Thread quality?

[Calpis]

I've noticed a lot of these threads lately:

"The sky is falling! See this article I've linked/embedded proves it!"
"Any interest in my super sweet _____?"
"Check out this project that this cool guy finished"
"Which _____ should I buy?"
"What is your dream _____?"
"My _____ broke/is broken, help!"

Yeah, I know every new thread can't be expected to provide original content but (in my opinion) a lot of these threads seem pretty far removed from (my interpretation of) the site's mission and they're cluttering up the forums by obscuring original content threads.

What does this mean? I dunno. Perhaps these "relatively on-topic" threads should have their own forum? Perhaps we should start a AG renaissance? Perhaps I'm a jerk for posting this?

[limey]

I don't think posts like those have reached critical proportions yet. They seem largely positioned in the general gaming/off topic/japan threads & aren't cluttering the more serious forums. For the most part I get more entertainment than irritation from most of these posts. Sure, they're not 'core', but at least the site is alive & isn't suffering the slow 1-post a week death of some boards.

I'm actually glad that the site & it's users are tolerant of 'my xxxxx is broken - help!' posts, as they've helped me out a few times!

[hl718]

Some sort of quality meter would be awesome though, especially if it is community moderated.

For example, the ability to "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" a thread would be a great way for the community at large to say "this is a very useful thread/post" or "this is a poor thread/post."

As limey mentioned, the "fix-it help" posts can be quite useful. Now add in a quality measurement and it becomes easier to see who the really knowledgable/helpful posters are.

-hl718

[limey]

Some sort of quality meter would be awesome though, especially if it is community moderated.

For example, the ability to "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" a thread would be a great way for the community at large to say "this is a very useful thread/post" or "this is a poor thread/post."

As limey mentioned, the "fix-it help" posts can be quite useful. Now add in a quality measurement and it becomes easier to see who the really knowledgable/helpful posters are.

-hl718Well, there is that 'Rate Thread' option at the top-right? I've only ever noticed it used for a relative few select threads, though...

[Calpis]

Wow, I never noticed it... Time for everyone to start using it!

[hl718]

Wow, I never noticed it... Time for everyone to start using it!
Ditto that.

Never saw it either. Oops.

I'll go be quiet now.

-hl718

[Yakumo]

That's why God gave us eyes :lol: Look and thou shall find :nod:

Yakumo

[karsten]

eheheheheh you can already rate topics and users :) done a few times, but not useful if lots of people don't do the same...

[Parris]

I agree with Limey (partly because I know I am probably under threat of extinction lol). No need to name and other sites that struggle to attract any posts at all, but we all know of sites where there is little or no community. It can happen for a number of reasons, but when it does it must be depressing for those who set the site up!

Luckily most of the topics you have mentioned are confined to the 'off-topic' section.

What you don't want happening however is AG to become elitest and inaccessible. The only way to keep new interest from those (like me) who have little experience is to allow discussion. As people become more comfortable and accepted in the community, they get more involved.

There is absolutely nothing stopping people posting in-depth, technical or more on-topic posts (as you suggest).

AG is a lot better than some sites, which is why this total noob stuck with it whilst giving up or totally ignoring other sites. There are a few posters on ALL sites who post verbal cardboard however and these are the people who should be stopped in their tracks and ba...................

<User banner for verbal cardboard> ;-)

[DRussian]

Verbal cardboard I like that phrase.

Anyway on topic, I think this is a transitional period really as the hardware of last generation has been talked to death and a lot of new members wouldnt want to drag up old topics too much. The current generation is hindered by NDA`s, tight lips and lack of knowledge.

As long as the topics stay in their relevant places it shouldnt really be a problem, it is nice to have a community atmosphere discussing all manner of topics. However more technical and focused discussion on the obscurities of the gaming world will be much welcomed by everyone. People have to be posting these threads in the first place, maybe its time for people to showcase and discuss their prized items for all to see. The user submitted articles thread could be the kick in the pants you`re after if the members can come up with interesting and informative pieces.

Has their been a steady decline in the content of posts over the years, i`m guessing there has.

[Calpis]

What you don't want happening however is AG to become elitest and inaccessible. The only way to keep new interest from those (like me) who have little experience is to allow discussion. As people become more comfortable and accepted in the community, they get more involved.
Well, I want AG to be at least mostly about rare/obscure, and just because a board is content-driven doesn't make it elitist. If a board is inaccessible to someone, it's THEIR job to make it accessible, they can't expect everyone to hold their hand AND be their friend, since that's not a two sided relationship.

There is absolutely nothing stopping people posting in-depth, technical or more on-topic posts (as you suggest).
Yes there is! Some of the best AG members are only lurkers because the forum can't be taken seriously, especially regarding development. There are a lot of talented homebrewers/hackers/sceners out there, but in order for them to invest their time in AG, they need some reSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMcation. Threads like these don't help:

"how can I make my debug play retail"
"what is this dev item I outbid you on?"
"help me fix my broken devkit"
"here are some illegal files for you to collect"

Luckily most of the topics you have mentioned are confined to the 'off-topic' section.Nonono, I completely ignored the off-topic forum when posting this, all examples were gathered from the rare/general/dev/etc sections.

Anyway on topic, I think this is a transitional period really as the hardware of last generation has been talked to death and a lot of new members wouldnt want to drag up old topics too much. The current generation is hindered by NDA`s, tight lips and lack of knowledge.
This is not true, there are so many things that could be spoken about past consoles but aren't. If people would only compile rare/obscure data about retail it would be a good use of a post.

Also the current generation CAN be talked about a lot more than it is, it just isn't because clean-room hackers don't choose to talk here, instead they choose *WAREZ* boards, which is sad since AG, with less of the illegalness, could be a better outlet.

As long as the topics stay in their relevant places it shouldnt really be a problem

But in my opinion they don't because there are currently no relevant places for these threads.


More of my views:

I check this website probably 10 times a day (which is my own problem, I know) and constantly click on each forum to see what new posts appear. Most of the time I'm pretty disappointed because the new posts are just lazy. It's sort of okay to be lazy when replying to a thread, but when starting one? I donk't think so, but I'm not the judge of quality on the forum, we all are.

Final points:

-Personally, I feel that less is more regarding threads. Just because a board gets slow shouldn't make everyone post just anything to break the awkward silence.
-If people feel the urge to be a journalist, they could at least write their own posts.
-I think it would be a very good idea for borrowed-content threads to have their own forum since AG isn't everyone's private blog.
-I think we should have a designated help forum since it's aggravating for practically every post to be asking or posing a question for the poster's personal benefit.

[Divine Evolution]

I find it hard to say (because I feel the number of subforums bas ballooned a bit out of proportion) but I think at the very least a Console Support Forum (like the Computer Support Forum) could actually be useful to remove the overabundance of those posts from regular view but still provide access to the useful information they contain.

~Krelian

[limey]

Well, I want AG to be at least mostly about rare/obscure, and just because a board is content-driven doesn't make it elitist. If a board is inaccessible to someone, it's THEIR job to make it accessible, they can't expect everyone to hold their hand AND be their friend, since that's not a two sided relationship.One thing that stands out about this board is it's general wilingness to help/guide/nudge noobs in the right direction without squishing them at the first attempt. When I transitioned from lurker to poster, I tried to do the research & not ask stupid questions, but when you're a noob, it's hard to know whats stupid sometimes. That's not to justify some of the obviously lazy posts, mind you, but I'm grateful for the general level of tolerance. Remember that for the majority of users on a board like this, their initial posts will be questions, simply because of the s-p-e-c-a-i-l-i-s-e-d topic of interest & the fact that here is one of the few places where such info appears to be gathered.

As long as this stuff stays largely in the off-topic/general gaming/japan areas, I'd generally be satisfied.

Here's one thing that might help - let's populate & point to the wiki more. I suspect that a lot of the 'my xxxx is broken' type posts get irritating through repetition, so having some of the more frequent issues/solutions/info in there would probably help noob & experienced user alike. Stuff like Parris' TOOL guide are definitely wiki-worthy, IMO.

And let's use the thread rating more, too!

[DRussian]

This is not true, there are so many things that could be spoken about past consoles but aren't. If people would only compile rare/obscure data about retail it would be a good use of a post.

Also the current generation CAN be talked about a lot more than it is, it just isn't because clean-room hackers don't choose to talk here, instead they choose *WAREZ* boards, which is sad since AG, with less of the illegalness, could be a better outlet.



I agree it was a stretch for me to say they have been talked to death, It came coupled with the comment that many new members might not want to drag up older topics (clearly this isn`t the case as the site is ballooning).

More comparisons of beta/debug/review/preview versions of games to retail would be great to see and if the differences were abundant they would probably also make the data more valuable for the owner.

There are probably a lot of discs in collectors hands that havent been documented which is a shame. We all like to see screenshots of game data that was cut during development.

[madhatter256]

I feel everything is fine. The general gaming forum is filled with what some of you are complaining because that's what the forum is for... general gaming. I kinda see it as a filing system. If a new member who has tons of info about stuff even the seasoned member here doesn't know, but posts it in the wrong forum, we really shouldn't scold them for not paying that much attention. A mod can simply move it to the forum that is more appropriate for it.

Obscure Gaming forum is like the catchall for a lot of the rare topics. Mostly games, not hardware.

Of course, with every new person there is always a chance an old thread topic will spring up or a new topic will be created, especially if an older one is deep within the pages.

Comparing now to what the place was like when AG switched from EZboards, a lot has changed. This current format and organization of forums is pretty good.

Don't forget that there is a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo that is holding back a lot of information these lurkers and members carry. There's NDAs, gag-orders, injuctions, etc. keeping a lot of people back. There's nothing we can do about it.

[Calpis]

I'm not complaining that general gaming is filled with general gaming etc, I'm complaining that it's filled with non-content. Practically all the content on the board is contained within responses to threads, not the initial post itself. From my experiences on other (granted more technical) boards, this isn't normal.

Don't forget that there is a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo that is holding back a lot of information these lurkers and members carry. There's NDAs, gag-orders, injuctions, etc. keeping a lot of people back. There's nothing we can do about it.
That's a horrible (and overused) excuse! The types of people I mentioned are not even in the game industry with little exception. There is plenty of interesting, RIGHTEOUS information, clean-roomed by individuals which in the scheme of things are even better than the industry's. There's also nothing stopping those in the industry from contributing all they know about things unrelated to their jobs.

Let's face it, some of the lurkers lurk because they don't see the forum as a respectable place to settle or they don't feel their endeavors would interest or be appreciated/recipr0cated* by the members here.

*note: there's an autoreplace on cipr'o'

[marshallh]

I think you could probably sum it up like this: This website isn't your personal blog. There are the topics that are somewhat interesting (say, assembler's illusions thread) but then there are others that pretty much fit what calpis is talking about.

People not posting much? I don't post a lot because I don't know any original knowledge. Then there are those that have some useful, interesting tidbits but probably don't share because it would be washed away in the flood of... stuff.

Thread ratings? Doesn't stop people who talk just to hear themselves talk *cough*Barc0de*cough* (j/k).

[Barc0de]

well you know what they say: you have to like the sound of your own voice =P

[ASSEMbler]

While some people post topics that seem, well, void of
redeeming qualities, we must remember that this forum
was founded with the goals of avoiding the elitism, snobbery,
and unfriendliness found in other forums.

One of the worst sins we have is the unwarranted flaming of new
users.

I set up distinct forums to keep such casual discussion to a specific area.
Namely, general gaming and off topic.

The other forums generally have a certain expected quailty to posts.
While we do get some lackluster threads sometimes, I think that people
come here because we know so much, and are so helpful. To all of the
sudden lose our tolerace would be a great disservice.

We honestly don't have that much post volume, and we could stand to
have more quality posts. If you feel like posting, and are worried your
thoughts will be discarded, ELABORATE. If you value your idea, you will
flesh it out.

Remember, off topic and general gaming are basically dumping grounds.
We made the areas because people can't resist posting gaming news that
wa all knew about three days prior.

Be more open and more friendly. It's not hard.
It's always easier to complain about problems than it is to fix them.
If you want to see more quality posts, post some yourself and lead by example.

[3do]

I do beleive there are some less interesting threads and i myself have probably stared a boring thread like my xxx is broken or whatever.

I know this forum is geared towards rare, obscure and the less known gaming items but beleive that general gaming and off topic sections useful becuase it gives members a chance to post what they want and have a friendly disccussion when they might not post elsewhere because of lack of knowlege in rare and obscure things or what not.

[Parris]

Genuinely I am interested in the comments being made as I think to a certain extent you have a point, but on the other hand...

1) People not posting, lurking etc. I mentioned this a long time ago and suggested that because someone hasn't made a contribution does not mean they have no value on AG, they really should be encouraged to come in from the cold and give their opinion. I know for a fact that there are those involved in the industry who keep a keen eye on this (and other) sites.

In particular I know someone who is currently employed putting together a title for the Nintendo Wii. Given the nature of the job, the NDAs (which is NOT an excuse all of the time) and the fact that he doesn't want to be swamped with queries this particular guy prefers to speak directly to a few people he knows. He's not regular, but he has on several occasions asked that various information is NOT put on AG, which I have respected.

There is nothing stopping anyone posting anything (unless illegal), so I'm sorry, but I disagree. If the site was of no interest to them they'd not visit, become or remain active members. Not everyone is interested in imparting information online for a variety of reasons.

2) AG is a community, not the be-all and end-all of the gaming industry. Holding the contributing members to account for that is a bit unfair, especially as it is linked to the fact that those who do not contribute are potentially of more interest lol.

You can't just complain that you are not seeing what you want from the site, you've got to make the first step - which I guess you have done in pointing out your views - however content is provided by all of us, so contribute content! (Don't worry, I know you do as I have seen material you have posted).

3) Perhaps rewarding people for reaching particular posting stages (i.e. 5000) is the wrong attitude. Instead of being reward for saying lots (which is very tempting if you wanted a new avatar or to be seen to contribute regularly to the community), perhaps people should be rewarded whenever they contribute good, informative material to the site?

Regular contributors might perhaps be viewed as more site supporters than someone who has perhaps just done a lot of posting about unrelated stuff.

4) It's a balancing act. I've seen good sites die because nobody wanted to post anything. You should allow in-depth and cardboard conversation in equal measure. It might be time however to review the way the threads sit side-by-side.

5) I hate elitist sites that remain closed doors to anyone who isn't perhaps as technically interested as those posting. I am NOT an expert, I class my self as an interested party and as such many of my threads are questions rather than answers. The responses are of course of great value to me (and perhaps others) because many of the contributors have really interesting facts and queries to throw back.

IMHO that's a pretty good starting point. I know for a fact a lot of people are worried about asking questions because they fear being laughed at.

I'm a noob and I don't mind admitting it. If this site ever became intolerant of new members or those who have perhaps less knowledge than the older members then I'd simply lose interest. The answers that you say people should seek for themselves might not be as readily available to people (like me) who have no idea where to begin. Being pointed in the right direction is very valuable and much appreciated.

[Festerfly]

in support of Parris' last comment, i feel that it should be reminded that everyone has to start somewhere (myself included) and without asking questions / reading other's quetsions i would not have learnt as much as i have from here...

This site is a valuable resource for the members/lurkers/unregistered etc, just becuase some dont contribute as much as others, doesnt mean they are less valuable....

Off my soap box now. :D

[karsten]

While some people post topics that seem, well, void of
redeeming qualities, we must remember that this forum
was founded with the goals of avoiding the elitism, snobbery,
and unfriendliness found in other forums.

One of the worst sins we have is the unwarranted flaming of new
users.

I set up distinct forums to keep such casual discussion to a specific area.
Namely, general gaming and off topic.

The other forums generally have a certain expected quailty to posts.
While we do get some lackluster threads sometimes, I think that people
come here because we know so much, and are so helpful. To all of the
sudden lose our tolerace would be a great disservice.

We honestly don't have that much post volume, and we could stand to
have more quality posts. If you feel like posting, and are worried your
thoughts will be discarded, ELABORATE. If you value your idea, you will
flesh it out.

Remember, off topic and general gaming are basically dumping grounds.
We made the areas because people can't resist posting gaming news that
wa all knew about three days prior.

Be more open and more friendly. It's not hard.
It's always easier to complain about problems than it is to fix them.
If you want to see more quality posts, post some yourself and lead by example.

i agree completely with Kev, and what i agree the most is:

"If you want to see more quality posts, post some yourself and lead by example."

i felt the need to give a better contribution on the forums even before this topic surfaced, and i wrote an article, hoping to "move" something. If people will keep posting better things, more informative articles and such, the general level of the forum will improve to excellence.

so, not for boasting myself, but people should follow my lead for saying so and write about what they know about or what can be helpful. this is how the wiki started.

karsten

[Barc0de]

I agree with Parris.

@Parris: there is a rating system for users actually. You can rate users on specific posts.

Maybe those should be used more and perhaps the score put in display next to the avatar. This way, a person could quantify how well-received or not a certain contribution is.

That said, this could potentially scare users who lack confidence and give out the wrong meaning.


We're here for a common purpose, it is true, but this doesn't mean that we can't further socialize as humans. I m glad I ve met plenty of interesting minds here on the boards, and we often discuss in private about other things besides gaming as well.

I think the boards are ok the way they are in general, but more technical knowledge and details are always welcome subject to their availability of course.

[Parris]

I think what is clear to me is that a "Intro guide" to individual / specific development systems is long overdue. The information may already exist in chunks, comments, data or other threads spread across thousands of posts, but colating it into a coherent and downloadable guide per console would be a feat of work worthy of any site.

The net benefit would be to halt the number of ''basic'' queries that longer established users feel keep cropping up time & time again. It might also be a means of generating further discussion.

By ''guide'' I don't mean anything patronizing, however it could be sub-divided per unit. I.e. How to repair, how to install, What is required (software wise) and ultimately a users guide.

Whenever new or noob users (hello, that'll be me then) come to AG they can access a large batch of easily followed material and then when they are comfortable, start asking appropriate questions. It would shift a lot of the entry level questions that frustrate away from the main threads.

I like the overall feel & look of AG, however for the more experienced user there might be a real need for a section where really it's more motorway traffic of in-depth discussion than pottering about at the shallow end (hello me again!)

The material already exists elsewhere, or if it doesn't then Limey's idea of a Wiki is excellent. I loved Karstens recent article(s). More of this stuff please!

UJ, Port and I (why me?) have discussed the possibility of writing a PS2 Tool guide that covers the above and I am all for it. It would make my life easier as it might explain some of the issues I keep finding with the unit.

TBH, what prompted me to post a LOT of the questions I posted regarding the Tool was a fellow AG user who admitted to me that he'd owned one for ages, had asked questions, hadn't really understood or got the answers that came back and he ditched the unit for almost 2 years! That can't be good community cohesion! That dude knows his stuff, but felt out of his depths and couldn't find a means to ask without feeling in the spotlight!

Noobs are great, they ask the questions you want to ask and are afraid too. So, it's a bit like that old Woody Allen film "All the questions you ever wanted to ask about development kits, but were too afraid to ask".

If the answers are already there, then the chances are you'll actually find more people taking an interest and through time the level of debate will rise!

Anyhoooooo, I'm teaching and the class are kind of looking at me like "What next?" so I'd better go.

[karsten]

The material already exists elsewhere, or if it doesn't then Limey's idea of a Wiki is excellent. I loved Karstens recent article(s). More of this stuff please!



thanks for appreciating my topic, but i'd like to point out that WE ALREADY have a wiki (i contributed quite a bit there too) :D

it's here:
http://assemblergames.com/wiki/dogatemysnes/pmwiki.php?n=Main.HomePage

this one of my entries (vandalized):
http://assemblergames.com/wiki/dogatemysnes/pmwiki.php?n=Topics.SNES-CD-ROM

we have the tools but we lack the knowledge of them.

maybe having a "PORTAL" (marshall is still loving me for this... check his quote) before entering the forums might be an help in organizing resources llike wiki, faqs, main topics, news and such.

but right now we're about to move servers from what i understand so i guess everything is kept on hold.

[Parris]

Sorry Karsten, I was meaning in terms of us ALL using it and in particular me taking Limey's advice re the Tool thread.

[karsten]

Sorry Karsten, I was meaning in terms of us ALL using it and in particular me taking Limey's advice re the Tool thread.

hey, my friend don't feel pointed at! i didn't mean to sound harsh or anything, and i understood that you weren't referring to me.

hey, parris, beside barcode the people here are a friendly bunch :D

(barcode is becaming a scapegoat.. who stole my PS3 TEST? it was barcode! :P )

[Parris]

hey, my friend don't feel pointed at! i didn't mean to sound harsh or anything, and i understood that you weren't referring to me.

hey, parris, beside barcode the people here are a friendly bunch :D

(barcode is becaming a scapegoat.. who stole my PS3 TEST? it was barcode! :P )

Barc0dio has a PS3 Test? :drool: Nice one mate! <Back on topic!> It's ok Karsten, I didn't feel under and particular pressure, just pointing out that I knew others have done some Wiki work. Didn't realise how much though.

[Calpis]

Hey hey hey, back on topic guys.


It's always easier to complain about problems than it is to fix them.
If you want to see more quality posts, post some yourself and lead by example.
And boy do I try, even when they're intended for one person or they aren't the popular opinion.


3) Perhaps rewarding people for reaching particular posting stages (i.e. 5000) is the wrong attitude.
Definitely.

*More rantage ahead*:

If you really comb this board, you will find that 90% of the posts are one-liners and often they're just repeats of what other people have said and have no real value to people who started the thread or people who are
reading the thread.

Example responses to a FS thread:

guy 1: "damn ______, now i don't have money"
guy 2: "wow, great deal, too bad i'm broke"
guy 3: "if only i didn't buy ______ ..."

Example responses in a "can you help me with my project?" thread:

guy 1: "i can't help, sorry"
guy 2: "i wish i could help, but i don't know anything"
guy 3: "i know someone who did something like that, hes dead though"

Yeah, we all understand that everyone wants to contribute something but can you imagine if every member here posted responses like "i can't help"? Wouldn't it make more sense if only the people who can/will help posted? It seems that a lot of people don't get that a forum isn't like private email, when someone posts a thread, they generally aren't talking directly at you, so they aren't looking for your life-story unless it contributes to their thread.

[ASSEMbler]

It's so wrong to laugh, but that is some funny shit calpis; you hit that on the head as far as the sales responses lol.

[PhreQuencYViii]

I guess the good thing about those is they bump the topic? lol.

[Barc0de]

I can't afford a PS3, let alone a TEST PS3 u knobs!:P maybe I should start a "Charity for XMAS" thread for myself and collect funds so I may justify your allegations of owning a Ps3 TEST though... hmm!