious to see how detailed this one is...

[ASSEMbler]

I am away on business until monday, so play some GTA IV until then!

[KaL_YoshiKa]

I am away on business until monday, so play some GTA IV until then!

Will do :D

[ASSEMbler]

The scans are done. Please read the new threads that will be made per document.

[comicbooknerd]

While I would love to see something like this in its entirety, to as you say, get a full idea and fully understand all the hard work etc that goes into something like this, I must agree with many people here that it does seem to shout for trouble. It obviously sensitive info and with it being the whole package I could understand why someone may get very angry about a release.

If you were to do it, I agree watermarks should be used. If you were to release a few pages of it as samples to show extracts I think even that might drum up enough interest to get it noticed, and if you release a few parts you may aswell release the whole thing.

As much as I'd love to see it I think getting it all online is just trouble. If it was shared in a different way then its a different matter, but putting it all up for anyone to come across is asking for it in my opinion.