64DD Dissection

[Barc0de]

http://64dd.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=381&forum=3

56K users be warned.

The insides of the 64 DD :love2: A rather expensive item to pop open ;-)

[babu]

nice, now open a 64DD dev unit and a 64DD disc :nod:

[CrAzY]

How I yearn for a 64DD... :crying: Its so beautiful! :lol:

[Serantes]

i just would like to see the internals of the reader and the disc ...
this would be really nice :)

[Mark30001]

Bah, about time someone had the balls to open one up. :thumbsup:

*loves dissecting dev units*

[subbie]

I wish he would open furter to show the reader.

Also i would love to see this compaired with a dd dev unit.
lol probably be cheaper to open a DD dev unit then a comercial unit (since nobody still can get a dev unit running).

[kammedo]

Noo!! that's absolutely insane! :lol:

[Barc0de]

I ve seen the insides of dev DD units. They just have an empty space where DDrom should be. I can't recall if there's a battery though , which i doubt somehow.

[kammedo]

...which is the one labeled NUD-JPN-2 right?

[Shadowlayer]

So, thats all? I knew there wasnt any extra processors (just 4MB of RAM) but man thats looks empty.

About the reader, what all the fuzz about? is not much different than a ZIP drive.

[Barc0de]

actually there's a 32bit circuit in the DD. The extra ram you talk about is the expansion pak, the 64DD doesn't have RAM on it.

The reader is quite different from a zip drive, considering there are 6 types of disk for the stock DD, and a totally different setup for the dev DD. Also, the way that the logical partitions are mapped and read are different from a zip disk. Stuff is handled via LBA though.

The only similarity between the DD and a Zip drive is that they are magnetic disk media, none other.


The 64DD is one of the "smarter" add-ons out there, if not the most clever one, what was it supposed to pack in your view?

Unlike the DC's serial port, the n64 deck uses a double cart-ridge interface with a single PI access system , on a shared bus. Broadly speaking, it's like reading from two different cartridges alternating.

[Shadowlayer]

Yeah the 64DD actually needed the extra 4MB EP to work, I misread that part...


The 64DD is one of the "smarter" add-ons out there, if not the most clever one, what was it supposed to pack in your view?

If you ask me there wasnt much more to put into this thing.

They could've added another GPU to expand the graphical capabilities of both machines but that may have a bad effect on coding, making it harder for developers to make everything work together.

The only real failure I see is that they released it way too late, since at the time nobody cared about this addon at all. With the DC already out in the states most users were looking foward to the N64 successor (which was announced less than a year after the 64DD's launch).

Mid or fall 97 would've been a much better launch date...

BTW, what about disk access times? please tell me it was faster that a ZIP drive...

[Barc0de]

Access times depend on the radius naturally.

Seek time is averaged at 75ms and there's 1 MB/sec data transfer rate. Mind you, that's more than twice as fast as the PSX or Saturn drive's speed.

The device was designed to be a drive, nothing more.
Adding more hardware inside would be 1) technically impossible and impractical, since the RCP and the CPU are the central stars of everything in the n64, making any external path a slow and unreliable way to process things (PI access is turn-based/burst access - how the hell would you run real-time 3d code in such as fashion? :lol:)

2) Why add to the cost? the damn thing was expensive to boot, and comes to prove that add-ons need to be released in a timely manner and have adequate support in order to succeed. That said, the most succesful add-on to my knowledge so far for any console (worldwide) has probably been the GB player for the GameCube :p

However, *if* nintendo had routed their majors titles or some of them,(as they intended) to the new add-on they could have forced a good share of consumers to spill about 100-150 dollars for the add-on. This would automatically mean however that a good amount of people owning a regular n64 deck console would be left out because they couldnt afford or couldnt be bothered to expand their consoles.

If it was bundled with, say Zelda 64, then it could have been stellar in my view - but if that was the case, Zelda 64DD bundle-pak would cost about 100 dead presidents to say the least, and it still wouldnt sell as much as it did when it was released regularly as a gamepak.

Statistically, add-ons are sub-divisions of a larger pie, that of the console base. For the former to match the latter in absolute perimeter is an impossibility, so it's bound to occupy a smaller (often much smaller) area in the pie. This is my mathemetical proof that add-ons just can't be as widespread and succesful as their original console =)

[Shadowlayer]

I believe the problem with addons is that companies just wanted to get more profits by using the existing userbase as a launch pad for more products.

With standalone units is just a matter of choice, yet with addons theres no such thing: you have to get the base unit to use it.

So, is no surprise that addons were so popular at a time when consoles were rarely sold at cost, let alone subsidized like the X360 or PS3 today.

Ergo, just like there were literally tons of peripherals at the time, addons were also a source of income for companies.

Today I believe MS is also loosing money on the HDDVD addon, just to show how different things are today....

[Barc0de]

MS is not losing on the HD-DVD add on. They don't make a profit from the movies and they can't recoup losses from HD-DVD games, and as such it has been made clear by the company that the HD-DVD add on is being sold at a profit.

[Alchy]

Statistically, add-ons are sub-divisions of a larger pie, that of the console base. For the former to match the latter in absolute perimeter is an impossibility, so it's bound to occupy a smaller (often much smaller) area in the pie. This is my mathemetical proof that add-ons just can't be as widespread and succesful as their original console =)You're forgetting the PSX memory card and dual shock pad, both of which had near 100% user base penetration by the end of the product cycle ;)

I'm only messing with you, I know you were talking more serious hardware additions, but both of those were pretty unprecedented in gaming. Prior to that all consoles either had SRAM on cart or on-board (Saturn and Mega-CD both had the latter), and I can't think of another console that managed to phase out the original pads so entirely.

[subbie]

Barc0de,

Not to be mean but wouldn't the Famicom disk system be more sucessful? I know it was limited to japan but it seemt do well. I dont remember the GBA Player selling all that well (they end up bundling it in japan with the gamecube).

DD to me is still one of the most interesting add ons. I just hope that once it's hacked for dumping tools and emulation, beta images will start poping up on the net (seems a few people do actualy have a few alpha/beta dd games).

Shadowlayer,
Truthfuly unless an add on could fix the n64 issues of low t-mem or crapy microcodes, no add on could ever really improve the n64 at all (mem expansion pak help because the n64 had unified memory and not a pre allocated vram).

[mathieulh]

A good start to start dumping 64DD games would be to reverse the japanese version of FzeroX and see how it interacts with the 64DD.

Then we could try to copy the disk data to ram and write it to a v64jr (in several parts)

I think it can be done, but the 64DD is too rare and people with a 64DD and a v64jr are even rarer to find and nobody really cared about the very few existing 64DD games (none of the retail games are killer apps)

Maybe dumping the Mother 3 discs (which we are not sure they are even legit) might be worthed. I bet that if a zelda ura disc was suddently to surface a lot of more people would be interested xD

[Barc0de]

Barc0de,

Not to be mean but wouldn't the Famicom disk system be more sucessful? I know it was limited to japan but it seemt do well. I dont remember the GBA Player selling all that well (they end up bundling it in japan with the gamecube).

DD to me is still one of the most interesting add ons. I just hope that once it's hacked for dumping tools and emulation, beta images will start poping up on the net (seems a few people do actualy have a few alpha/beta dd games).

Shadowlayer,
Truthfuly unless an add on could fix the n64 issues of low t-mem or crapy microcodes, no add on could ever really improve the n64 at all (mem expansion pak help because the n64 had unified memory and not a pre allocated vram).

That's very true. FDS was successful in some capacity, hence why i said Worldwide. the FDS wasn't released elsewhere, and it's doubtful that even if it had (in some form) people would trust it in the west.

Well don't just hope! get cracking my boy! People would kill for the wealth of material we ve accumulated :lol:

[Barc0de]

You're forgetting the PSX memory card and dual shock pad, both of which had near 100% user base penetration by the end of the product cycle ;)

I'm only messing with you, I know you were talking more serious hardware additions, but both of those were pretty unprecedented in gaming. Prior to that all consoles either had SRAM on cart or on-board (Saturn and Mega-CD both had the latter), and I can't think of another console that managed to phase out the original pads so entirely.

Well i ll mess some with you too then! :lol: The rate of PSX mem-cards and dual schocks is far from 1/1 ;) There's bound to be people without one or the other, or neither, yet still owning a PSX! lol

The memory card exaple is unfair though, and the controller example is like saying that the Wii's nunchuck or Classic controller wouldnt sell because its a "special" add on. Besides, neither memcard or controllers are as expensive as "life sustaining" add-ons.

//Messing with alchy mode over//

[subbie]

A good start to start dumping 64DD games would be to reverse the japanese version of FzeroX and see how it interacts with the 64DD.

Then we could try to copy the disk data to ram and write it to a v64jr (in several parts)

I think it can be done, but the 64DD is too rare and people with a 64DD and a v64jr are even rarer to find and nobody really cared about the very few existing 64DD games (none of the retail games are killer apps)

Maybe dumping the Mother 3 discs (which we are not sure they are even legit) might be worthed. I bet that if a zelda ura disc was suddently to surface a lot of more people would be interested xD

Actualy reversing the IPL is even easier. I actualy have already been doing that but am limited on time and DD unit is a little finicky (I do also have a DD & v64Jr).

The method you described is pretty much the simplestly way to do it.

-- edit --
You psp dev mathieulh? If so it's me Monkey.

[mathieulh]

Yes I am the very same one :)

I didn't know that you had a 64DD :) In fact I aquired a unit very recently (the 64DD randnet pack) and I was becomming interested about it.

Do you have the IPL dump ? Is it the IPL4ROM or the IPL for retail 64DD ?

[Barc0de]

both ;p

[mathieulh]

I am interested :) It would be nice to reverse and check the differences between the retail and the devkit IPL.

Also I'll try to find out how to dump a game if I have time.

[karsten]

If so it's me Monkey.

you were one of the famous tactics monkey?

[Barc0de]

I am interested :) It would be nice to reverse and check the differences between the retail and the devkit IPL.

Also I'll try to find out how to dump a game if I have time.

Writing an application using the LeoCommands should be easy , even with the SDK. It's just pump-n-dump really. There have been *some* advancements in dumping. Not sure whether it would be prudent to discuss further publicly on the matter though. ;)

Regarding the comparison , there are quite a few differences. Subbie would have probably kept notes of this work, so I can't speak on his behalf - I understand he's a very busy professional :)

[subbie]

you were one of the famous tactics monkey?
?

No i just mean I am PSmonkey from the psp scene. Mat knows who i am. :) He probably just does not know my handles on other msg boards.

[karsten]

?

No i just mean I am PSmonkey from the psp scene. Mat knows who i am. :) He probably just does not know my handles on other msg boards.

oh i see.. there was someone called "tactics monkey" that was working on decripting the 3d maps of FFT... but i gues it's not you :P

[DarthCloud]

I was looking to some document I got on CD-R from a guy who as sell me a wide-boy64 CGB some year ago and I find those two 64DD dev kit motherboard picture.

You can easily see that the pcb layout is a bit different. Maybe cause dev kit as an older pcb revision?

On the pcb bottom there is a piece of wire witch seem to be added.

Also there is two additional IC's near the deck connector on the top side.

Is anyone ever try to remove or disable the IPL in a retail 64DD to see if it possible to get a dev kit with a retail machine? (Like with DIY KµC N64)

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/2366/mb64dddevbottomsu6.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mb64dddevbottomsu6.jpg)

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7450/mb64dddevtopnj6.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mb64dddevtopnj6.jpg)

[Barc0de]

you don't even need a real DD attached to run the dev IPL on a standard n64 console - this is further facilitated because the dev IPL uses gamepak memory addresses , unlike the retail DD.

[Japan-Games.com]

I might have an extra one laying around that I could be persuaded to throw in for a good cause...

[Cheese007]

Holy crap, I never rwalized it was so tiny!

[subbie]

I might have an extra one laying around that I could be persuaded to throw in for a good cause...

oh?
:icon_bigg

[Japan-Games.com]

Yeah, if someone is qualified to take it, analyze it, and report on it.

[Barc0de]

Yeah, if someone is qualified to take it, analyze it, and report on it.

and return it to you, migt I add =)

wouldn't want anyone to make a profit out of "alleged" research.

[kammedo]

I might have an extra one laying around that I could be persuaded to throw in for a good cause...

If it intrests, i have my retail DD dissected and am currently trying to map everything down. I think i will finish this weekend.

[Japan-Games.com]

I don't know much about the technical details of hardware so I've never spent much time in that area of the board. That's to say I really don't know anyone's technical reputation.

I'd rather just donate it to the board and let you guys decide. I'm sure there's a short list of names of people who could do a good job of it. If you guys want to nominate some people I'll make the choice, but right now I'd just be pulling names out of a hat. If you're like me you have a million things going on so I'd just want to make sure whoever takes it actually has the time to do the work.

The unit really isn't anything special, just a bare system with scuffs/scratches. I haven't sold it because I never got around to it. Plus I have 6 others. :)

[subbie]

I don't know much about the technical details of hardware so I've never spent much time in that area of the board. That's to say I really don't know anyone's technical reputation.

I'd rather just donate it to the board and let you guys decide. I'm sure there's a short list of names of people who could do a good job of it. If you guys want to nominate some people I'll make the choice, but right now I'd just be pulling names out of a hat. If you're like me you have a million things going on so I'd just want to make sure whoever takes it actually has the time to do the work.

The unit really isn't anything special, just a bare system with scuffs/scratches. I haven't sold it because I never got around to it. Plus I have 6 others. :)

It's a dev unit correct?

[Barc0de]

nope, it's a retail unit.

Without wanting to go in other people's fields, I believe that our most competent members on the topic of DD, Kammedo and Subbie, have already got retail units.

It would be a shame if you lost out on such a profitable item japan-games =)

[kammedo]

Well, a test sacrified unit would be a good help...Dont get me wrong, it took me three weeks to decide to open mines (and it wasnt that easy at all, i only hope to be able to get it to work again xD), but having something you can sacrifice (as your unit would be) could be intresting and surely helping. You in Japan right japan-games?

subbie : I have pictures of the internals, i will post them.




nope, it's a retail unit.

Without wanting to go in other people's fields, I believe that our most competent members on the topic of DD, Kammedo and Subbie, have already got retail units.

It would be a shame if you lost out on such a profitable item japan-games =)

[Barc0de]

I guess that would constitute fair use of such a unit =)

[subbie]

nope, it's a retail unit.


Oh. -_-

I need a dev unit to toy on (coding, not breaking open).

[DarthCloud]

I should get mine (Retail 64DD) today normaly (if rain stop a little)

I would like to try disabling the IPL
but since blue dev seen to be useless, I think getting a retail 64DD to work as a dev one still a useless thing at the end...

I don't have a DCC board/ipl4rom/masteredBlueDisk anyway to test it after....

[kammedo]

DCC Board you dont need, you need ipl4rom and at least one disk.
The differences between the two systems arent that clear up to today. The SDK states clearly that they are different, and that disks from one kind shouldnt be used for the other one.

I dont think that the only difference between the retail and dev unit is the DDROM, so I would be very careful on that side...
Can I add your msn contact?


I should get mine (Retail 64DD) today normaly (if rain stop a little)

I would like to try disabling the IPL
but since blue dev seen to be useless, I think getting a retail 64DD to work as a dev one still a useless thing at the end...

I don't have a DCC board/ipl4rom/masteredBlueDisk anyway to test it after....

[Barc0de]

you just cant use a DEV DD as a retail one and the other way around - issue being the disks are incompatible between the two, not the IPL.

[kammedo]

you just cant use a DEV DD as a retail one and the other way around - issue being the disks are incompatible between the two, not the IPL.

Not sure about that. File format should be the same actually, HW is different IMO. Thats why the Debugger doesnt dump retail disks but just dev ones..

[DarthCloud]

Just got my 64DD, wow it's even more awesome machine than I tought is was!!! :D

Everything work.

I did some test like I have said to kammedo so the result:

Like I have tought US OOT v1.0 (NUS-CZGE-USA) (gold cart) do not work.
I tought it will at least give me en error message, but it just won't boot at all.
I think that the cart when booting look for a US 64DD unit and find a JAP one and them stop with black screen.

I also tried a US OOT v1.1 (NUS-CZLE-USA) with the exact same result :(

So I'm going to try to find a US OOT v1.2 (NUS-NZLE-USA) (player's choice cart) All the 64DD code should be removed it that version.

I don't want to remove my 64DD everytime I want to play the greatest game in history in english ;)

I never see this information somewhere before, but maybe this issue I'm describing is well know to 64DD owner....

[kammedo]

Great to see you have a working unit! Jump over at 64dd to post your s/n! :)

As for Zelda, well, Ninty hardly could had thought about releasing the 64DD to USA, so i dont think thats the reason. Maybe its more a CIC issue.



Like I have tought US OOT v1.0 (NUS-CZGE-USA) (gold cart) do not work.
I tought it will at least give me en error message, but it just won't boot at all.
I think that the cart when booting look for a US 64DD unit and find a JAP one and them stop with black screen.

I also tried a US OOT v1.1 (NUS-CZLE-USA) with the exact same result :(

So I'm going to try to find a US OOT v1.2 (NUS-NZLE-USA) (player's choice cart) All the 64DD code should be removed it that version.

I don't want to remove my 64DD everytime I want to play the greatest game in history in english ;)

I never see this information somewhere before, but maybe this issue I'm describing is well know to 64DD owner....

[DarthCloud]

Great to see you have a working unit! Jump over at 64dd to post your s/n! :)

As for Zelda, well, Ninty hardly could had thought about releasing the 64DD to USA, so i dont think thats the reason. Maybe its more a CIC issue.

It's not related to CIC at all, since US and JAP system/cart share the exact same CIC, The only different between JAP and US N64 stuff is that the cart plastic casing is a bit different so jap game cannot be connected to a US system and virce-versa, Removing the two little plastic edge inside N64 deck solve this problem.

Also, nintendo did make a lot of avertasing in '97 - '98 for the 64DD on their offcial US website.

If you look to the 64DD IPL chip you can see -JPN at the end.

So OOT look for a 64DD US IPL for sure.

EDIT: (I'm confident of this, but it's just speculation of course...)

[Barc0de]

indeed, coding guides suggest different headers for US and JPN games, set manually at low level.

[DarthCloud]

indeed, coding guides suggest different headers for US and JPN games, set manually at low level.

I looked at the IPL rom and the region is write in the header in both the name and region space.

I going to buy an 32Mbit (4Mb x 8) eprom and will modify the header so it's contain USA and E in the name and region field respectively.

I'm wondering if OOT look there to determine the 64DD region.

(I'm taking as fact that zelda actualy won't boot cause it detect a JAP 64DD, but again this is just speculation maybe US OOT just don't like the DD after all ;) )

[Barc0de]

When a gamepak supports the 64DD then it will refer to the DDROM at domain 2, when needed, which is usual to be on boot - I believe your assumption might be correct.

[DarthCloud]

When a gamepak supports the 64DD then it will refer to the DDROM at domain 2, when needed, which is usual to be on boot - I believe your assumption might be correct.

Domain 2? Is that meen Slot-1 (aka. DD Slot)?

[subbie]

I did some checkint into Zelda. It does actualy read from IPL space at the start. This is a sharp difference from F-Zero which checks the DD status reg first before trying to communicate with the DD.

I am guessing Zelda does 1 read to see if the IPL addr start returns an invalid address. If it dont then it later (before the nintendo 64 logo) does a second read of the IPL (again prior to any cmd writen to DD regs).
The 2nd addr is not a header read and i've not been able to get much further then that last night (out of time).

So a change of the rom header name to (U) from (J) most likely wont fix the issue at hand.

I'll do more checks to see what is required to make OOT (u) work (I was testing OOT (J) against no ipl (i dont emulate ipl yet).

[DarthCloud]

I did some checkint into Zelda. It does actualy read from IPL space at the start. This is a sharp difference from F-Zero which checks the DD status reg first before trying to communicate with the DD.

I am guessing Zelda does 1 read to see if the IPL addr start returns an invalid address. If it dont then it later (before the nintendo 64 logo) does a second read of the IPL (again prior to any cmd writen to DD regs).
The 2nd addr is not a header read and i've not been able to get much further then that last night (out of time).

So a change of the rom header name to (U) from (J) most likely wont fix the issue at hand.

I'll do more checks to see what is required to make OOT (u) work (I was testing OOT (J) against no ipl (i dont emulate ipl yet).

Cool, keep me informed, I should receive the stuff needed to replace the IPL IC so if you can find what OOT is looking for and where it is in the ipl rom that would be great to try out on real hardware what happen.

[kammedo]

Domain 2? Is that meen Slot-1 (aka. DD Slot)?

Not actually.
The N64 defines two so-called "Domains", which are nothing more than memory areas mapped to the PI - the Cart and DD slot.
Now, this is needed because you can connect different devices to the PI (cart, DD, etc) everyone of them has different access timings etc. By settling up domains, you can define such parameters for each domain.

0x0500 0000 to 0x05FF FFFF Cartridge Domain 2 Address 1
0x0600 0000 to 0x07FF FFFF Cartridge Domain 1 Address 1
0x0800 0000 to 0x0FFF FFFF Cartridge Domain 2 Address 2
0x1000 0000 to 0x1FBF FFFF Cartridge Domain 1 Address 2

there you go :)
Remember, those are physical adresses!

[Japan-Games.com]

I'll be sending the unit to kammedo on Friday. You can direct any questions to him.

For the record I'm lending the item and paying for shipping. You're free to do what you want for research. If you reach a point where you feel like you've "finished" then please pass it along, even if it's not working at that point.

[Barc0de]

I'll be sending the unit to kammedo on Friday. You can direct any questions to him.

For the record I'm lending the item and paying for shipping. You're free to do what you want for research. If you reach a point where you feel like you've "finished" then please pass it along, even if it's not working at that point.

Although I m not a privy party to this agreement (yet at least) I agree on the terms, they seem fair for their purpose.

I m certain kammedo will take good care of the unit even when he's slaughtering it, he's a magician =)

[kammedo]

Thank you japan-games! I hope this helps to clarify up some things! :)

[DarthCloud]

Just tryed an US OOT v1.2 same result as v1.0 and v1.1 :(

[Gilgamesh]

Hello,

I know someone who is looking for the same things as you.

But he tried with F-Zero X pal version. You can look this video

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x43dho_fzero-x-pal-with-64dd-doesnt-boot_videogames

He found that F-Zero X doesn't boot with Expansion Pak + 64DD. But works well with the simple Jumper Pak.

Have you tried to boot Zelda OOT without the Expansion Pak ?

[DarthCloud]

Hello,

I know someone who is looking for the same things as you.

But he tried with F-Zero X pal version. You can look this video

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x43dho_fzero-x-pal-with-64dd-doesnt-boot_videogames

He found that F-Zero X doesn't boot with Expansion Pak + 64DD. But works well with the simple Jumper Pak.

Have you tried to boot Zelda OOT without the Expansion Pak ?

Hum, didn't think to try that.

Will try later, unfortunaltely my jumper pak is in a box of useless stuff far away in my closet ;)

I'm more seeking to get it play without swapping anything, so I will buy an JAP one when a I have some cash or try to find a way to mod the DD...

Anyway swapping between jumper and expension pak is not that bad after all also...

[DarthCloud]

Finaly found my jumper pak, neither OOT 1.0, 1.1 or 1.2 boot with jumper pak.

So the boot sequence is not the same as F-zero

OOT look for the IPL before lookking at the expension pak :(

[DarthCloud]

I did some checkint into Zelda. It does actualy read from IPL space at the start. This is a sharp difference from F-Zero which checks the DD status reg first before trying to communicate with the DD.

I am guessing Zelda does 1 read to see if the IPL addr start returns an invalid address. If it dont then it later (before the nintendo 64 logo) does a second read of the IPL (again prior to any cmd writen to DD regs).
The 2nd addr is not a header read and i've not been able to get much further then that last night (out of time).

So a change of the rom header name to (U) from (J) most likely wont fix the issue at hand.

I'll do more checks to see what is required to make OOT (u) work (I was testing OOT (J) against no ipl (i dont emulate ipl yet).

Hey subbie do you think that it will be possible to force OOT, when it look if it can access the IPL, to make it JUMP direcly at the next command (the one that occur when that fail) using a GameShark code?

[kammedo]

Hey subbie do you think that it will be possible to force OOT, when it look if it can access the IPL, to make it JUMP direcly at the next command (the one that occur when that fail) using a GameShark code?


Wont work. The System checks for DDROM in the PIF boot code, then jumps to DDROM if its there. But you cant mask a DDROM with a game shark as its mapped differently from the Cart space (domain 1 vs domain 2!)..

[subbie]

Hey subbie do you think that it will be possible to force OOT, when it look if it can access the IPL, to make it JUMP direcly at the next command (the one that occur when that fail) using a GameShark code?

No clue.

I guess if you fail the first IPL Read (since it's at offset 0) you might get the game to think no DD is present and continue on.

I dont know anything about gameshark for n64 or how it works so I can't say for certain if you could overwrite memory or fake the n64 when it reads an addr.

[Jimmy130]

Finaly found my jumper pak, neither OOT 1.0, 1.1 or 1.2 boot with jumper pak.

So the boot sequence is not the same as F-zero

OOT look for the IPL before lookking at the expension pak :(
About Zelda OOT PAL, it works fine with or without Expansion Pak.

[kammedo]

About Zelda OOT PAL, it works fine with or without Expansion Pak.

Intresting. can you tell me the cart's CIC number?

[Matthijscoman]

Intresting. can you tell me the cart's CIC number?
Wait, do you mean you DO need an expansion pak for the US and JPN version of OOT?

[Barc0de]

as far as i know the PAL versions certainly had the DD feature removed. The DD was not intended to launch in PAL areas at all after they failed to deliver the product to japan in late 97.

[subbie]

Barc0de, there still could be some old code left in it.

The main thing is Zelda does not check for the DD via normal means like f-zero or IPL does. It actualy tries to read the DDROM durring boot. I'm still trying to hack it to see what exactly it checks for and what it does (I am not having a great week/weekend last week so I have not spent much time other then to verify it checking DDROM addrs twice (on J rom)).

As for checking Pal rom, PUKE. Pal n64 games run in 50hz which wont work here in NA (since we are 60hz).

[Barc0de]

the PAL copies of Zelda miss the special CIC chip that the others contain to communicate with the DD. There was much info about this on 64DD.net like 4 years ago, but I can't seem to find it anywhere anymore.

So, to sum things up:

Apparently the later games that were indeed confirmed to support the DD, namely NTSC copies of Zelda OoT and most probably F-zero have a special piece of hardware that is only found in these titles.

Obviously, there will be code to support the DD, and many older games, such as SuperMan 64 should contain such code (Lamborghini too, which reminds me, if anyone got any code/assets from Titus when they shut down, now is the time to share)

The conclusion so far seems to me that there *might* be a manner to access and mount the DD through code (or nintendo changed this later on perhaps to only allow games that have the special CIC?), but some games have dedicated hardware for this purpose, especially those released around the OoT time-frame, known to support the DD from publications.

What I never understood is why Pokemon Stadium 2 US(3 JAP), aka Gold n Silver, detected the expansion pak and even gave a visual status of it on the title screen, although there's no mention in the manual that it utilizes it, nor is there any Expansion Pak logo on the back of the packaging.

[subbie]

The conclusion so far seems to me that there *might* be a manner to access and mount the DD through code (or nintendo changed this later on perhaps to only allow games that have the special CIC?), but some games have dedicated hardware for this purpose, especially those released around the OoT time-frame, known to support the DD from publications.


Not quite sure what you mean nor do I support your theory. If additional special hw was required in carts to setup/access the DD then my test bed app would not work (its being booted by bomberman64 which is a fairly standard cic chip).

Maybe the cic does some security to make sure the DD is a valid device but I dont think it does any actual mounting.

Maybe i don't fully follow tho (im kind of sick).



What I never understood is why Pokemon Stadium 2 US(3 JAP), aka Gold n Silver, detected the expansion pak and even gave a visual status of it on the title screen, although there's no mention in the manual that it utilizes it, nor is there any Expansion Pak logo on the back of the packaging.

Probably left over code (much like zelda64 has left in DD code). Maybe there was plans to support the expansion pak or DD but never got finished and they did not fully remove everything out (when in crunch time, you'd be suprised what gets left in games. see assasins creed clone stuff).

[Barc0de]

Not quite sure what you mean nor do I support your theory. If additional special hw was required in carts to setup/access the DD then my test bed app would not work (its being booted by bomberman64 which is a fairly standard cic chip).

Maybe the cic does some security to make sure the DD is a valid device but I dont think it does any actual mounting.

Maybe i don't fully follow tho (im kind of sick).



Probably left over code (much like zelda64 has left in DD code). Maybe there was plans to support the expansion pak or DD but never got finished and they did not fully remove everything out (when in crunch time, you'd be suprised what gets left in games. see assasins creed clone stuff).

I mean the following:

a) that you can access the DD by software code, naturally, as you have experienced yourself, and DD support code will always be needed to make a game DD compatible

(hence why Superman and Lamborghini should contain it)

however

b) later on, Nintendo might have decided, for security reasons, to make the requirment of this special CIC chip mandatory, else the game won't be able to use the DD despite its DD support-code.

what do you think?

[DarthCloud]

http://www.dextrose.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=9692

nice thread about CIC

But i doubt that it is an CIC issue with prevent US OOT to boot since both US OOT and JAP one use 6105 CIC. And Pal use the 7105 witch is the pal equivalent.

Also game code of jap and us OOT are CZLJ & CZLE

where pal oot code is NZLP

So I think that the removed 64DD code from the pal version is the better theory.

EDIT:

Pal f-zero code is NFZP so the C vs N might no be much of a good indicated for 64DD code presence since pal f-zero are reported to not boot w/ exp. pak + 64DD

Maybe it more an indication to either the nintendo intention to realese or not expansion disk for those game in their respective region at the time those game has been realesed.

[Jimmy130]

Does someone can try Mario Party with 64DD and Expansion Pak ?

[Barc0de]

Why MarioParty?

[kammedo]

Why MarioParty?
Why not? :P
FZero X is just interfaced as a plain normal Cart. No special pins are connected (NMI,JTAG)

[Barc0de]

never heard of it mentioned in relation to the DD, that's why O_o unless they were planning expansion disks instead of gamepak sequels O_o

[kammedo]

never heard of it mentioned in relation to the DD, that's why O_o unless they were planning expansion disks instead of gamepak sequels O_o

Hey, its a mario game! You never know until you try :P

[DarthCloud]

mario party is just another game witch has a 64dd expenssion disk planned at some time but was cancelled before the end of the game devellopement like for superman 64, lamborgini, mission: impossible, pekemon stadium 1 (the jap one) and quest 64.

So I'm pretty sure that the only combo games with has made surface witch can actualy be expanded are OOT and F-Zero.